Another question conserning my research

\¯`·.¸biz¸.·´¯/ wrote:
> maaike wrote:
>
>> - what i am especially intersted in is whether beta testers can
>> actually bring about changes in the system of the game, say for
>> example, in terms of how fast or slow needs should deteriorate. just
>> to name one thing.
>
> Like I say, in order to be at a level of making decisions *that* big,
> you would need to be highly qualified/experienced and your opinion
> would probably not come cheap.

/\I wasn't very clear with that/\

What I mean is that a developer will accept reccomendations in the following
order:
1 The developers own team who are on the payroll.
2 Market analysts who make a living researching what the public want, and
then passing on the info for $$
3 Anyone who may be influential within the company (President thinks one
of the chars should be named after his grand-daughter for example)
4 Mass opinion from Testers, for example if something is blatantly wrong
within the game - "Tiger Woods becomes a white man after three rounds of
golf" sort of thing! But even a noisy majority doesnt always guarantee that
the ideas are heard.

>
biz
 >> Stay informed about: Another question conserning my research 

Thanks, this is very insightful and useful!
Cheers, Maaike.

\¯`·.¸biz¸.·´¯/ wrote:
> \¯`·.¸biz¸.·´¯/ wrote:
> > maaike wrote:
> >
> >> - what i am especially intersted in is whether beta testers can
> >> actually bring about changes in the system of the game, say for
> >> example, in terms of how fast or slow needs should deteriorate. just
> >> to name one thing.
> >
> > Like I say, in order to be at a level of making decisions *that* big,
> > you would need to be highly qualified/experienced and your opinion
> > would probably not come cheap.
>
> /\I wasn't very clear with that/\
>
> What I mean is that a developer will accept reccomendations in the following
> order:
> 1 The developers own team who are on the payroll.
> 2 Market analysts who make a living researching what the public want, and
> then passing on the info for $$
> 3 Anyone who may be influential within the company (President thinks one
> of the chars should be named after his grand-daughter for example)
> 4 Mass opinion from Testers, for example if something is blatantly wrong
> within the game - "Tiger Woods becomes a white man after three rounds of
> golf" sort of thing! But even a noisy majority doesnt always guarantee that
> the ideas are heard.
>
> >
> biz
 >> Stay informed about: Another question conserning my research 

Great! Thanks, and apologies for my general/broad/vague and layman type
of questions.
Indeed, a Dutch name.
Altough I am Belgian.
But I now happen to work in The Netherlands.

\¯`·.¸biz¸.·´¯/ wrote:
> maaike wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have another question for my case study on Wright's games.
> > I was wondering whether anyone of you could help me out on some
> > beta-testing related questions.
> > I will just list them below:
> > - how many people generally contribute to the beta testing of a game
> > such as simcity or the sims.
>
> A Game of that standing would no doubt have thousands of people running Beta
> versions to test prior to release. I often run Beta software on a second OS
> and as an example the latest thing I am testing - just a simple ad/spyware
> program - they limited the Beta downloads to 2000.
>
> > - are there different stages in the testing? and if so, are players
> > involved in all different stages? or just in the final ones?
>
> As a Beta tester (and I can only refer to my experience with software - as I
> have never been a Games tester) you should be prepared to download each
> consecutive point release as they become available. ie Run v1.0 until 1.1
> comes out, then 1.2 etc etc
> New point releases can indicate what additions are working and which are
> causing more problems than the previous release.
>
> > - what are beta testers asked to report, only the bugs or also
> > recommendations to enhance the game?
>
> Generally Beta testing is primarily to uncover bugs in the 'average running
> environment'. Some developers will welcome suggestions from testers and some
> will not, you just can't generalise.
> The normal way for bugs to be reported is through Micro$oft's own error
> reporting service (that pop-up you get when something crashes: send
> report/dont send). The developers can then request this information from
> Microsoft (I assume they must pay for it!?) so that when you use the simple
> interface of error reporting, the findings go back to the developer.
>
> > - if you can make recommendations, how often will they be granted?
>
> I can't answer that on behalf of all game/software developers.
>
> > - are beta testers in any position to make changes on the level of the
> > rule-based structure of the game? or are the changes brought forward
> > by beta testers mainly on the level of bugs, interface, and the 'look
> > and feel' of a game?
>
> Usually it is 'purely' for bug detection. They pay people a lot of money to
> come up with congruent interface and general 'feel' - so if Mr Joe Public
> turns round and says "Eh, I dont really like the buttons on the menu." I
> doubt they are going to pay much attention.
>
> > - what i am especially intersted in is whether beta testers can
> > actually bring about changes in the system of the game, say for
> > example, in terms of how fast or slow needs should deteriorate. just
> > to name one thing.
>
> Like I say, in order to be at a level of making decisions *that* big, you
> would need to be highly qualified/experienced and your opinion would
> probably not come cheap.
>
> >
> > I hope any one of you will find some time to answer any of these
> > questions.
>
> No, I have an appointment to keep, cant help you.... oops! oh well!
>
> > If you do, please indicate whether you are okay with me quoting your
> > response.
>
> No problemo.
>
> >
> > Thanks a million and hoping to hear from you all,
> > Maaike.
>
> /\ Is that a Dutch name? /\
> biz
 >> Stay informed about: Another question conserning my research 

"maaike" <maaikelauwaert.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158928912.888711.102730@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Hi all,
>
> I have another question for my case study on Wright's games.
> I was wondering whether anyone of you could help me out on some
> beta-testing related questions.
> I will just list them below:
> - how many people generally contribute to the beta testing of a game
> such as simcity or the sims.

I'm no expert, but I'd guess this varies on the company and the game.

> - are there different stages in the testing? and if so, are players
> involved in all different stages? or just in the final ones?

A program goes through many stages of testing. If you're doing it right
you're running tests even before you start coding. Then there are tools for
testing code and peer testing (and these are only the ones I know about -
and I'm not actually inside the industry). As for actual play testing you
might get a better idea of that if you wander over to MATY and look at a
game mod that is currently undergoing beta testing. Try
http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php?topic=4691.0 Here you will
be able to see that beta testers (used properly) are definately for more
than simple (if I can use such an inappropriate word) bug hunting.

> - what are beta testers asked to report, only the bugs or also
> recommendations to enhance the game?

Everything, no and yes. Of course a game is a big thing and the programmers
will only take advisement. But what can't be incorporated into the game now
might be useful for the next version/expansion/patch.

> - if you can make recommendations, how often will they be granted?

How long is a piece of string?

> - are beta testers in any position to make changes on the level of the
> rule-based structure of the game? or are the changes brought forward by
> beta testers mainly on the level of bugs, interface, and the 'look and
> feel' of a game?

You're talking about string again. I have some questions in responce. You
answer them and I'll see what I can do about answering yours. How big is the
company? Is it really beta or alpha testing? Are you talking about only the
current iteration of the game or also future iterations? What advice/changes
are being asked for by the testers. I can name you dozens of games where the
testers complained wildly that their advice on interface was ignored. I can
name one specific game where the programmers should have told the look and
feel of the game commentors to go and take a running jump and there are
_always_ bugs.

> - what i am especially intersted in is whether beta testers can
> actually bring about changes in the system of the game, say for
> example, in terms of how fast or slow needs should deteriorate. just to
> name one thing.

Of course they can. Beta Testers or Play Testers is a lot wider feild than
you are anticipating. Sure there's the people bought in to give a game a run
through, but _we're_ play testers too. Everything we report back to EA is
noticed and collated against everything else their client base is telling
them. They want us to buy their games so they try to make them do things
that will bring us back, but there's a lot of voices asking for conflicting
things and many other factors also affecting design decisions.

> I hope any one of you will find some time to answer any of these
> questions.
> If you do, please indicate whether you are okay with me quoting your
> response.

Sure you can quote me, for what my words are worth.

MM
 >> Stay informed about: Another question conserning my research 

"maaike" <maaikelauwaert RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158928912.888711.102730@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Hi all,
>
> I have another question for my case study on Wright's games.
> I was wondering whether anyone of you could help me out on some
> beta-testing related questions.
> I will just list them below:
> - how many people generally contribute to the beta testing of a game
> such as simcity or the sims.
> - are there different stages in the testing? and if so, are players
> involved in all different stages? or just in the final ones?
> - what are beta testers asked to report, only the bugs or also
> recommendations to enhance the game?
> - if you can make recommendations, how often will they be granted?
> - are beta testers in any position to make changes on the level of the
> rule-based structure of the game? or are the changes brought forward by
> beta testers mainly on the level of bugs, interface, and the 'look and
> feel' of a game?
> - what i am especially intersted in is whether beta testers can
> actually bring about changes in the system of the game, say for
> example, in terms of how fast or slow needs should deteriorate. just to
> name one thing.
>
> I hope any one of you will find some time to answer any of these
> questions.
> If you do, please indicate whether you are okay with me quoting your
> response.
>
> Thanks a million and hoping to hear from you all,
> Maaike.

I haven't betaed the Sims2 but I've bete tested a lot of online games in
various stages. There are generally 3 phases of testing.

Alpha testing. The game is being written and very little content is
actually in, most things don't work, but they'd like you to test the things
they've currently put in to see if there are any problems. Also suggestions
are wanted here.

Beta testing. The game is pretty much finished and most content is in. You
need to test everything and report anything that isn't working right.
Suggestions are usually still taken at this point.

Beta testing close to release. At this point all content is in the game.
It is a finished product and all bugs are to be looked for and reported. At
this point suggestions aren't wanted as they are pretty much done.

Some online games, especially MMORPG (Massive Mulitplayer Online Role
Playing Games) have open betas. That means that anyone and their uncle can
download the game and play it. This usually ranges from 2months to quite a
bit longer (some games done by indies remain in beta phase forever but they
are really not beta games but free games). Another reason the game
producers do this is to get clients. People who play the game before
release are more willing to buy a game they know is good then an untested
one.

There are a few websites dedicated to reporting beta games but they are
usually online games with only some single player games.
www.betawatcher.com is one of them. Ones I used to go to are www.mmorpg.com
and www.mmorpgs.com .
 >> Stay informed about: Another question conserning my research 

Hi Jim,

Thanks a lot. This really is revealing. From what I understand, it is
especially MMORPG's that are open at the alpha stage as well. I think
(correct me if I'm wrong) that games like simcity and the sims will
only be publicly tested in the beta 'black box' stage. And then it is
probably harder for suggestions on the 'core-level' to be incorporated.
But as some of you suggested, they might end up in a later game or
patch or mod. So basically, there is a huge difference between genres
of computer games in terms of the role of beta testers. What I am still
wondering about is the comment by MM on beta testers being more than
bug hunters. I mean, how to pinpoint that 'more', how to frame their
contribution? Anyway, thanks again.

Maaike.
 >> Stay informed about: Another question conserning my research 

"maaike" <maaikelauwaert.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159256240.433471.101460@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> Hi Jim,
>
> Thanks a lot. This really is revealing. From what I understand, it is
> especially MMORPG's that are open at the alpha stage as well. I think
> (correct me if I'm wrong) that games like simcity and the sims will
> only be publicly tested in the beta 'black box' stage. And then it is
> probably harder for suggestions on the 'core-level' to be incorporated.
> But as some of you suggested, they might end up in a later game or
> patch or mod. So basically, there is a huge difference between genres
> of computer games in terms of the role of beta testers. What I am still
> wondering about is the comment by MM on beta testers being more than
> bug hunters. I mean, how to pinpoint that 'more', how to frame their
> contribution? Anyway, thanks again.
>
> Maaike.

How to frame that more? Beta testers do a lot of things in addition to
testing the game, but I think the number one thing they do is get others
interested in a game. "Hey, you heard about the Sims 3? I hear it's coming
out in a few months and wondering if I should get it." "Oh, yeah, I beta
tested that. It's pretty darn good. I can't talk about it because of the
non disclosure agreement, but I'm definatly going to get it myself."

Also, beta testers start the gaming communities, websites, guilds, clans,
etc... before the game is even out. Especially MMORPGs. Once the game is
released people who buy it find that there are already sites dedicated to
the game, as well as existing clans they can join.

Beta testers also make great help desks in forums. When a game is new there
will be a million people asking how to do something, and rather than the
company personel having to reply, there will be a lot of people who played
the beta answer how to do it.

I would say the number one thing that beta testers are good for other than
actually finding bugs is the game community.
 >> Stay informed about: Another question conserning my research 

Hi Jim,

Thanks again, that is insightful for my research.
What I have always wondered though is why people invest so much time in
a game without getting paid for it. I mean, aren't the game companies
very, very lucky to be having those gamers who are doing so much work
for free?

Cheers,
Maaike.


Jim Langston wrote:
> "maaike" <maaikelauwaert RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1159256240.433471.101460@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > Thanks a lot. This really is revealing. From what I understand, it is
> > especially MMORPG's that are open at the alpha stage as well. I think
> > (correct me if I'm wrong) that games like simcity and the sims will
> > only be publicly tested in the beta 'black box' stage. And then it is
> > probably harder for suggestions on the 'core-level' to be incorporated.
> > But as some of you suggested, they might end up in a later game or
> > patch or mod. So basically, there is a huge difference between genres
> > of computer games in terms of the role of beta testers. What I am still
> > wondering about is the comment by MM on beta testers being more than
> > bug hunters. I mean, how to pinpoint that 'more', how to frame their
> > contribution? Anyway, thanks again.
> >
> > Maaike.
>
> How to frame that more? Beta testers do a lot of things in addition to
> testing the game, but I think the number one thing they do is get others
> interested in a game. "Hey, you heard about the Sims 3? I hear it's coming
> out in a few months and wondering if I should get it." "Oh, yeah, I beta
> tested that. It's pretty darn good. I can't talk about it because of the
> non disclosure agreement, but I'm definatly going to get it myself."
>
> Also, beta testers start the gaming communities, websites, guilds, clans,
> etc... before the game is even out. Especially MMORPGs. Once the game is
> released people who buy it find that there are already sites dedicated to
> the game, as well as existing clans they can join.
>
> Beta testers also make great help desks in forums. When a game is new there
> will be a million people asking how to do something, and rather than the
> company personel having to reply, there will be a lot of people who played
> the beta answer how to do it.
>
> I would say the number one thing that beta testers are good for other than
> actually finding bugs is the game community.
 >> Stay informed about: Another question conserning my research 

Umm.. they're games. People pay for games. To be able to play a game
without having to pay is great.


"maaike" <maaikelauwaert.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159459022.648433.273760@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> Hi Jim,
>
> Thanks again, that is insightful for my research.
> What I have always wondered though is why people invest so much time in
> a game without getting paid for it. I mean, aren't the game companies
> very, very lucky to be having those gamers who are doing so much work
> for free?
>
> Cheers,
> Maaike.
>
>
> Jim Langston wrote:
>> "maaike" <maaikelauwaert.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1159256240.433471.101460@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> > Hi Jim,
>> >
>> > Thanks a lot. This really is revealing. From what I understand, it is
>> > especially MMORPG's that are open at the alpha stage as well. I think
>> > (correct me if I'm wrong) that games like simcity and the sims will
>> > only be publicly tested in the beta 'black box' stage. And then it is
>> > probably harder for suggestions on the 'core-level' to be incorporated.
>> > But as some of you suggested, they might end up in a later game or
>> > patch or mod. So basically, there is a huge difference between genres
>> > of computer games in terms of the role of beta testers. What I am still
>> > wondering about is the comment by MM on beta testers being more than
>> > bug hunters. I mean, how to pinpoint that 'more', how to frame their
>> > contribution? Anyway, thanks again.
>> >
>> > Maaike.
>>
>> How to frame that more? Beta testers do a lot of things in addition to
>> testing the game, but I think the number one thing they do is get others
>> interested in a game. "Hey, you heard about the Sims 3? I hear it's
>> coming
>> out in a few months and wondering if I should get it." "Oh, yeah, I beta
>> tested that. It's pretty darn good. I can't talk about it because of
>> the
>> non disclosure agreement, but I'm definatly going to get it myself."
>>
>> Also, beta testers start the gaming communities, websites, guilds, clans,
>> etc... before the game is even out. Especially MMORPGs. Once the game
>> is
>> released people who buy it find that there are already sites dedicated to
>> the game, as well as existing clans they can join.
>>
>> Beta testers also make great help desks in forums. When a game is new
>> there
>> will be a million people asking how to do something, and rather than the
>> company personel having to reply, there will be a lot of people who
>> played
>> the beta answer how to do it.
>>
>> I would say the number one thing that beta testers are good for other
>> than
>> actually finding bugs is the game community.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Another question conserning my research