conjurer's bauble and others

David <drmdzh DeleteThis @hofstra.edu> sent:
> Newbie to magic, greetings all. A few things I can't figure out:

Conjurer's Bauble {1} Artifact
{T}, Sacrifice Conjurer's Bauble: Put up to one target card from your
graveyard on the bottom of your library. Draw a card.

> Question: Do you HAVE TO put a card from your graveyard on the bottom
> of your library, or because it says "up to" you can choose not to do
> this.

In essence, you don't have to.

When you play the ability, you choose how many targets to use, then if
you chose for it to have one target, you identify that target. Then
you pay the cost, which is tapping and sacrificing the Conjurer's Bauble.

When the ability resolves, you don't get to change your mind about
whether you put the card on the bottom of your library; if you targeted
one, you put it on the bottom of your library, otherwise you don't do
any putting and just skip to drawing a card.

> Next question:

> Playing Leonin Bola vs. Creature Tap effect

It doesn't stop the ability from happening, whichever way you try to
spin it.

Leonin Bola {1} Artifact - Equipment
/ Equipped creature has "{T}, Unattach Leonin Bola: Tap target
creature."
/ Equip {1}

> Lets say you're playing against a Heartless Hidetsugu

Heartless Hidetsugu {3}{R}{R} Legendary Creature - Ogre Shaman 4/3
/ {T}: Heartless Hidetsugu deals damage to each player equal to half
that player's life total, rounded down.

> First, can you use the Bola's effect to tap the H.H. during the upkeep
> phase so that the opponent can't use the effect.

You can play the ability that the Leonin Bola gives to the equipped
creature during an upkeep step. Your opponent can use the Heartless
Hidetsugu's activated ability during an upkeep step, too. Neither
ability is restricted to only being played in a player's main phase.
The only ability with such a restriction among these two cards is the
equip ability on the Leonin Bola. So, if you use this ability in the
opponent's upkeep step, all that does is force the opponent to use the
Heartless Hidetsugu's ability right then in response, or to be unable
to use it until the Heartless Hidetsugu untaps.

> Second, can you use the Bola's effect in response to the opponent
> tapping the H.H. to use the efffect.

Yes, you can play the ability in response. It won't stop the Heartless
Hidetsugu's ability from resolving. To see why, you need to go into a
detailed look at how priority and the stack work. In each case I'll
assume it's your own turn, although the results come out similarly for
the opponent's turn.

Scenario 1: You use the Leonin Bola ability first.

- You have priority. You play the activated ability granted by
Leonin Bola.
- Choose the creature to target
- Pay the cost of tapping the equipped creature and unattaching the
Bola
- Leonin Bola ability is now on the stack waiting to resolve.
- You pass priority.
- Your opponent plays the activated ability of Heartless Hidetsugu.
- Pays the cost of tapping the Heartless Hidetsugu
- Heartless Hidetsugu ability is now on the stack waiting to resolve.
- Your opponent passes priority.
- You pass priority.
- The top item on the stack resolves.
- Heartless Hidetsugu deals damage
- You gain and pass priority.
- Your opponent passes priority.
- The top item on the stack resolves.
- tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so nothing
happens.

Scenario 2: Opponent uses the Heartless Hidetsugu first.

- Your opponent plays the activated ability of Heartless Hidetsugu.
- Pays the cost of tapping the Heartless Hidetsugu
- Heartless Hidetsugu ability is now on the stack waiting to resolve.
- Your opponent passes priority.
- You play the activated ability granted by Leonin Bola.
- Choose the creature to target
- Pay the cost of tapping the equipped creature and unattaching the
Bola
- Leonin Bola ability is now on the stack waiting to resolve.
- You pass priority.
- Your opponent passes priority.
- The top item on the stack resolves.
- tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so nothing
happens.
- You gain and pass priority.
- Your opponent passes priority.
- The top item on the stack resolves.
- Heartless Hidetsugu deals damage

> And this applies to all creature tap effects vs. tap creature effects I
> guess.

Basically it boils down to this:

- an ability with a tap in its cost will have the tap happen when the
ability is played.
- an ability with a tap in its effect will have the tap happen when
the ability resolves.
- players always get a chance to do stuff before an ability
resolves.

Note also that even if you destroy the creature with the ability in
response, that is also not enough to stop the ability from going off.
Once it's been played, it exists independently of its source.

If you actually want to stop an ability, you have to counter it, with
a card like Voidslime:

Voidslime {G}{U}{U} Instant
Counter target spell, activated ability, or triggered ability. (Mana
abilities can't be targeted.)

--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ: http://www.boondock.org.uk/~zoe/mtgrules/ --
--
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

OK, thanks to both replies. I totally get it, until this bit in
scenario 2 (H.H. first)

> Scenario 2: Opponent uses the Heartless Hidetsugu first.
>
> - Your opponent plays the activated ability of Heartless Hidetsugu.

> - The top item on the stack resolves.
> - tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so nothing
> happens.
> - You gain and pass priority.
> - Your opponent passes priority.
> - The top item on the stack resolves.
> - Heartless Hidetsugu deals damage

If you resolve in LIFO order of the stack, then surely, by the time we
get to the "- tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so
nothing happens." bit, it can't then be tapped for its effect. It has
already been tapped by the opponent, like you wrote, "so nothing
happens." I don't get why the effect of the tap still happens if it was
tapped because of the Bola, not due to the player tapping it for the
effect. Am I making sense? Put another way, it looks like it has
already been tapped, it is a tapped creature, so you can't now tap it
for its effect.

OK, also, can you use a creature's effect that doesn't require tapping
(an affect that has a mana cost) while they are tapped?
And lastly, if a Genju (any color) is enchanting a land and that player
uses it's effect to turn it into a creature, does Ronin Warclub jump
onto it?

And lastly, lastly, where are you getting the texts of the cards you
are pasting into your replies?
Thanks
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

Aaaahh.

You see, I guess I did think that LIFO meant some kind of "going back
in time" type thing. And also, seen another way, I didn't break up the
activating, paying cost, and resolve ability into three steps, I saw it
all aas one lump thing. So in my mind, if you resolved thing from the
top of the stack, when you got down to the H.H. it would have been
tapped by the Bola, NOT by the Player tapping H.H. and therefore the
H.H. player would be trying to tap something already tapped, not the
other way around.

OK, thanks all, this clears up a lot of stuff, not just this issue.
Much appreciated.

By the way, I'm not exactly a newbie, but played Unlimited through Ice
Ages then went cold turkey, so my mind has gone a bit and the rules
weren't so codified back then, or at least not in my circle.


Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
> David <drmdzh RemoveThis @hofstra.edu> wrote:
>
> > OK, thanks to both replies. I totally get it, until this bit in
> > scenario 2 (H.H. first)
> >
> > > Scenario 2: Opponent uses the Heartless Hidetsugu first.
> > >
> > > - Your opponent plays the activated ability of Heartless Hidetsugu.
> >
> > > - The top item on the stack resolves.
> > > - tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so nothing
> > > happens.
> > > - You gain and pass priority.
> > > - Your opponent passes priority.
> > > - The top item on the stack resolves.
> > > - Heartless Hidetsugu deals damag
> >
> > If you resolve in LIFO order of the stack, then surely, by the time we
> > get to the "- tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so
> > nothing happens." bit, it can't then be tapped for its effect. It has
> > already been tapped by the opponent, like you wrote, "so nothing
> > happens." I don't get why the effect of the tap still happens if it was
> > tapped because of the Bola, not due to the player tapping it for the
> > effect. Am I making sense? Put another way, it looks like it has
> > already been tapped, it is a tapped creature, so you can't now tap it
> > for its effect.
>
> Here is a repeat of the sequence, with numbers to allow for easy
> reference:
>
> 1 Your opponent plays the activated ability of Heartless Hidetsugu.
> 1a Pays the cost of tapping the Heartless Hidetsugu
> 2 Heartless Hidetsugu ability is now on the stack waiting to resolve.
> 3 Your opponent passes priority.
> 4 You play the activated ability granted by Leonin Bola.
> 4a Choose the creature to target
> 4b Pay the cost of tapping the equipped creature and unattaching the
> Bola
> 5 Leonin Bola ability is now on the stack waiting to resolve.
> 6 You pass priority.
> 7 Your opponent passes priority.
> 8 The top item on the stack resolves.
> 8a tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so nothing
> happens.
> 9 You gain and pass priority.
> 10 Your opponent passes priority.
> 11 The top item on the stack resolves.
> 11a Heartless Hidetsugu deals damage
>
> The Heartless Hidetsugu was tapped for its effect in step 1a. Step 8a
> does NOT reach back in time and mess with that. Being tapped since 1a
> doesn't create a problem for 11 any more than being tapped since 4b
> creates a problem for 8. Not even destroying/removing the Heartless
> Hidetsugu between 1 and 11 would create a problem for the effect.
>
> Why would you expect tapping the ALREADY-TAPPED Heartless Hidetsugu in
> 8a to matter, anyway?
>
> > OK, also, can you use a creature's effect that doesn't require tapping
> > (an affect that has a mana cost) while they are tapped?
>
> Sure, why not?
>
> > And lastly, if a Genju (any color) is enchanting a land and that player
> > uses it's effect to turn it into a creature, does Ronin Warclub jump
> > onto it?
>
> No.
>
> Comes into Play
> A permanent comes into play when the card or token representing it is
> moved into the in-play zone. A permanent whose type or controller
> changes doesn't "come into play."
> Permanents come into play untapped and under the control of whoever
> put them into play.
> When a permanent comes into play, first apply any replacement
> effects, then apply continuous effects, then check to determine if the
> current form of the permanent generates any triggered abilities.
> Example: If an instruction causes something to come into play tapped, it
> isn't put into play untapped and then tapped.
>
> --
> Daniel W. Johnson
> panoptes RemoveThis @iquest.net
> http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
> 039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

David <drmdzh.RemoveThis@hofstra.edu> wrote:

> OK, thanks to both replies. I totally get it, until this bit in
> scenario 2 (H.H. first)
>
> > Scenario 2: Opponent uses the Heartless Hidetsugu first.
> >
> > - Your opponent plays the activated ability of Heartless Hidetsugu.
>
> > - The top item on the stack resolves.
> > - tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so nothing
> > happens.
> > - You gain and pass priority.
> > - Your opponent passes priority.
> > - The top item on the stack resolves.
> > - Heartless Hidetsugu deals damage
>
> If you resolve in LIFO order of the stack, then surely, by the time we
> get to the "- tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so
> nothing happens." bit, it can't then be tapped for its effect. It has
> already been tapped by the opponent, like you wrote, "so nothing
> happens." I don't get why the effect of the tap still happens if it was
> tapped because of the Bola, not due to the player tapping it for the
> effect. Am I making sense? Put another way, it looks like it has
> already been tapped, it is a tapped creature, so you can't now tap it
> for its effect.

Here is a repeat of the sequence, with numbers to allow for easy
reference:

1 Your opponent plays the activated ability of Heartless Hidetsugu.
1a Pays the cost of tapping the Heartless Hidetsugu
2 Heartless Hidetsugu ability is now on the stack waiting to resolve.
3 Your opponent passes priority.
4 You play the activated ability granted by Leonin Bola.
4a Choose the creature to target
4b Pay the cost of tapping the equipped creature and unattaching the
Bola
5 Leonin Bola ability is now on the stack waiting to resolve.
6 You pass priority.
7 Your opponent passes priority.
8 The top item on the stack resolves.
8a tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so nothing
happens.
9 You gain and pass priority.
10 Your opponent passes priority.
11 The top item on the stack resolves.
11a Heartless Hidetsugu deals damage

The Heartless Hidetsugu was tapped for its effect in step 1a. Step 8a
does NOT reach back in time and mess with that. Being tapped since 1a
doesn't create a problem for 11 any more than being tapped since 4b
creates a problem for 8. Not even destroying/removing the Heartless
Hidetsugu between 1 and 11 would create a problem for the effect.

Why would you expect tapping the ALREADY-TAPPED Heartless Hidetsugu in
8a to matter, anyway?

> OK, also, can you use a creature's effect that doesn't require tapping
> (an affect that has a mana cost) while they are tapped?

Sure, why not?

> And lastly, if a Genju (any color) is enchanting a land and that player
> uses it's effect to turn it into a creature, does Ronin Warclub jump
> onto it?

No.

Comes into Play
A permanent comes into play when the card or token representing it is
moved into the in-play zone. A permanent whose type or controller
changes doesn't "come into play."
Permanents come into play untapped and under the control of whoever
put them into play.
When a permanent comes into play, first apply any replacement
effects, then apply continuous effects, then check to determine if the
current form of the permanent generates any triggered abilities.
Example: If an instruction causes something to come into play tapped, it
isn't put into play untapped and then tapped.

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes.RemoveThis@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

On 1 Oct 2006 10:01:14 -0700, David <drmdzh.DeleteThis@hofstra.edu> wrote:
>OK, thanks to both replies. I totally get it, until this bit in
>scenario 2 (H.H. first)
>
>> Scenario 2: Opponent uses the Heartless Hidetsugu first.
>>
>> - Your opponent plays the activated ability of Heartless Hidetsugu.

Which includes tapping it as the activation cost.

>> - The top item on the stack resolves.
>> - tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so nothing
>> happens.
>> - You gain and pass priority.
>> - Your opponent passes priority.
>> - The top item on the stack resolves.
>> - Heartless Hidetsugu deals damage
>
>If you resolve in LIFO order of the stack, then surely, by the time we
>get to the "- tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so
>nothing happens." bit, it can't then be tapped for its effect.

It -already was- tapped, way back when its ability was announced. (The 'effect'
is what an ability or spell _does_ on resolution; the effect is NOT the
ability or the spell itself.) The HH does not tap itself AGAIN on resolution;
on resolution, all the effect of its ability does is check each player's
life total, divide those numbers in half and round down, then deal that much
damage respectively to each player.

And remember, you were using Leonin Bola, which gives a creature an activated
_ability_ whose _cost_ includes tapping THAT creature, and whose _effect_ is
tapping the TARGET creature. There are two taps involved in the Bola's ability,
on opposite ends of its life cycle. Here, the Bola is not _on_ the HH - it's
on some other random creature that was never named by you or Zoe in your
Situation 2, which you control. _That_ creature gets tapped on announcement
of the Bola ability, and the HH gets picked as a target. Later, on resolution,
the ability checks the HH is still a legal target (yes), resolves, and says
"Tap you!" to the HH ... as its EFFECT. The cost was paid some time ago and
didn't involve the HH at all. The effect says "I'm tapping you" to the HH,
which says "I'm already in the tapped position, d00d" back. The effect says
"Oh. Um, tapping you with my effect does Nothing Visible to you. I'm still
doing it. There, I did it.", and the HH says "That's nice, nothing much
happened to me.".

>I don't get why the effect of the tap still happens if it was
>tapped because of the Bola, not due to the player tapping it for the
>effect.

The effect still happens because nothing -countered the Bola-granted ability-.
The target was legal on resolution; the ability wasn't Stifled or otherwise
countered; so the ability resolved. Resolving it made the "Tap the HH" effect,
which got applied... and which Does Nothing Visible, since the HH is already
sideways and has been for a while. Failing to do anything visible does NOT
mean the ability was countered, or that the effect Never Happened - it just
means that what the effect tried to do made no difference to the game state.

>Am I making sense? Put another way, it looks like it has
>already been tapped, it is a tapped creature, so you can't now tap it
>for its effect.

You are confusing yourself with your terminology. "Tap it for its effect"
is usually used by players to denote something that's ACTUALLY called "playing
a tap-cost activated ability". The effect of the Bola's granted ability is
tapping the HH ... which is already tapped, from paying the COST of the HH
ability. The cost of the _Bola_ ability tapped the unnamed creature. What got
'tapped for the effect of' the Bola was the unnamed creature - that creature is
what got tapped to pay the ACTIVATION COST of the Bola-granted ability.

Thus, you're using the wrong terminology, and are unable to disentangle what's
going on because the words you're using are pointing you in the wrong
direction. The _cost_ of an ability is paid on announcement; its effect happens
on resolution; and saying "tapping it for its effect" when you MEAN "playing
its ability" makes you think this is somehow happening on resolution, and that
the Bola's "Tap target creature" is somehow a cost, neither of which is true.

>OK, also, can you use a creature's effect that doesn't require tapping
>(an affect that has a mana cost) while they are tapped?

Sure. ["effect".] If you can pay the activation cost of the -ability- (not
'effect', there's the confusion sneaking in again), and have priority, and
nothing else is stopping you (like 'no legal targets' or 'it says to play it
only any time you could play a sorcery, and it's not my turn'), then you can
play the ability. You can't pay a Tap activation cost with a tapped creature...
but an activation cost that doesn't have Tap in it doesn't care whether the
permanent it's on is tapped or not.

>And lastly, if a Genju (any color) is enchanting a land and that player
>uses it's effect to turn it into a creature, does Ronin Warclub jump
>onto it?

Ronin Warclub 3 Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gets +2/+1. / Whenever a creature comes into play under your
control, attach ~ to that creature. / Equip 5 (*)

Nope.

No creature came into play. No land LEFT play either. A land IN play turned
into a land creature in play; this doesn't involve anything leaving or entering
play, it just involves a permanent changing what it looks like. So nothing
happens that would trigger the Warclub's triggered ability.

If the Warclub said "Whenever a creature comes into play under your control or
a permanent you control becomes a creature", then yeah, sure, it would trigger.
But it doesn't say that.

>And lastly, lastly, where are you getting the texts of the cards you
>are pasting into your replies?

Oracle. Oracle is your friend, and can be looked into through the Gatherer
database, at gatherer.wizards.com - it contains the texts of ALL magic cards
(except one, and when are they going to FIX that, Zoe?) as they would be
worded under today's rules, templates, and keywords. If you grab the entire
Oracle in text form, it's only 1.9 megabytes at this point... and it's
extraordinarily useful to have handy if you're having card wording questions
or rules interaction questions. (As is the current rulebook.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd.DeleteThis@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

David <drmdzh DeleteThis @hofstra.edu> sent:
> OK, thanks to both replies. I totally get it, until this bit in
> scenario 2 (H.H. first)

> > Scenario 2: Opponent uses the Heartless Hidetsugu first.
> >
> > - Your opponent plays the activated ability of Heartless Hidetsugu.

> > - The top item on the stack resolves.
> > - tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so nothing
> > happens.
> > - You gain and pass priority.
> > - Your opponent passes priority.
> > - The top item on the stack resolves.
> > - Heartless Hidetsugu deals damage

> If you resolve in LIFO order of the stack, then surely, by the time we
> get to the "- tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, but it's already tapped, so
> nothing happens." bit, it can't then be tapped for its effect.

You didn't quote the bit about paying the cost of the Heartless
Hidetsugu ability - I hope it came through alright when you read the
post. At the point where the Leonin Bola-granted ability resolves, the
Heartless Hidetsugu is already tapped. It got tapped way back when its
controller played its activated ability. That's how it works, you pay
the cost when things go up onto the stack, and their effects happen
when they resolve back off the stack. The cost of the Heartless
Hidetsugu ability is to tap the Heartless Hidetsugu, so you do this
when you pay the cost of that ability - just after you announce it, and
before anyone (even its controller) gets a chance to respond.

The effect of the Heartless Hidetsugu, the bit where it deals damage,
happens way later, when its ability resolves off the stack. That
doesn't happen until all of the responses to the ability have been
played and have resolved, and the only way to stop it from happening
is to counter the ability.

> It has
> already been tapped by the opponent, like you wrote, "so nothing
> happens." I don't get why the effect of the tap still happens if it was
> tapped because of the Bola, not due to the player tapping it for the
> effect. Am I making sense? Put another way, it looks like it has
> already been tapped, it is a tapped creature, so you can't now tap it
> for its effect.

You're still confused, I think, about the difference between paying a
cost and resolving a spell or ability. Costs all happen together, as
part of the process of getting the spell or ability onto the stack. It
sits on the stack while players respond to it with whatever else they
want to do in response. Then it resolves. The tap in the Heartless
Hidetsugu's ability is the tap-symbol to the left of the colon, so it's
part of the cost and it happens when the ability gets played and put
onto the stack. By the time anyone can respond, it's already played,
already paid for, already tapped.

> OK, also, can you use a creature's effect that doesn't require tapping
> (an affect that has a mana cost) while they are tapped?

Yes, that's fine. There used to be complicated rules that stopped some
things from working when they were tapped, but we simplified it and
made sure that any time it doesn't work when tapped, it's written right
there on the card.

> And lastly, if a Genju (any color) is enchanting a land and that player
> uses it's effect to turn it into a creature, does Ronin Warclub jump
> onto it?

No.

Ronin Warclub {3} Artifact - Equipment
/ Equipped creature gets +2/+1.
/ Whenever a creature comes into play under your control, attach Ronin
Warclub to that creature.
/ Equip {5}

Ronin Warclub's triggered ability triggers whenever a creature comes
into play under your control. If you animate a Genju, that changes a
land that's _already in play_ into a creature. Nothing actually moved
from a non-in-play zone to an in-play zone. Something has to actually
move from another zone into the in-play zone (e.g. card from your
graveyard into play, or spell from the stack becoming a creature in
play) to trigger the Ronin Warclub triggered ability.

> And lastly, lastly, where are you getting the texts of the cards you
> are pasting into your replies?

I get them from the Oracle output of the Gatherer database:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/

I then reformat the text to eliminate any unnecessary reminder text and
keep the entry as short as possible. The Oracle text is the official
card text for the card under the current ruleset; for older cards you
need to use this text rather than the text on the card to make them
work properly under the current rules.

--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ: http://www.boondock.org.uk/~zoe/mtgrules/ --
--
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

Zoe Stephenson <usenet RemoveThis @daeghnao.com> wrote:
>> OK, also, can you use a creature's effect that doesn't require tapping
>> (an affect that has a mana cost) while they are tapped?
>
>Yes, that's fine. There used to be complicated rules that stopped some
>things from working when they were tapped, but we simplified it and
>made sure that any time it doesn't work when tapped, it's written right
>there on the card.

In fact, since he's mentioned he originally played UL-IA, specifically the
old "tapped artifacts turn off" rule has been gone for several years now.
There are still a few artifacts that turn off when tapped - but now their
text SAYS this specifically. (He can use his newfound knowledge of
gatherer.wizards.com to look up Howling Mine and Winter Orb, the two
remaining ones from his era that got that text-change...)

(Psst: tapped blockers deal combat damage normally now, too.)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd RemoveThis @vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

David DeLaney <dbd.RemoveThis@gatekeeper.vic.com> sent:
> database, at gatherer.wizards.com - it contains the texts of ALL magic cards
> (except one, and when are they going to FIX that, Zoe?) as they would be

Which one? There are a lot of things going on with Oracle at the
moment...

--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ: http://www.boondock.org.uk/~zoe/mtgrules/ --
--
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

Zoe Stephenson <usenet DeleteThis @daeghnao.com> wrote:
>David DeLaney <dbd DeleteThis @gatekeeper.vic.com> sent:
>> database, at gatherer.wizards.com - it contains the texts of ALL magic cards
>> (except one, and when are they going to FIX that, Zoe?) as they would be
>
>Which one? There are a lot of things going on with Oracle at the
>moment...

<stage whisper>Super Secret Tech</whisper>

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd DeleteThis @vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

David DeLaney <dbd.TakeThisOut@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> <stage whisper>Super Secret Tech</whisper>

But then, it wouldn't be a Super Secret, now would it?
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes.TakeThisOut@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

David DeLaney wrote:
> Zoe Stephenson <usenet.RemoveThis@daeghnao.com> wrote:
> >David DeLaney <dbd.RemoveThis@gatekeeper.vic.com> sent:
> >> database, at gatherer.wizards.com - it contains the texts of ALL magic cards
> >> (except one, and when are they going to FIX that, Zoe?) as they would be
> >
> >Which one? There are a lot of things going on with Oracle at the
> >moment...
>
> <stage whisper>Super Secret Tech</whisper>
>
> Dave
> --
> \/David DeLaney posting from dbd.RemoveThis@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
> It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
> Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
> http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

What about the Throat Wolf? I don't see that in there.

James, wondering a)who remembers the Throat Wolf and b)who knows which
of its abilities later became reality.
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

<Hampmeister DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1160058393.843799.78110@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> David DeLaney wrote:
>> Zoe Stephenson <usenet DeleteThis @daeghnao.com> wrote:
>> >David DeLaney <dbd DeleteThis @gatekeeper.vic.com> sent:
>> >> database, at gatherer.wizards.com - it contains the texts of ALL magic
>> >> cards
>> >> (except one, and when are they going to FIX that, Zoe?) as they would
>> >> be
>> >
>> >Which one? There are a lot of things going on with Oracle at the
>> >moment...
>>
>> <stage whisper>Super Secret Tech</whisper>
>>
>> Dave
>> --
>> \/David DeLaney posting from dbd DeleteThis @vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the
>> flower
>> It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone
>> to see
>> Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET
>> VRbeable<BLINK>
>> http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all
>> CAPS! --K.
>
> What about the Throat Wolf? I don't see that in there.
>
> James, wondering a)who remembers the Throat Wolf and b)who knows which
> of its abilities later became reality.

Well, they even had several goes...Just look at Talruum Champion and then
Fireshrieker...
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others 

"Hampmeister@gmail.com" <Hampmeister.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1160058393.843799.78110@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>
> David DeLaney wrote:
>> Zoe Stephenson <usenet.TakeThisOut@daeghnao.com> wrote:
>> >David DeLaney <dbd.TakeThisOut@gatekeeper.vic.com> sent:
>> >> database, at gatherer.wizards.com - it contains the texts of ALL
>> >> magic cards (except one, and when are they going to FIX that,
>> >> Zoe?) as they would be
>> >
>> >Which one? There are a lot of things going on with Oracle at the
>> >moment...
>>
>> <stage whisper>Super Secret Tech</whisper>
>>
>> Dave
>> --
>> \/David DeLaney posting from dbd.TakeThisOut@vic.com "It's not the
>> pot that grows the flower It's not the clock that slows the
>> hour The definition's plain for anyone to see Love is all it
>> takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET
>> VRbeable<BLINK> http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic /
>> I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
>
> What about the Throat Wolf? I don't see that in there.
>
> James, wondering a)who remembers the Throat Wolf and b)who knows which
> of its abilities later became reality.
>

ummm... firster strike? -dna
 >> Stay informed about: conjurer's bauble and others