Some combat questions

richard d wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Still trying to get my head around 3.5 combat rules. Grateful if anyone
> could let me know whether I've got this right.
>
> Just looking at reach and AoO:
>
> A chararacter with a normal weapon has a reach of 5 foot. This means he
> threatens any square next to him, including diagonals and including
> (strangely) squares behind him. Is that right?

Yes: its not strange because mid-combat, a miniature's facing doesn't
affect which way you are looking (which is why you can use a nut, as
one of our players did for close to a year). You are assumed to be
moving and looking around constantly: if you don't see someone within
line of sight, it was because they were actively using the Hide skill.

>
> A character with a reach weapon threatens squares one away from him,
> but not the ones next to him. Does this include double-diagonals, and
> again what about the squares behind him.

There's a diagram at the back of the DMG.

>
> A monster with extended reach, like an ogre, threatens squares both
> next to him and one away. Same questions as above apply.
>

Same answers.

>
> 1) You can stop 10' away this round. You can't attack him, he can
> attack you. But next round you could move a 5' step without getting an
> AoO.
>
> 2) You can stop 5' away, which means you get an AoO, but then you can
> attack him.
>
> Either way, (1) or (2), if you approach an opponent with reach, he's
> going to hit you first.
>

Another tactic to ensure you have some cover as you approach: since
reach wepons use the cover rules for ranged weapons, if you can get
another character (even the reacher's ally) between you and the reacher
at some point in your journey towards them, they don't get an attack of
opportunity, due to the third party providing soft cover.

> Obviously two creatures with reach can fight each other 10' away.
>
> If you're holding a reach weapon and an opponent closes to 5' away, you
> can drop your weapon as a free action, draw a new weapon as a move
> action, and then attack (once) as a standard action. Therefore it's a
> perfectly good tactic to use spear and sword (say), where you start
> with a spear to make sure you get first hit and then switch to sword
> when you close. The only disadvantage to doing this is that on the
> round you (or your opponent) closes you will only get a standard action
> attack rather than a full action attack.
>

Yes but there's not a wide choice of one-handed reach wepaons.

> Does that all make sense?


Hope my replies do: had to type this in a rush...

>
> Cheers
>
> Richard
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions 

> A chararacter with a normal weapon has a reach of 5 foot. This means he
> threatens any square next to him, including diagonals and including
> (strangely) squares behind him. Is that right?

Yes. Ever see "Dragonheart"? Or Lord of the Rings? Think the scenes where
the chars also fight opponents directly behind them (or 5th Element, in the
Diva fight scene). Means they can attack someone directly behind them if
necessary...

> A character with a reach weapon threatens squares one away from him,
> but not the ones next to him. Does this include double-diagonals, and
> again what about the squares behind him.

Yes on both counts, from memory only... like a monk wielding a longspear...
he could strike opponents all around him (Jackie Chan style).

> A monster with extended reach, like an ogre, threatens squares both
> next to him and one away. Same questions as above apply.

Again, yes. Monsters with extended reach are identical to monsters without;
simply they have greater arm (or tentacle, or claw) length.

> You get an AoO against an opponenet which moves out (not in) of a
> square that you threaten, unless that move is a "five foot step".

Yep.

> A "five foot step" is defined as a move of one square when that is the
> only movement you have performed in that round. A "five foot step" can
> be taken at any point in that round - i.e. you can intersperse it
> however you like with your full round action, standard action or move
> action (which couldn't actually be a move since that would invalidate
> your five foot step).

Full-round action, attack-equivalent standard action, and move-equivalent
standard action. Move-equivalent actions can include loading a crossbow, for
example.

> If you approach a character or monster with reach, you will provoke an
> AoO as you move from 2 squares away to 1 square away, since you will be
> moving out of his threatened square albeit to one which is closer.

Yes; unless such is a 5-foot step. In which case, he don't get an AoO.

> So, if you approach someone with reach you have two options:
>
> 1) You can stop 10' away this round. You can't attack him, he can
> attack you. But next round you could move a 5' step without getting an
> AoO.

Unless you have a reach weapon, ie; the aforementioned longspear. the Quick
Draw feat could come in handy here...

> 2) You can stop 5' away, which means you get an AoO, but then you can
> attack him.

Yes. Great for characters who get bonuses VS AoO, or those unlikely to get
hit (aka; heavily armoured fighter, etc).

> Either way, (1) or (2), if you approach an opponent with reach, he's
> going to hit you first.

Hit -at- you, anyway.

> If you're holding a reach weapon and an opponent closes to 5' away, you
> can drop your weapon as a free action, draw a new weapon as a move
> action, and then attack (once) as a standard action. Therefore it's a
> perfectly good tactic to use spear and sword (say), where you start
> with a spear to make sure you get first hit and then switch to sword
> when you close. The only disadvantage to doing this is that on the
> round you (or your opponent) closes you will only get a standard action
> attack rather than a full action attack.

Yes; another option is to do that, with a team-mate standing right behind
you with a reach weapon to make another full attack against them in the same
round. Then after that, you have normal attack resolution.

Another option is to have a single one-handed weapon (say a sword), and a
tower shield. Then, you get a full attack against them when they come close,
your buddy with the reach weapon -also- gets a full attack against them, you
have cover against certain attacks, you have a much higher AC, and all
around the bad-guy looks about as bad off (one standard attack less).

> Does that all make sense?

Yes indeed.

> Cheers
>
> Richard

--U

Maybe I like tower shields too much...
>
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions 

richard d wrote:

> Just looking at reach and AoO:

> So, if you approach someone with reach you have two options:
>
> 1) You can stop 10' away this round. You can't attack him, he can
> attack you. But next round you could move a 5' step without getting an
> AoO.

Bad idea, he'll attack and 5'-step away, leaving you at 15' and
still ready to eat an AoO.

> 2) You can stop 5' away, which means you get an AoO, but then you can
> attack him.

3) You can stop 15' away, let him close to 10' and attack, /then/
step in and attack.

> Either way, (1) or (2), if you approach an opponent with reach, he's
> going to hit you first.

Normally spot on, that's the whole idea of reach weapons. Worth a
note that he can't use an AoO if he's flatfooted or otherwise unable to
threaten others for now.

With this advantage it can be better to ready your attack with a
reach weapon, getting the readied attack _and_ the AoO. You need to give
them a reason to close though, like a nice juicy spellcaster right
behind you.


> If you're holding a reach weapon and an opponent closes to 5' away,

It's often easiest to just take your 5'-step away and keep
attacking, with quickdraw being a handy alternative. Bow switched to
readied longspear switched to greatsword can be a nice combo.

> Does that all make sense?

Yep, you've got it pretty well.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions 

richard d wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Still trying to get my head around 3.5 combat rules. Grateful if anyone
> could let me know whether I've got this right.
>
> Just looking at reach and AoO:
>
> A chararacter with a normal weapon has a reach of 5 foot. This means he
> threatens any square next to him, including diagonals and including
> (strangely) squares behind him. Is that right?

Yes--there is no "behind" in 3.xE, everyone is always assumed to be
weaving, dodging, and maneuvering for the best angle of attack and
defense.

> A character with a reach weapon threatens squares one away from him,
> but not the ones next to him. Does this include double-diagonals, and
> again what about the squares behind him.

1)Imagine a grid.

2)Assuming standard characters and weaponry (5 foot)

Without reach weapons, an individual threatens the 8 squares
surrounding him (and the square he's in, but it doesn't come up). With
reach weapons, an individual ignores the square he's in, and the 8
surrounding squares, but threatens the 16 squares surrounding those
initial 9.

> A monster with extended reach, like an ogre, threatens squares both
> next to him and one away. Same questions as above apply.

As I understand it, it depends on the size of the monster. Large
monsters have natural reach 10', even bigger ones have more reach.

> You get an AoO against an opponenet which moves out (not in) of a
> square that you threaten, unless that move is a "five foot step".

Or a full round disengagement.

> A "five foot step" is defined as a move of one square when that is the
> only movement you have performed in that round.

Not quite. There's another 5' step that's a full round action to get
out of thick brush or otherwise difficult terrain. This is different,
and can provoke AoOs, which is why I prefer to call the regular 5' step
a "tactical step." Of course, I also allow larger "tactical steps" for
big creatures, but I'm special.

> A "five foot step" can be taken at any point in that round - i.e. you can intersperse it
> however you like with your full round action, standard action or move
> action (which couldn't actually be a move since that would invalidate
> your five foot step).

"Move Equivalent Action"--like standing from prone or the like. They're
just called "move actions" for brevity.

I think that's right; hang on a minute--I've been kicked offline for
some reason . . .

Y'see, there's this nice website ( http://d20srd.org ) which has the
full System Resource Document and a couple of other Open Game resources
in html. Great for checking rules, but it's not quite the same as
what's in the books. Soon as I'm online . . .

Okay. According to te srd, yes, you can perform a tactical step at any
time during your turn, provided a) you don't do anything that
constitute actual movement, and b) your move speed is greater than 5'.

> If you approach a character or monster with reach, you will provoke an
> AoO as you move from 2 squares away to 1 square away, since you will be
> moving out of his threatened square albeit to one which is closer.

Yes.

> So, if you approach someone with reach you have two options:
>
> 1) You can stop 10' away this round. You can't attack him, he can
> attack you. But next round you could move a 5' step without getting an
> AoO.

Yes, but that's not a good idea unless he can't walk away from you.

> 2) You can stop 5' away, which means you get an AoO, but then you can
> attack him.

3) You can approach of to 15' away, he'll close in to 10' to attack
you, and then you close in to 5' to attack *him*.

Or, 4) You can used a ranged weapon.

> Either way, (1) or (2), if you approach an opponent with reach, he's
> going to hit you first.

Pretty much, which is why spears and longer swords existed in real
life.

Of course, it's possible to cause the spear-wielder to be flat-footed
during the combat, which would keep him from initiating AoOs.

> Obviously two creatures with reach can fight each other 10' away.

Yes.

> If you're holding a reach weapon and an opponent closes to 5' away, you
> can drop your weapon as a free action, draw a new weapon as a move
> action, and then attack (once) as a standard action. Therefore it's a
> perfectly good tactic to use spear and sword (say), where you start
> with a spear to make sure you get first hit and then switch to sword
> when you close. The only disadvantage to doing this is that on the
> round you (or your opponent) closes you will only get a standard action
> attack rather than a full action attack.

But at low levels, presuming you can afford it, it's not a bad tactic.
Hell, it's not so bad a tactic at higher levels, as long as you realize
that most every option has its drawbacks.

> Does that all make sense?

You seem to have it all right.

Now, I challenge you to read and understand the grappling rules on your
first try!!!!

> If someone is attacking me with a spear, 10' away, should I be allowed
> to sunder the spear with my sword? What about disarm?

I wouldn't have a problem with either.

> If the ogre is attacking me with his fists and he's 10' away, should I
> not be able to hit his hands and arms?

Yeah, but the combat model assumes that any such damage probably
wouldn't count toward disabling your opponent. I suppose you could
adjust the touch attack rules to kludge it, though.

> What happens when we go 3-D?

It's like a TV or computer or movie screen: the illusion of 3D from a
2D surface.

> I'm going to attack my party with a wyvern, which is going to swoop
> down, grab someone, then drop them from a height. Tactics for my wyvern
> are as follows:
>
> I can fly 60' per round, double that when charging. I can also fly-by
> attack.
>
> So I start 60' diagonally away, which is about 40' along and 40' up. On
> my initiative I charge in, hit my target with 1 talon. If I succeed I
> make a grapple check straight away. If I succeed, I've got him. Either
> way I now fly 60' diagonally away, ending up 40' along on the other
> side and again 40' up.

Well, you can't charge as a fly-by attack. Even if you could, a
dive-bomb charge would continue your straight-line movement . . .
straight into the ground. Whoops. I'd try to take in some of the
vehicle combat rules from D20 Modern or a similar system and modify
them for flying animals.

Barring that, you'd have to split it all up into a two or more round
sequence.

> Next round I loop the loop as a double move in a sort of mirror image
> of what I've just done to end up back in my starting position. I drop
> my victim on the way, and away from the combat so I don't drop him back
> on my own head, so just as I start looping back, which I figure
> generously is a 50' drop.
>
> Next round I do it all again.
>
> Where do the AoOs happen?

When you leave a square that an opponent threatens, and when you
attempt to initiate a grapple (unless you have certain feats, but I
can't remember them all, and not all of them are in the SRD), just like
in 2D or 2.5D battles.

Oh, and if you do charge in, you'd initiate an AoO against the target.
Just like a 2D or 2.5D battle.

> My guess is that anyone with a reach wepon who is standing next to my
> intended victim could get one.

Yeah, and if the victim is conscious, he would too.

> Or, if the victim is prone, anyone with a normal weapon standing next
> to my victim.

Yes.

> Which then begs the question, can my opponent throw himself on the
> ground as he sees me closing in?

I think this would be called a fighting defensively or a total defense
option (that likely results in the target going prone). Or he could
Ready an action if he sees it coming and acts first in the initiative
order.

However, by the rules, he'd actually be easier to attack if he's prone.

> I assume that if he does I could either pull out of the attack or go for it anyway with
> AoOs coming from normally armed friends standing next to him.

I'd call for some sort of flying check to see if the wyvern pulls out
of the dive prematurely.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions 

richard d wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Still trying to get my head around 3.5 combat rules. Grateful if
> anyone could let me know whether I've got this right.
>
> Just looking at reach and AoO:
>
> A chararacter with a normal weapon has a reach of 5 foot. This means
> he threatens any square next to him, including diagonals and including
> (strangely) squares behind him. Is that right?

One thing that's worth getting your head around for 3.5 is that there is no
"behind him". Characters are not assumed to concentrate all their attention
in one direction for six seconds at a time - instead, they can turn about at
a moment's notice as necessary, and even when fighting someone in front of
them, are still 'checking their six' often enough to respond to another
attacker's approach.

This improved vigilance can be exploited by multiple opponents who take
positions on opposite sides of a character, flanking him. Whilst doing so,
they gain bonuses to attack him, and if can sneak attack him if they have
the sneak attack class feature.

There are more-or-less no circumstances in 3.5 when it is necessary to
either know or declare which way a character is facing.

--
Mark.
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions 

richard d wrote:
> Further on the above:
>
> If someone is attacking me with a spear, 10' away, should I be allowed
> to sunder the spear with my sword? What about disarm?
>
> If the ogre is attacking me with his fists and he's 10' away, should I
> not be able to hit his hands and arms?

Strictly by the rules as written, no. The FAQ suggests that such actions
might be possible, if you Ready an action for when the opponent attacks you.

> What happens when we go 3-D?
>
> I'm going to attack my party with a wyvern, which is going to swoop
> down, grab someone, then drop them from a height. Tactics for my
> wyvern are as follows:
>
> I can fly 60' per round, double that when charging. I can also fly-by
> attack.
>
> So I start 60' diagonally away, which is about 40' along and 40' up.
> On my initiative I charge in, hit my target with 1 talon. If I
> succeed I make a grapple check straight away. If I succeed, I've got
> him. Either way I now fly 60' diagonally away, ending up 40' along on
> the other side and again 40' up.

Not quite. First of all, you cannot Charge as part of a flyby attack action,
only use a normal move action. Second, even if you were using Ride-by
Attack, which does allow charging, you must continue your movement in a
straight line, and in this case a straight line would take you underground.

You could fly in from 30 feet away, make a normal attack, then fly another
30 feet. If you have Improved Grab or Snatch, you may attempt to grapple
your opponent as part of that action. If you take -20 on the Grapple check,
you are not considered grappled yourself and can therefore continue moving,
assuming you are able to carry the target creature without exceeding your
weight limit for flying.

> Next round I loop the loop as a double move in a sort of mirror image
> of what I've just done to end up back in my starting position. I drop
> my victim on the way, and away from the combat so I don't drop him
> back on my own head, so just as I start looping back, which I figure
> generously is a 50' drop.
>
> Next round I do it all again.
>
> Where do the AoOs happen?

Any time you leave a threatened square you will provoke an AoO. This
includes AoOs from your intended target if the grapple attempt fails, unless
you have Improved Flyby Attack.

> Which then begs the question, can my opponent throw himself on the
> ground as he sees me closing in?

Only if he has a round's advance notice of your approach, or anticipates the
attack. He can either throw himself prone on his action, or Ready an action
to either go prone or dodge aside as you swoop in. However, technically
being prone does not provide any bonus against aerial attacks, and will in
fact make the subject easier to attack.

--
Mark.
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions 

In article <4iuq51F5hr8dU1.TakeThisOut@individual.net>,
"Mark Blunden" <markATmarkdbDOTplusDOTcom.TakeThisOut@address.invalid> wrote:

> richard d wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Still trying to get my head around 3.5 combat rules. Grateful if
> > anyone could let me know whether I've got this right.
> >
> > Just looking at reach and AoO:
> >
> > A chararacter with a normal weapon has a reach of 5 foot. This means
> > he threatens any square next to him, including diagonals and including
> > (strangely) squares behind him. Is that right?
>
> One thing that's worth getting your head around for 3.5 is that there is no
> "behind him". Characters are not assumed to concentrate all their attention
> in one direction for six seconds at a time - instead, they can turn about at
> a moment's notice as necessary, and even when fighting someone in front of
> them, are still 'checking their six' often enough to respond to another
> attacker's approach.

Not always easy to remember or envision in the midst of combat, but an
important thing to get used to keeping in mind!

> This improved vigilance can be exploited by multiple opponents who take
> positions on opposite sides of a character, flanking him. Whilst doing so,
> they gain bonuses to attack him, and if can sneak attack him if they have
> the sneak attack class feature.
>
> There are more-or-less no circumstances in 3.5 when it is necessary to
> either know or declare which way a character is facing.

This represents how difficult it is, and how skillful a person needs to
be, to sneak up on someone. Decent.

- E
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions 

Thanks to everyone for their replies.

I'd just like to pursue this wyvern attack a bit.

I believe, in my heart of hearts, that a wyvern should be able to fly
along, grab someone and fly off again. We all saw it in Return of the
King I seem to remember seeing harpies doing this in Jason and The
Argonauts too, with a sort of hover down attack.

So how does a wyvern do it? Having to take -20 on a grapple check just
looks to me like it can't. Taking it over 2 rounds doesn't seem right
either.

A couple of people have also mentioned this rule about straight lines
and charging. I think this rule needs adjusting for 3d. I would like to
suggest that a flying creature should be able to charge using a
suitably shallow dive.

What do you think?

Richard
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions 

richard d wrote:
> Thanks to everyone for their replies.
>
> I'd just like to pursue this wyvern attack a bit.
>
> I believe, in my heart of hearts, that a wyvern should be able to fly
> along, grab someone and fly off again. We all saw it in Return of the
> King I seem to remember seeing harpies doing this in Jason and The
> Argonauts too, with a sort of hover down attack.
>
> So how does a wyvern do it? Having to take -20 on a grapple check just
> looks to me like it can't. Taking it over 2 rounds doesn't seem right
> either.
>
> A couple of people have also mentioned this rule about straight lines
> and charging. I think this rule needs adjusting for 3d. I would like to
> suggest that a flying creature should be able to charge using a
> suitably shallow dive.
>
> What do you think?

The feats Spring Attack and Fly-By Attack are relevant (in as much as
when this happened to us last week, that is what the DM told us the
Will O' The Wisps were using to achieve a similar effect. She may have
been lying.).

Mark
>
> Richard
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions 

I have another combat question:

Does a ranged touch attack suffer -4 when "firing" (the ray, I
suppose), into melee, and can this be removed with Precision Shot?

Incidentally, is there a FAQ or something where questions of this sort
have already been asked and answered?

Many thanks

Richard
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions 

richard d wrote:

> I'd just like to pursue this wyvern attack a bit.
>
> I believe, in my heart of hearts, that a wyvern should be able to fly
> along, grab someone and fly off again. We all saw it in Return of the
> King I seem to remember seeing harpies doing this in Jason and The
> Argonauts too, with a sort of hover down attack.
>
> So how does a wyvern do it? Having to take -20 on a grapple check just
> looks to me like it can't. Taking it over 2 rounds doesn't seem right
> either.

He can do -20 against typical small targets, while an advanced Huge
wyvern can against mediums. Anything else and they're better off with
hit and run poison attacks: that stuff's lethal.
I favour just hitting horses and retreating to wait it out, two
poisoning passes will finish most anything. Come in for a feed when the
PCs leave. If it works, come back with a friend. Great fun, and works
just as well against humanoids.


If you must full grapple it /can/ still work if you've got some
altitude to work with after the grab. Only really viable against scouts
or stragglers that happen to be elevated; flying Wizards are juicy, but
a scout up a tree or peering over a ridgeline or cliff will work too.
Grab + sting, move out over cliff, and drop.

> A couple of people have also mentioned this rule about straight lines
> and charging. I think this rule needs adjusting for 3d. I would like to
> suggest that a flying creature should be able to charge using a
> suitably shallow dive.

Meh. Most aerial charges end with the impact, one way or another.
What you're after is flyby attack, and that's a move and a standard
action only, which allows you to rise just fine afterward.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions 

richard d wrote:
> I have another combat question:
>
> Does a ranged touch attack suffer -4 when "firing" (the ray, I
> suppose), into melee, and can this be removed with Precision Shot?

Yes, and yes.

> Incidentally, is there a FAQ or something where questions of this sort
> have already been asked and answered?

I can't say for specific questions, but the official game rule FAQ is here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

--
Mark.
 >> Stay informed about: Some combat questions