colorclash refund

"Nubian" <dfoot RemoveThis @tassie.net.au> wrote in message
news:1150257475.139425.150020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I know for a fact Martijn made no money on Debris and he goes out of his
> way,
> with Color Calsh, to give the community a great looking item and he just
> gets
> repayed with scorn.

No, repaid with $7000. Yes I know there will be all sorts of costs out of
that. But that is still a large chunck of money to take from the community
on not delivering what was promised.

> I just don't get some of you, you just seem to want to complain for the
> love of it.

That is just a silly statement. How many homebrew releases have there been
on here, how long of some of us been around here? How many complaints have
there been?
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

<rob.ocelot.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150271298.040189.143130@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> How in the heck are collectors killing the homebrew scene WHEN WE ARE
> THE CONSUMERS? (you know, the ones who fork over the money?) If we
> didn't exist, homebrewers would have a lot of unsold product sitting
> around. An IRC colleague of mine was a pioneering homebrew developer
> and it took more than TWO YEARS to sell through 100 copies of his game.

Rob, I think you have hit the nail on the head, and it is something that has
been bothering me for a while.

The 'Limited Edition' thing is what is going to kill homebrew here as it is
being over used. If you like to be complete it is forcing the consumer to
buy into an unknown, which we all (so far) stupidly do, but if it is the
only way we may ever get something without the crazy eBay pricing then we
have to roll the dice and take the chance in case we miss out on a gem.

The seller gets a lot of sales easily regardless of the standard of the
product and thus uses the model again.

Colorclash did have the care and attention to it that makes it deserving of
that status if you consider the whole package, it just failed to deliver in
the end because of a poor distribution model.

So I'm beginning to hate limited editions. I can understand why a homebrew
developer may only want to release a limited quantity in the special
packaging as it must be a pain (and too large a commitment) to produce
further packaging, but once that run is sold out then there should be other
methods of buying/downloading the game though places like vectrex carts. A
few times I've seen statements that a game will never be released by other
means, which in my opinion is the real scene killer...

Cheers
Marc
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

"Richard Hutchinson" <richard.hutchinson.RemoveThis@dsl.pipex.com> schreef in bericht
news:te2dnTK9p7EQKhLZRVny2Q@pipex.net...
> Lodewijk, are you the guy who shipped the boxes by any chance ?
>
> Richard H.
>

Richard, no I'am only a Vectrex collector who is reading this group since
1999 and contributing to it now and then. I also love the Vectrex, I got
one as a present in the eighties and always loved it....I thought it was
necessary to react to this treat because I think a

more relaxed communication about this "not the most important thing on this
planet problem" would be fair. I like it very much when someone keeps this
system/community alive with new homebrew games and think when we are
approaching this to serious and professional this private initiatives will
fade away...that is all.... separate from my vectrex hobby my company ships
items worldwide every day. I had a lot of problems with all mayor shipping
partners, we are depending on them...from a professional point of view I
always solve this problems but I'am glad that I have flexible customers,
they understand that we are depending on logistic systems of the shipping
companies...but keep in mind the homebrew scene is not professional, they do
not have the skills and money to solve this kind of problems, they are doing
great work and I think we have to give them some space do...
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

<rob.ocelot.DeleteThis@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1150271298.040189.143130@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Lodewijk van Haringhal wrote:
> > "cNp" <cparsonsukspam.DeleteThis@aol.com> schreef in bericht
>
> > > Note I haven't asked for a refund, I haven't taken Martijn up on his
> > offer,
> > > I haven't returned the game for my money back, and I don't plan to;
But we
> > > are all allowed to give constructive praise AND criticism.
> > >
> >
> > you are right, but you are killing homebrew development with your
collecting
> > fetish, I always like to compromise and even as a collector you have to
see
> > the relativity of this trashed box...
>
> How in the heck are collectors killing the homebrew scene WHEN WE ARE
> THE CONSUMERS? (you know, the ones who fork over the money?) If we
> didn't exist, homebrewers would have a lot of unsold product sitting
> around. An IRC colleague of mine was a pioneering homebrew developer
> and it took more than TWO YEARS to sell through 100 copies of his game.

You are giving the answer to the question; The homebrew developer loves to
program and loves to contribute to the scene, but the motivation to do this
is not to make a professional money making product out of it...that is also
not possible when you keep in mind that it takes a lot of spare time to make
homebrews..

> However, it takes two to Tango. Developers need to promote their
> product and limited editions certainly attract attention. A limited
> game sells out and gives positive reinforcement to develoeprs that this
> is what will sell and gives an indication of what collectors/consumers
> want. Collectors in turn buy more limited editions, and devlopers keep
> pumping out what they percieve is desired. It starts to border on a
> pusher-junkie type of relationship.
>
> The problem is that this cycle can go awry when the gimmicks ** begin
> to take precedence over the actual content. I've seen this sort of
> thing escalate in other collecting genres and the end results are not
> pretty. You end up attracting a speculator element who only want to
> make money and cares nothing for the games or even the hard work or
> love that went into making them.

no, I only said that this problem is not the end of the world... give him a
chance, a 5 dollar refund is a start, maybe he learns something from this
and the next shipment will be better packed... My opinion: relax and give
the guy some space...

> So who is ultimately to blame for hurting the homebrew scene? Both
> collectors and develoeprs if they aren't careful. In such a small and
> relatively tight-knit community where Vectrex developers and
> enthusiasts can both mingle and mash out their differences it doesn't
> take much to upset this balance. Take a look at the Atari 2600
> homebrew scene where the developers have their own separate community
> and tell me which you prefer.

you are right

> I'm sure more than a few potential developers were encouraged to take
> the plunge and try their hand when Protector and Cube Quest sold out a
> few years ago. We also may end up losing a few developers and
> discouraging potential ones with this latest clash (no pun intended).
>
>
> In the end I hope the developers learn that good PR is golden: You are
> selling to a VERY limited number of people.in a very narrow
> demographic. Burn your customers once and you probably won't get a
> second chance. Sometimes you have to eat those costs to keep people
> happy. It's an unfortunate downside of small hobby-businesses.

I do not think so, it is a hobby business...that means that you like to make
the homebrews, in first place for yourself and your friends, it is very nice
when you get credits from the community but not the most important issue.

> Collectors on the other hand need to realise just how much of a
> developers soul and free time goes into making a homebrew. I don't
> know if there's adequite monetary compensation for that. In such cases
> It's hard not to take any criticism (even constructive) personally.
> While you might be 'right' in getting compensation it doesn't give you
> a liscence to be rude or disrespectful.

I totaly agree with this.
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

"cNp" <cparsonsukspam.RemoveThis@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:4f9s6mF1gc9piU1@individual.net...
>
> "Lodewijk van Haringhal" <niemand.RemoveThis@nergens.oo> wrote in message
> news:448ef7d6$0$31651
> > you are right, but you are killing homebrew development with your
> collecting
> > fetish, I always like to compromise and even as a collector you have to
> see
> > the relativity of this trashed box...Look there is another post on this
> > subject, the game is no called color mash.... again you and the other
> > negative persons are killing homebrew development[my opinion]...
>
> I do hope not, I hope some healthy discussion can help people in future
> decisions; Be that to say "sod it, I'll use plastic cases like John D",
> offer differing distribution models, or just to stay the same and package
up
> more carefully.
>
> Vectorzoa has said it's pain in the 4rse making the boxes up which I bet
it
> is... I'd be happy to receive a flat pack box and do all the cutting and
> glueing myself... that's an extra distribution model again... I'd much
> rather do that than the games stop being available with a box.
>
> Then we can have riveting discussions on the best glue to use to avoid
Cube
> Quest box style falling apart ;¬D
>
> Actually!! Has anyone glued theirs back together? I've never got round
to
> it for fear of using some glue that unexpectedly melts through the card.
>
> cNp
>
I agree with you, this is a constructive problem solving reaction. I hope
Martijn is reading this and can give a reaction...
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

"Chad Tower" <tower DeleteThis @gis.net> wrote in message

My copy of Cube Quest has a fully intact box... so maybe it had to do
with where yours was stored?


Could be but it happened almost immediately... I guess there's very varying
quantities of glue on the boxes as it's all done by hand. From memory it's
not all unstuck... not one that comes out to play really as ther's no game
in there!

cNp
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

"Chad Tower" <tower.TakeThisOut@gis.net> wrote in message
news:1150290872.075987.223580@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

cNp wrote:

> Then we can have riveting discussions on the best glue to use to avoid
> Cube
> Quest box style falling apart ;¬D
>
> Actually!! Has anyone glued theirs back together? I've never got round
> to
> it for fear of using some glue that unexpectedly melts through the card.


>My copy of Cube Quest has a fully intact box... so maybe it had to do
>with where yours was stored?


I bought my two copies of Cube Quest new at CGExpo. One is completely
unglued. The other is hanging on by a thread. The box itself is in great
shape. Since they weren't stored in a hot environment, or in a temperature
varying environment. I have to assume the glue is the problem. But then
other boxes could have been the lucky recipient of a better glue
application. I will eventually re-glue both with contact cement or hot
melt.

I like the effort Sean Kelly expended in producing the boxes. That took
time and money. Since Sean has a family to deal with as well I appreciate
the effort doubly so.

--

Sincerely,

Chris
cromero at romero dot org
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

"Marc Goldman" <marc DeleteThis @countinghouse.co.uk> wrote in message
news:n2Rjg.14254$n13.6396@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
>
> <rob.ocelot DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1150271298.040189.143130@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>> How in the heck are collectors killing the homebrew scene WHEN WE ARE
>> THE CONSUMERS? (you know, the ones who fork over the money?) If we
>> didn't exist, homebrewers would have a lot of unsold product sitting
>> around. An IRC colleague of mine was a pioneering homebrew developer
>> and it took more than TWO YEARS to sell through 100 copies of his game.
>
> Rob, I think you have hit the nail on the head, and it is something that
> has been bothering me for a while.
>
> The 'Limited Edition' thing is what is going to kill homebrew here as it
> is being over used. If you like to be complete it is forcing the consumer
> to buy into an unknown, which we all (so far) stupidly do, but if it is
> the only way we may ever get something without the crazy eBay pricing then
> we have to roll the dice and take the chance in case we miss out on a gem.
>
> The seller gets a lot of sales easily regardless of the standard of the
> product and thus uses the model again.
>
> Colorclash did have the care and attention to it that makes it deserving
> of that status if you consider the whole package, it just failed to
> deliver in the end because of a poor distribution model.
>
> So I'm beginning to hate limited editions. I can understand why a homebrew
> developer may only want to release a limited quantity in the special
> packaging as it must be a pain (and too large a commitment) to produce
> further packaging, but once that run is sold out then there should be
> other methods of buying/downloading the game though places like vectrex
> carts. A few times I've seen statements that a game will never be released
> by other means, which in my opinion is the real scene killer...
>
> Cheers
> Marc
>
>


Personally, I think the limited editions are still a good thing to have.
Especially when the author grants the request to sign the cart. I will be
the first to say the game does not play any differently that a "standard
edition" and my enjoyment of the gameplay itself will not change. But to
get the title out the door faster and recoup some the investment made I do
think that LE's whet the appetite of some buyers.

The Vectrex community is also fortunate to have authors who have soon
released standard edition as non-LE carts / boards / downloads / multi-cart
additions provided by either the author or another Vectrex software
packager. These releases serve to satisfy the pure game player. Thanks to
all the authors who release these standard editions. (John George, Alex,
Ville, Chris, and a whole host of other great people)

But even without and special version or any personalization I would still
kick in cash to purchase the final version. I have in fact done so in the
past even after receiving the final beta copy for play testing. The game
designer, coder, sound artist, graphics artist, manual designer/editor,
hardware designer, and box designer all deserve my support before and after
the release. In the Vectrex community these task usually fall all on one or
two people. They are all a great lot of people and keep our platform perky.

Of course there are those buyers who purchase only to flip the item for a
quick profit. (e.g. SK multi-cart). But at least the author has some for of
immediate confirmation their work was not completed in vain. If the title
gets flipped for double the price then this just proves the next title may
be able to sell for more justifying a larger time and money investment to
make an all around quality product. For the longer term the author/team
will still get to enjoy the reviews by the Vectrex community in general.

I would love to hear more of what the authors/teams think about this subject
as relates to the Vectrex homebrew scene. For those like John, Sean, Alex,
Richard, Martijn, etc who have produced products for multiple platforms I
would love to here your homebrew experiences in the other scenes and how
they compare with the Vectrex.

Sincerely,

Chris
cromero at romero dot org
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

I think the LE's are ok as long as they provide the "value" of what they
cost. Now the "value" certainly varies from person to person. I think
the addition of a overlay and box are well worth $20-$25 dollars.
Unfortunately, I cannot justify $80+ for a new game though.

I also think the roms should be released to the public at some point,
particularly if the LE sells out quickly. I know I have missed a few
LE's due to being offline or not having the $$ at the time.

John
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

Probably by virtue of the fact you haven't bought Color Clash, haven't
paid any money for it, haven't had the box destroyed and felt
disappointed. Means you have trouble seeing our point of view on this
matter.
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

"Mayhem" <mayhemers RemoveThis @hotmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:jK%jg.38140$jP6.32250@fe35.usenetserver.com...
> Probably by virtue of the fact you haven't bought Color Clash, haven't
> paid any money for it, haven't had the box destroyed and felt
> disappointed. Means you have trouble seeing our point of view on this
> matter.

And also suggests Lodewijk isn't the staunch supporter of homebrew he
sounded like with his original comments.

Taking a wait and see approach to buying a product is perfectly acceptable
and I have no problem with that. But if the more committed homebrew
supporters didn't buy blind, like a lot of us did, then this project just
wouldn't have happened. So it rather weakens any arguments coming from
Lodewijk.
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

"Chad Tower" <tower.TakeThisOut@gis.net> schreef in bericht
news:1150296621.691887.47860@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Richard Hutchinson wrote:
> > Lodewijk, are you the guy who shipped the boxes by any chance ?
>
>
> Heh, he *is* the guy who just posted in another thread that he hasn't
> actually bought Color Clash. That undermines his point of view pretty
> hard.

why?
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund 

"John" <john.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:FDZjg.18969$Qg.18900@tornado.southeast.rr.com...
>I think the LE's are ok as long as they provide the "value" of what they
>cost. Now the "value" certainly varies from person to person. I think the
>addition of a overlay and box are well worth $20-$25 dollars.
>Unfortunately, I cannot justify $80+ for a new game though.
>
> I also think the roms should be released to the public at some point,
> particularly if the LE sells out quickly. I know I have missed a few LE's
> due to being offline or not having the $$ at the time.

I should clarify my comments on limited editions a little.

Positives:

1. They help the creator to recoup some costs and make something for their
time.

2. It's really nice to own an LE.

Negatives:

1. In some cases the game is never available in another format, so if you
miss the LE you may never get to play the game (which lots of us do!
without having to wait for one to turn up on eBay and then have to pay too
much for it.

2. The distribution of LEs is usually unfair, in a lot of cases you have to
be in a close circle with the developer (fair enough) or blind lucky to be
on the forums or a web page at the right moment.

3. In cases where the LE is going to be the only release, you can't take a
wait and see approach to see if the game is something you will like or if it
is worth the extra cash the LE label often means. You have to buy blind.

4. Because LEs usually mean overlays and posh boxes you often pay months
before you get the item as the authors need to fund production.

So yes keep LEs, I do love them and rarely moan!

But make a non LE edition available afterwards and maybe consider other ways
of selling LEs. I'd suggest taking a list of all who want it over the space
of a few days (give a closing date) and then if it is over subscribed choose
randomly who gets one. Don't just reward the person who happened to log on
at the right moment!

Cheers
Marc
 >> Stay informed about: colorclash refund