bliz was saying not enough warriors

On Jan 25, 9:48 am, pv+use...@pobox.com (PV) wrote:
>
> Me either. I can go after gigantic groups, but I'm usually out of mana by
> the time I'm done with them. That may be because I'm impatient and am not
> simply refreshing light when it runs out - I use holy shield whenever it's
> up, the occasional consecrate, and I don't normally use judgement of wisdom,
> preferring double light. I need to experiment with it a bit more, but it
> doesn't bother me all that much to have to drink after killing 5 mobs. *
> --
> * PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
> like corkscrews.

Unless there's competition for the mobs, or a long pull to round them
up, consecration really isn't needed. If it is, a single Rank 1
consecrate is sufficient to tag and leash all mobs. I prefer to judge
wisdom and seal light to open, then seal/judge according to my needs.

Jason
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

On Jan 26, 4:05 am, lcpltom <lcpl... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 25, 10:49 am, gerryq <ger... DeleteThis @indigo.ie> wrote:

>
> > I don;t agree with the point about requiring a paladin tank - of
> > course that's nice for AOE, but mages like all DPS classes can do good
> > single-target damage; gear counts for more than class when doing
> > comparisons, and you can't predict who will top the DPS meter.  (If I
> > had to bet on what DPS-er will, knowing only class and talent, I think
> > I'd pick the enhancement shaman.)
>
> > - Gerry Quinn
>
> I was pointing at his statement of the best AoE's in the game.  If you
> want to AoE as a mage in an instance, you need a paladin tank.
> Without a paladin tank, claiming a mage's AoE ability is a benefit to
> 5-mans is a pointless statement.  A mage AoEing with a warrior or
> druid tank becomes a burden on the group, not a benefit.

Well, you don't *need* need a paladin tank. I recall a year or two
ago with my mage in Mara with a warrior tank, I'd frost bolt the first
mob down with everyone else then blizzard the last two. Dunno if it
was really all that much quicker than it would have been just frost
bolting the mobs one by one though.

Just around this christmas time though I did an AoE Shadow Labs run
with my mage, two warlocks, warrior tank and a priest healing. Imp
Blizzard so them mobs couldn't move very fast and two warlocks DoT'ing
and Seeding everything up and the warrior doing a great job of keeping
them on him long enough so that when they started moving for us and
his taunt was on cooldown, they didn't really have a chance of
surviving long enough to do anything. We were on average probably
over geared for the place though. Still, it was a fun, very un-
serious run. In the room with the first boss it was like "3 mobs are
boring, pull two groups!". Going up against the 3rd boss we pulled
with two mobs still alive. That one ended in a wipe. The damn mobs
appeared to have regenerated a third of their life after the first
time we got teleported. I don't doubt we could have done the run
without any wipes if we had have taken it seriously and weren't
*trying* to pull more than we could handle. Have done a couple of
Botanica runs like that just fine.
But yeah, a Pally tank makes it a lot easier, though they do still
need to have a bit of a clue/be geared up appropriately.

--
Ashen Shugar
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:42:33 +0000, Barry Freeman <bazz DeleteThis @nospam.co.uk>
wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:30:44 +0100, "Shammy" <none DeleteThis @nothing.com> wrote:
>
>>now tell me what other class can go on without rest at all?
>
>prot paladin.
>Hitting stuff heals you and gives you mana.
>I could grind melee mobs, 5 at a time all day and never have to drink
>or heal.

I still haven't worked out how to do that mana efficiently, got it so I can
now do 2-3 at a time without having to stop and drink but I have to drink
all the time with bigger groups. It's still fun though
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70)
Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 60)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 53)
Cathach - Gnome Warrior (lvl 30)
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM.DeleteThis@totalise.co.uk> writes:
>I still haven't worked out how to do that mana efficiently, got it so I can
>now do 2-3 at a time without having to stop and drink but I have to drink
>all the time with bigger groups. It's still fun though

Me either. I can go after gigantic groups, but I'm usually out of mana by
the time I'm done with them. That may be because I'm impatient and am not
simply refreshing light when it runs out - I use holy shield whenever it's
up, the occasional consecrate, and I don't normally use judgement of wisdom,
preferring double light. I need to experiment with it a bit more, but it
doesn't bother me all that much to have to drink after killing 5 mobs. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:48:59 -0000, pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) wrote:

>Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM.TakeThisOut@totalise.co.uk> writes:
>>I still haven't worked out how to do that mana efficiently, got it so I can
>>now do 2-3 at a time without having to stop and drink but I have to drink
>>all the time with bigger groups. It's still fun though
>
>Me either. I can go after gigantic groups, but I'm usually out of mana by
>the time I'm done with them. That may be because I'm impatient and am not
>simply refreshing light when it runs out - I use holy shield whenever it's
>up, the occasional consecrate, and I don't normally use judgement of wisdom,
>preferring double light. I need to experiment with it a bit more, but it
>doesn't bother me all that much to have to drink after killing 5 mobs. *

Sounds like you play the same way as me - that I'll generally do after a
big pull though is take one mob and double wisdom it, dies a bit slower
than normal but I regen most my mana while still doing something, rather
than sitting drinking Have to beware of adds when i do that though
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70)
Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 60)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 53)
Cathach - Gnome Warrior (lvl 30)
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:49:50 -0800 (PST), gerryq <gerryq RemoveThis @indigo.ie>
wrote:
>
>> I'd say they're useful but definitely not required, nor does joining a
>> pug with no mage a bad decision.  Instances where CC isn't an issue,
>> such as Black Morass, negates one of your arguments, and while the
>> packs of 3 whelpings might be mage aoe heaven, other classes can
>> handle those just as well.
>
>But here of course the mage is in fact the traditional adds-handler in
>BM, and most groups bring a mage for exactly that purpose! (Some say
>a DPS warrior is even better, but I rarely see one in the role.)
>
I've run BM numerous times (exalted on tank and rogue) and loads of
those times we didn't even have a mage.
Even if we had a mage we preferred to have a hunter on the adds and we
also had quite some good runs with a shaman on the adds.

>You wouldn't really fancy Durnholde Keep without a mage or two
>either...
>
Been there, done that.
And ofcourse a mage makes it easier but Durnholde can be done
perfectly without one as well.
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

Marcel <marcel DeleteThis @marcel.invalid> wrote:
> I've run BM numerous times (exalted on tank and rogue) and loads of
> those times we didn't even have a mage.
> Even if we had a mage we preferred to have a hunter on the adds and we
> also had quite some good runs with a shaman on the adds.

I've been quite often on the adds too with an affliction warlock. Just
dot, dot, dot, fear and forget. Or in the case of the smaller ones,
a seed or two. Heroic version is a bit more challenging but
pretty doable with a 'lock too.

--
"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on
society." -Mark Twain
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

On Jan 25, 5:05 pm, lcpltom <lcpl....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 25, 10:49 am, gerryq <ger....RemoveThis@indigo.ie> wrote:

> > I don;t agree with the point about requiring a paladin tank - of
> > course that's nice for AOE, but mages like all DPS classes can do good
> > single-target damage; gear counts for more than class when doing
> > comparisons, and you can't predict who will top the DPS meter.  (If I
> > had to bet on what DPS-er will, knowing only class and talent, I think
> > I'd pick the enhancement shaman.)
>
> I was pointing at his statement of the best AoE's in the game.  If you
> want to AoE as a mage in an instance, you need a paladin tank.
> Without a paladin tank, claiming a mage's AoE ability is a benefit to
> 5-mans is a pointless statement.  A mage AoEing with a warrior or
> druid tank becomes a burden on the group, not a benefit

Well, sometimes you need to AOE, regardless of what sort of tank there
is. I don't go out of my way to do it, and will prefer to focus-fire
single mobs when I have a choice.

On the other hand, suppose you find yourself in heroic Botanica with a
warrior or druid tank and no other AOE specialist in the group? In
certain encounters the mage is just going to have to bite the bullet
and kill all those little plants while hopefully staying alive...
(Same applies to skeletons in certain other places, but they go down
easier as a rule.)

Worst case is actually when there's a hunter in the group and he pulls
half the plants with a volley, splitting them. Or you have to frost
nova first in order to allow the hunter to volley, when it would be
easier to just nuke them yourself before they turn resistant to your
favourite school of magic...

- Gerry Quinn
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

On Jan 25, 6:57 pm, Marcel <mar....TakeThisOut@marcel.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:49:50 -0800 (PST), gerryq <ger....TakeThisOut@indigo.ie>
> wrote:

> >But here of course the mage is in fact the traditional adds-handler in
> >BM, and most groups bring a mage for exactly that purpose!  (Some say
> >a DPS warrior is even better, but I rarely see one in the role.)
>
> I've run BM numerous times (exalted on tank and rogue) and loads of
> those times we didn't even have a mage.
> Even if we had a mage we preferred to have a hunter on the adds and we
> also had quite some good runs with a shaman on the adds.

Not saying you can't. And of course my perspective may be slightly
biased because obviously a mage can never experience being in a party
without at least one mage! Not without levelling alts, anyway, and
the mage is my only L70.

However, for a fact my mage is usually asked to handle adds in BM,
irrespective of group composition. That was even more true in
earlier, less-geared days, when BM had not become a walk in the park.

Then again, it may be partly down to the fact that the add-handling
can seem a little intimidating if you haven't ever done it - so
somebody who has done it before, be it mage, hunter, shaman, or
something else, may well be asked to do it again.

- Gerry Quinn
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:28:54 +0000, Catriona R
<catrionarNOSPAM DeleteThis @totalise.co.uk> wrote:

>I still haven't worked out how to do that mana efficiently, got it so I can
>now do 2-3 at a time without having to stop and drink but I have to drink
>all the time with bigger groups. It's still fun though

You need to learn to juggle Seal of Light and Seal of Wisdom, is all.

Hard hitting mobs? Judge Seal of Wisdom, use Seal of Light.
Squishy melee mobs that hit like my sisters cat? Seal of the Crusader
and Seal of Righteosness and a big two Hander.

Soft hitting, or dual-wielding mobs? Seal of Light, Judged, then seal
of Wisdom.

Often, if it s a long fight, I'll alternate.. say Judge Seal of Light,
use Seal of Wisdom... Just before SoW runs out, judge it, and use Seal
of Light.

That way you alternate big heals with big mana returns.
Typically, I use this when I'm sequencing mobs, rather than lots at
once.. the Buzzards in Nagrand spring to mind...the last set where
they do aggro (yay!).
You can aggro about three at once here and when I got down to the last
one, I'd drag them over to the next group.

When I did that there was an orc warrior doing the same quest.. he was
very polite and asked me "Please leave some for me" hehe.
I love being a female paladin.. very Buffy.
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:48:59 -0000, pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) wrote:

>Me either. I can go after gigantic groups, but I'm usually out of mana by
>the time I'm done with them. That may be because I'm impatient and am not
>simply refreshing light when it runs out - I use holy shield whenever it's
>up, the occasional consecrate, and I don't normally use judgement of wisdom,
>preferring double light. I need to experiment with it a bit more, but it
>doesn't bother me all that much to have to drink after killing 5 mobs.

After you've killed one on it's own, you'll have a good idea of how
hard it hits, whether it uses any special abilities and so on.

The Buzzards in Nagrad do a disease thing I think, maybe a poison..
anyway, is a dispellable thing, but it stacks so you don't want it to
get too high.

I used Judgement of Light and Seal of Wisdom on those and had Blessing
of Wisdom up rather than Sanctuary. Cleared the Birds three times to
do the 30 for the quest and never stopped for drinkies.

So you need to factor in both the damage (medium) but also the mana
you'll need for dispelling, holy shield and conc.

I don't use consecrate much at all, outside instances. Holy Shield is
great though. I do tend to wait for redoubt to proc before using Holy
Shield - 70% block chance. Consecrate benefits mostly from Seal of the
Crusader (Increased Holy Damage) and is really useful for keeping
aggro on a mob of mobs.

I just wish at least ONE of my characters had the Thorium Shield Spike
plans drop. I can't see me getting Exalted with Thrallmar any time
soon for the Felsteel one and no one on my server sems to be able to
make either.
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:45:40 +0000, Catriona R
<catrionarNOSPAM RemoveThis @totalise.co.uk> wrote:

>Sounds like you play the same way as me - that I'll generally do after a
>big pull though is take one mob and double wisdom it, dies a bit slower
>than normal but I regen most my mana while still doing something, rather
>than sitting drinking Have to beware of adds when i do that though

Nahh... remember you can change your mind!

Got a Judged SoW and a Sow and get adds? Just use a Seal of Light and
wait it out if you're low on mana.

I probably waste too much mana changing seals mid fight, but thats the
versatility for you.
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors 

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:55:01 +0000, Barry Freeman <bazz DeleteThis @nospam.co.uk>
wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:45:40 +0000, Catriona R
><catrionarNOSPAM DeleteThis @totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Sounds like you play the same way as me - that I'll generally do after a
>>big pull though is take one mob and double wisdom it, dies a bit slower
>>than normal but I regen most my mana while still doing something, rather
>>than sitting drinking Have to beware of adds when i do that though
>
>Nahh... remember you can change your mind!
>
>Got a Judged SoW and a Sow and get adds? Just use a Seal of Light and
>wait it out if you're low on mana.

True, and I do that, just if I'm really really low on mana I might not be
able to However I carry a ton of mana pots for times like that, plus
being an alchemist and having just dinged 60 I now have many Mad
Alchemist's Potions... quite looking forward to trying them and seeing what
side effects I get

>I probably waste too much mana changing seals mid fight, but thats the
>versatility for you.

Hehe that is exactly why I run oom a lot, changing seals, judging, etc etc.
It's fun though! Really have to play my pally more but I'm kinda off
alliance at the moment... at this rate I'll give up and level a belf one
lol.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70)
Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 60)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 53)
Cathach - Gnome Warrior (lvl 30)
 >> Stay informed about: bliz was saying not enough warriors