YANI: Level compiler keyword for good (but random) loot

On 2008-01-04, John H. <JohnWH RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> Does it make sense to infallibly provide such a game-altering reward
> for completing a branch that amounts to solving sliding-block puzzles?

I think this is more properly stated as two questions in one:

1. Does it make sense to provide reflection so early in the game?
2. Does it make sense to have a branch only nominally related to Nethack
in the first place -- i.e. a sliding block puzzle?

> I think Sokoban is great, but should be ignorable. People who don't
> want to mess with it should be able to skip it, but as-is, both prizes
> are strong enough that even people who hate it feel compelled to try.

A number of people complete all but the last, and if they recognize the
bag of holding level, they just skip it. The reflection is a far
greater prize in vanilla, giving near-immunity to so many attacks.

It nearly (but not quite) replaces fire, cold, and sleep resistance, and
for all worthwhile purposes it provides disintegration resistance.
Stashing is easy in comparison to surviving the wand-of-sleep and
wand-of-death scenarios effortlessly.

> A few of the things on the light might be considered even better items
> than a bag of holding or amulet of reflection, but by randomizing the
> item, it'd feel less of a duty to complete Sokoban.

I think you will find that people still complete it, but bitch a lot
more. As long as you provide the possibility of such a great reward for
such a little degree of effort (memorizing solutions or reading from
spoilers as they move), people who are trying to win will still feel
compelled to do Soko.

Actually, to be fair, people will do Soko regardless -- the food
rations, wands, and rings are in some cases more of a prize than the end
item. So this really becomes not two questions, but just #2.

> Vlad's Tower has a couple of items that could be usefully replaced with
> random loot,

The amulet of life saving and water walking boots are excellent choices
for Vlad's, IMO -- they aren't something the player critically needs
UNLESS the player critically needs them, in which case they're a huge
sigh of relief.

The amulet of life saving isn't ever a "need", but a new player will
certainly love finding it. And the boots of water walking are a nod to
no game ever being totally non-winnable by pure level-generation fiat;
you can dig past Medusa and plow through the castle, never find
levitation, and still be able to cross back to the stairs on level 1.

Anyway. To answer my own early questions...

1. Not really, but this is the fault of reflection being a perfect
defense against far too many attacks in vanilla.

2. Not really. It could stand to be replaced with something else
entirely, honestly, perhaps that could appeal to more than just a subset
of the population. I like Sokoban as a puzzle on its own merits, and I
like Nethack on its own merits. Combining the two simply makes for
minor tedium, and bolting a "must-try-for" prize at the end is a rotten
way to force players to go for it.

--
Derek

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On Jan 4, 7:01 pm, Derek Ray
> 1. Does it make sense to provide reflection so early in the game?
> 2. Does it make sense to have a branch only nominally related to Nethack
> in the first place -- i.e. a sliding block puzzle?

The sliding block puzzle is there because it varies Nethack's play a
bit. While I have a problem with providing so many wands and
reflection 50% of the time so early, I still think it's a worthy
inclusion. It's certainly got its own flavor compared to the rest of
the dungeon -- it doesn't feel like just more space. I suspect it was
added mostly because it was relatively simple to implement, what with
boulders and pits already providing most of the needed behavior.


> > I think Sokoban is great, but should be ignorable. People who don't
> > want to mess with it should be able to skip it, but as-is, both prizes
> > are strong enough that even people who hate it feel compelled to try.
>
> A number of people complete all but the last, and if they recognize the
> bag of holding level, they just skip it. The reflection is a far
> greater prize in vanilla, giving near-immunity to so many attacks.

Actually, as you mentioned, reflection is needed relatively little
early on, so I usually prefer to find the bag. I hate stashing,
perhaps because I played Rogue for a while before Nethack.


> I think you will find that people still complete it, but bitch a lot
> more. As long as you provide the possibility of such a great reward for
> such a little degree of effort (memorizing solutions or reading from
> spoilers as they move), people who are trying to win will still feel
> compelled to do Soko.

The random item list I provided is, on the average, a bit worse than
the items already there.


> Actually, to be fair, people will do Soko regardless -- the food
> rations, wands, and rings are in some cases more of a prize than the end
> item.

I'm not very happy about those items either, but at least they're
random within their class.


> The amulet of life saving and water walking boots are excellent choices
> for Vlad's, IMO -- they aren't something the player critically needs
> UNLESS the player critically needs them, in which case they're a huge
> sigh of relief.

The boots I was less sure about, for the reason you give. The amulet
is less essential. A new player might appreciate finding it, but they
might also appreciate finding something else.


> Anyway. To answer my own early questions...
>
> 1. Not really, but this is the fault of reflection being a perfect
> defense against far too many attacks in vanilla.

Agreed. Giving monsters non-ray elemental attacks would offset this,
like touch and ball attacks.


> 2. Not really. It could stand to be replaced with something else
> entirely, honestly, perhaps that could appeal to more than just a subset
> of the population. I like Sokoban as a puzzle on its own merits, and I
> like Nethack on its own merits. Combining the two simply makes for
> minor tedium, and bolting a "must-try-for" prize at the end is a rotten
> way to force players to go for it.

I had an idea some time back for a way to randomize Sokoban that
wouldn't require much change to the game. I still like the idea of
making it more proof against memorization. (Yeah, you might balk at
that idea. I still like it though.)

- John H.