YANI: Leprosy

On Jan 29, 3:43 pm, Sergey Zaharchenko <doublef-... DeleteThis @yandex.ru> wrote:
> Tapeworm code should keep track of what the player is polymorphed into
> (the creature should probably have a stomach). For an added twist, a
> tapeworm could also be killed by drinking a !oSickness (as it's in your
> digestive tract).

If you are contemplating adding something that annoying to the game
(although I admit, it's better than the big fun-killer amnesia), it
shouldn't be too hard to get rid of. You could just say polymorph
kills it by "system shock" or something, then you avoid all the tricky
do-liches-have-stomachs problem.

(btw,what is currently the effect of polymorph on disease?)

Rusty weapons being more dangerous than non-rusty ones is a bit silly
IMO. Tetanus does not really come from the rust itself, but more
likely from what caused the rust.
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy 

On 29 Jan., 15:19, Derek Ray <de... DeleteThis @moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
wrote:
>
> Intriguingly, one of the more effective field remedies for some
> intestinal parasites is simply to eat a cigarette or two.

The alkaloid nicotine is a severe toxic substance.
Even babies accidentally eating cigarette stubs can
be in danger, I was told by a doctor, depending on
how much the remaining amount of tobacco is.

> Apparently the tobacco changes the chemical composition of your
> digestive system significantly; this stuns the critters for just
> long enough so your body can dispose of them naturally.

It's not only stunning, as far as I have been told.

Janis
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On 29 Jan., 04:24, "AngleWyrm" <anglew....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Derek Ray" <de....RemoveThis@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnfpsmqe.8hj.derek@still.just.a.spamtrap.org...
> > On 2008-01-28, AngleWyrm <anglew....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > It will also take effect much slower than "every dozen turns".  By the
> > time you get down to XX:3 on all stats, you'll effectively be dead
> > anyway simply from the sheer inability to do _anything_ effectively.

There's already a ring in Nethack to prevent stat drain;
which would then be of some use.

> Death as a secondary result; an excellent idea.
>
> > It's still up in the air as to exactly what should cause this; currently
> > I'm leaning towards being hit with rusted weaponry, grey fungi, and a
>
> Some interesting disease variants:

I like your ideas.

> Leprosy is borne of filth and malnutrition, and is contageous.
>
> Tetanus can be had from rusty cuts (blood contact),

...and spiked pits (where their starting level might have
to be somewhat adjusted, since they appear too early;
but that wouldn't hurt anyway since instant poison death
would then be more reasonable)...

> and is generally
> paralyzing, although not contageous. Might affect Dexterity, Strength and
> the ability to speak clearly -- maybe hampering spell casting.

Hehe, funny. Imagine asking shopkeepers for prices, and
talking to a priest to offer donations (not that they would
need to speak to accept donations, i.e. in Real Life), etc.

> Black Plague is transferred by the fleas of infested rats, and causes
> bleeding and starvation.
>
> Malaria: The parasite is transferred by mosquitos, and causes vomiting,
> anemia, coma.

Janis
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy 

On 2008-01-30, vintermann <vintermann.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> (btw,what is currently the effect of polymorph on disease?)

Depends on whether you poly into something that's disease resistant or
not, I'd say. Which critters are disease resistant are
YetToBeDetermined, though magical constructs (such as golems) are an
obvious one.

> Rusty weapons being more dangerous than non-rusty ones is a bit silly
> IMO. Tetanus does not really come from the rust itself, but more
> likely from what caused the rust.

Nethack isn't about reality. This is why I'm not going to implement
multiple types of disease ("reality for its own sake"), and why things
like rusty weapons _will_ cause disease -- because the "step on a rusty
nail, get tetanus" thing is firmly embedded in the collective
consciousness, and putting a little hook in there will serve nicely.

So many people in this world don't know the true facts about anything
that attempting to make a game based on those true facts would certainly
be 'realistic', but probably wouldn't be much fun because nobody could
relate to it.

--
Derek

Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy 

On 2008-01-30, Derek Ray wrote:
> On 2008-01-30, vintermann <vintermann.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Rusty weapons being more dangerous than non-rusty ones is a bit silly
>> IMO. Tetanus does not really come from the rust itself, but more
>> likely from what caused the rust.
>
> Nethack isn't about reality. This is why I'm not going to implement
> multiple types of disease ("reality for its own sake"), and why things
> like rusty weapons _will_ cause disease -- because the "step on a rusty
> nail, get tetanus" thing is firmly embedded in the collective
> consciousness, and putting a little hook in there will serve nicely.
>
> So many people in this world don't know the true facts about anything
> that attempting to make a game based on those true facts would certainly
> be 'realistic', but probably wouldn't be much fun because nobody could
> relate to it.

I fail to see how the fact that rust is not the direct cause of tetanus, but
merely an indicator of it, should imply that rusty weapons in NetHack
shouldn't be causing disease. Rust in NH is caused by similar things as rust
in real life, so these things might as well cause disease, too. Also, I
believe one factor of rusty metal being prone to cause tetanus is that its
porous surface is a better breeding ground for the bacteria than the easily
cleaned smooth metal surface, which also transfers to NetHack perfectly.

--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
BOFH Excuse #170:
popper unable to process jumbo kernel
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy 

Hello vintermann!

Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 04:20:32AM -0800 you wrote:

> On Jan 29, 3:43 pm, Sergey Zaharchenko <doublef-... RemoveThis @yandex.ru> wrote:
> > Tapeworm code should keep track of what the player is polymorphed into
> > (the creature should probably have a stomach). For an added twist, a
> > tapeworm could also be killed by drinking a !oSickness (as it's in your
> > digestive tract).
>
> If you are contemplating adding something that annoying to the game
> (although I admit, it's better than the big fun-killer amnesia), it
> shouldn't be too hard to get rid of. You could just say polymorph
> kills it by "system shock" or something, then you avoid all the tricky
> do-liches-have-stomachs problem.

I mean that some creatures can't *get* the worm in the first place,
though the player still has to eat in his polymorphed form, and that
should be checked for.

As for drinking a !oPoly when already infected,

You drink the yellow potion.
You feel like a new man!
You see a long worm break out of your stomach!
It cries something like `Daddy!'

--
DoubleF
No virus detected in this message. Ehrm, wait a minute...
/kernel: pid 56921 (antivirus), uid 32000: exited on signal 9
Oh yes, no virus:)
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy 

On Jan 30, 2:14 pm, Ohle Claussen <ohle.claus... RemoveThis @ds.mpg.de> wrote:

> I fail to see how the fact that rust is not the direct cause of tetanus, but
> merely an indicator of it, should imply that rusty weapons in NetHack
> shouldn't be causing disease. Rust in NH is caused by similar things as rust
> in real life, so these things might as well cause disease, too. Also, I
> believe one factor of rusty metal being prone to cause tetanus is that its
> porous surface is a better breeding ground for the bacteria than the easily
> cleaned smooth metal surface, which also transfers to NetHack perfectly.

Do orcs ever clean their smooth metal surfaces? If so, why, when dirty
weapons only are deadlier?

Inconsistencies may be acceptable. Annoying inconsistencies, however,
one should think twice about. I don't see what fun disease from rust
adds to the game, and it breaks expectations: rusty weapons should be
less powerful.
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy 

"Ohle Claussen" <ohle.claussen.TakeThisOut@ds.mpg.de> wrote in message
news:fnpt7f$era$1@news.albasani.net...

> I fail to see how the fact that rust is not the direct cause of tetanus,
> but
> merely an indicator of it, should imply that rusty weapons in NetHack
> shouldn't be causing disease. Rust in NH is caused by similar things as
> rust

Not so much the rust, it's the puncture wound that does it. Tetanus doesn't
work it's thing in the air, so open wounds aren't trouble. But a nail that
deposits tetanus inside, away from the air, allows it to grow.
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy 

On Jan 31, 2:22 pm, Derek Ray <de....DeleteThis@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
wrote:

> As far as "fun" -- what exactly is your definition of "fun", and is it
> any resemblance to "lots of things that help the player, but nothing
> that hurts him"?

Instead of making such accusations, maybe you explain to me what
tetanus from rusty weapons add to the game, besides another source of
deaths? It does not add surprising and amusing detail, at least not to
me, because it's based on a quite non-geeky misunderstanding (rust
causing tetanus) and has obvious inconsistencies (why don't all
nethack weapons cause disease? I expect they are rather bloody, dirty
etc.)

Nethack is fun because it's full of interesting surprises and jokes,
it's challenging, it has many problems and many ways to solve them.
There's always something clever you can do (or more likely, could have
done), which usually makes sense in a nethackish sort of way.

However, it also has many annoyances and counterintuitive features
which should be especially apparent to unspoiled players.
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy 

On 2008-01-31, vintermann <vintermann RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 30, 2:14 pm, Ohle Claussen <ohle.claus... RemoveThis @ds.mpg.de> wrote:
>> I fail to see how the fact that rust is not the direct cause of tetanus, but
>> merely an indicator of it, should imply that rusty weapons in NetHack
>> shouldn't be causing disease. Rust in NH is caused by similar things as rust
>
> Inconsistencies may be acceptable. Annoying inconsistencies, however,
> one should think twice about. I don't see what fun disease from rust
> adds to the game, and it breaks expectations: rusty weapons should be
> less powerful.

Rusty weapons are still less powerful; disease isn't direct HP damage.
Ideally, rusty weapons (like tools) would have a chance of breaking when
used, as well.

As far as "fun" -- what exactly is your definition of "fun", and is it
any resemblance to "lots of things that help the player, but nothing
that hurts him"?

That seems to be most people's definition of "fun" in these discussions.
Remember, not everything in the game should be beneficial to the player.

--
Derek

Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy 

On 2008-01-31, vintermann <vintermann.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2:22 pm, Derek Ray <de....TakeThisOut@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
> wrote:
>
>> As far as "fun" -- what exactly is your definition of "fun", and is it
>> any resemblance to "lots of things that help the player, but nothing
>> that hurts him"?
>
> Instead of making such accusations,

[tl;dr]

Answer the question, please.

What exactly is your definition of "fun"?

Is the below-quoted text meant to be it?

> Nethack is fun because it's full of interesting surprises and jokes,

So you contend that disease from a rusty weapon or ghoul attack is
neither interesting nor a surprise? That seems to be an unsupportable
position; good luck with that.

It's even somewhat of a traditional Nethack "inside joke", because
"everyone knows" rusty things cause tetanus; though 'joke' here isn't
quite the right word, since there's no funny-ha-ha about it, really.

> it's challenging,

a) Not once you learn where all the hidden levers are.
b) You like challenge? Disease adds another challenge.

> it has many problems and many ways to solve them.

Disease adds another problem, and there would of course be ways to solve it.

> There's always something clever you can do (or more likely, could have
> done), which usually makes sense in a nethackish sort of way.

There would certainly be things you could do for disease, and indeed
'could have done' -- you can spot the "foo wields a rusty dagger!"
message and switch to your ranged weapon.

I think disease certainly adds an interesting aspect to the game; the
implementation is the only tricky part due to the need to avoid
impacting the early game too harshly.

Yes, I can definitely see this going into Sporkhack in the near future; you've
convinced me that it is, in fact, "fun", even by your own definition of fun.

--
Derek

Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy 

On 2008-01-31, vintermann wrote:
> On Jan 30, 2:14 pm, Ohle Claussen <ohle.claus... RemoveThis @ds.mpg.de> wrote:
>
>> I fail to see how the fact that rust is not the direct cause of tetanus, but
>> merely an indicator of it, should imply that rusty weapons in NetHack
>> shouldn't be causing disease. Rust in NH is caused by similar things as rust
>> in real life, so these things might as well cause disease, too. Also, I
>> believe one factor of rusty metal being prone to cause tetanus is that its
>> porous surface is a better breeding ground for the bacteria than the easily
>> cleaned smooth metal surface, which also transfers to NetHack perfectly.
>
> Do orcs ever clean their smooth metal surfaces? If so, why, when dirty
> weapons only are deadlier?

OK, say that a smooth surface cleans itself easier by normal use. And a rough
surface, having more surface area, is by itself a better breeding ground.
Also, rusting iron needs water contact, and water in the dungon might often be
contaminated

I think it's quite clear to everyone that rust doesn't _cause_ tetanus, but
there might well be correlation (or else the common conception of a connection
between rusty weapons and tetanus wouldn't have formed), and as long as this
correlation is valid in the NetHack world, I see nothing wrong with rusty
weapons "causing" a disease.

> Inconsistencies may be acceptable. Annoying inconsistencies, however,
> one should think twice about. I don't see what fun disease from rust
> adds to the game, and it breaks expectations: rusty weapons should be
> less powerful.

They still are, damage wise. And I certainly would not say it breaks
expectations. A rusty weapon is worse overall, but when it punctures, risk of
nasty infections is higher -- seems perfectly allright to me.

--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
BOFH Excuse #304:
routing problems on the neural net
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy 

On Jan 31, 3:43 pm, Derek Ray <de... RemoveThis @moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
wrote:

[tl;dr;bk;sm;xq]

> Yes, I can definitely see this going into Sporkhack in the near future; you've
> convinced me that it is, in fact, "fun", even by your own definition of fun.
>

Take heed, rgrn: This is how you can manipulate Derek to put something
into Spork. Just get him into obnoxious mode and criticize an idea...
 >> Stay informed about: YANI: Leprosy