Windows 98 and its DOS mode option

On 14 Feb, 14:11, riku <r... RemoveThis @none.invalid.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:20:35 -0800 (PST), rpgs rock dvds
>
> <rpgsrockd... RemoveThis @hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >I'd like to be able to play all my old games again, so I was thinking
> >of setting up a dual boot system with XP and 98.  Say I boot into 98,
> >and then choose the "restart in DOS mode" option that it gives you -
> >will this DOS mode (version 7 I think) run all old DOS games?
>
> >Also, should I format 98 for FAT16 or FAT32?  Basically I just want
> >one machine that will guarantee to run nearly all my PC games ranging
> >from old DOS games to XP ones.
>
> >Thanks, regards, Robert.
>
> Unlike what Magnate said, go with Win98. It'll be great for MS-DOS
> games (yes, also pre 1995 games). Lots of DOS games will run directly
> from Win98 itself incl. sounds, USB joysticks and mice working (yay!),
> and those which don't, you can boot to real MS-DOS included with
> Win98. I have one such retro machine (Pentium 133 with 64MB RAM, 3DFx
> Voodoo 2, real Soundblaster 16 + Roland SCC-1 + Roland CM-32L...),
> running Win98SE.
>
> To boot a game from Win98 into DOS (without Win98 active), you can
> either set it in the game shortcut (when you double-click the game
> icon, it will boot to MS-DOS using config.sys and autoexec.bat you
> have defined in the shortcut properties, and load back to Win98 after
> you exit the game), OR you can set up a generic shortcut to
> COMMAND.COM, in which case it will boot you to MS-DOS command prompt
> and you can run any games freely from there, and get back to Win98 by
> typing EXIT. This is the real MS-DOS mode with 100% compatibility,
> with no Win98 in memory at the same time.
>
> You can also use the "restart in DOS mode" option that you described,
> but then you can't select which config.sys and autoexec.bat to use.
> This is not a problem for many DOS games.
>
> The only problems probably will be:
>
> - Your hardware. DOS games were finicky about hardware, so don't
> expect to get any sounds on DOS games in MS-DOS mode without an
> ancient ISA sound card; Soundblaster 16 with Roland SCC-1 and
> MT-32/CM-32L is the ultimate sound setup for DOS games .
>
> - Tuning config.sys and autoexec.bat for different DOS games (not
> needed for 90% of DOS games). With "real" MS-DOS (later versions) you
> had utilities that did the optimization for you with the CD-ROM
> drivers, mouse drivers etc. loaded in the memory. As far as I can
> tell, you need to do this tweaking manually with this Win98 solution.
>
> On the other hand, the advantage with Win98 is that you can have a
> separate config.sys/autoexec.bat for each DOS game if you wish. With
> "real" MS-DOS using a boot menu, you were restricted to 9 different
> alternatives, unless you started messing up with boot disks.
>
> One good option is also using DOSBox, at least if you don't have DOS
> compatible hardware. I'd just wish that DOSBox emulated Roland MT-32
> better than it currently does. (actually DOSBox doesn't emulate it;
> you had to install an additional MT32 driver for the emulation).

Sound in games is so important to me, because when I had an old ISA
based PC, I loved the midi sound coming from the Creative AWE32 card.
DOSBox is very clever, but I also wish the sound sounded better - the
midi tunes don't sound as good compared with aforementioned older ISA
sound cards.

But I'm reluctant to hunt about for a legacy PC with ancient ISA sound
hardware - I feel as if I ought to stick to just one machine. So I
think I'll prolly go dual-boot 98/XP, and accept that things won't be
entirely perfect.

Thanks, regards, Robert.
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On 14 Feb, 14:17, riku <r....DeleteThis@none.invalid.com> wrote:
> Forgot to add:
>
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:20:35 -0800 (PST), rpgs rock dvds
>
> <rpgsrockd....DeleteThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >Also, should I format 98 for FAT16 or FAT32?
>
> Go with FAT32. I don't recall ever running into DOS games not working
> due to FAT32.
>
> >Basically I just want
> >one machine that will guarantee to run nearly all my PC games ranging
> >from old DOS games to XP ones.
>
> That may be a problem, because new Win98 games require quite different
> hardware from DOS/early Win games. For example, 3Dfx Voodoo 2 card is
> great for 3D accelerated DOS games and early Win98 games, but not
> newer Win98 games.
>
> Similarly, SB16 (with Waveblaster or Roland SCC-1 + MT-32) or Gravis
> Ultrasound may be optimal for DOS games, but not necessarily for Win98
> games.

Drat. I'm not sure what to do now - I don't think I've thought this
through carefully enough. Actually, do you happen to know if there
are many Win98 games (and from that era) which fail on XP? If there
are only a fraction say, then a really simple solution might be to
just go with XP and DOSBox? (Incidentally, I tried a pile of old
games on Vista recently, and ran in to no end of trouble with them.)

Regards, Robert.
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On 14 Feb, 14:17, riku <r....TakeThisOut@none.invalid.com> wrote:
> Forgot to add:
>
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:20:35 -0800 (PST), rpgs rock dvds
>
> <rpgsrockd....TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >Also, should I format 98 for FAT16 or FAT32?
>
> Go with FAT32. I don't recall ever running into DOS games not working
> due to FAT32.
>
> >Basically I just want
> >one machine that will guarantee to run nearly all my PC games ranging
> >from old DOS games to XP ones.
>
> That may be a problem, because new Win98 games require quite different
> hardware from DOS/early Win games. For example, 3Dfx Voodoo 2 card is
> great for 3D accelerated DOS games and early Win98 games, but not
> newer Win98 games.
>
> Similarly, SB16 (with Waveblaster or Roland SCC-1 + MT-32) or Gravis
> Ultrasound may be optimal for DOS games, but not necessarily for Win98
> games.

PS, seen your http://www.ntcompatible.com thread post - thanks.
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On 14 Feb, 15:06, riku <r....DeleteThis@none.invalid.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 06:12:39 -0800 (PST), rpgs rock dvds
>
> <rpgsrockd....DeleteThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >If Win98's "restart in DOS mode" doesn't support all old DOS games,
>
> It does. It will not be a problem; your non-compatible hardware may
> be.
>
> Win98 is actually great for running many/most DOS games, ie. because
> it frees quite a lot of conventional memory with all drivers loaded
> (CD-ROM, mouse, HD cache etc.), and you can use USB controllers with
> DOS games when running them through Win98. I think it even allows you
> to get sounds from many sound cards which would not work in DOS mode.
>
> >then I either need DOS 6.22 itself or DOSBox.  I think there are games
> >which need older versions of Windows (like 9 which fail on XP.  I
> >think FF8 might be one of them, and I think that there are others.
>
> WinXP has compatibility mode that allows you to run many Win9x games
> on it that would fail otherwise, but I do not think it is 100%
> foolproof.
>
> >So, I guess I need DOS (6.22 or DOSBox), Win98 and also XP.  If I go
> >the DOSBox route, I guess that means dual-boot with w98 + XP?
>
> I guess the meaning was that you would have only XP loaded, and run
> both DOS games (with DOSBox) and Win9x games (either directly or using
> the compatibility mode) from it. It will not necessarily work with all
> games you throw at it, but it is the easiest solution to set up.
>
> >Or is
> >it possible to have all 3 of these OS's on one hard drive?
>
> Since in my experience multi-boot systems become a pain in the behind
> in the long run (at the latest when you want to re-install one of your
> operating systems and you are trying to figure out how to do it
> without screwing up the boot system), here's one suggestion:
>
> - Two separate hard drives. Install Win98(SE) on one of them, and XP
> on the other, and use extension cords for IDE and power cables so that
> you can keep the hard drives outside the PC case.
>
> - Whenever you want to switch OS, you will need to power down your PC
> and disconnect/reconnect the hard drives (power cable is enough).
>
> This way you can keep the two OSes completely separated from each
> others and they will not be messing up when you want to reformat
> certain partition and reinstall the OS (this may mess up the boot
> system). On the other hand, if you want to continously switch between
> XP and 98, this may be the worse solution.
>
> It depends what you see as more tiresome: having to swap HD for
> swapping OS, or possibly having to reinstall everything (including
> both OSes) whenever one of them needs reinstallation. I find this
> solution more straighforward.
>
> Anyway, as said, suitable hardware is more critical than what OSes you
> are going to use. A more complete solution is to have two different
> PCs:
>
> - Win98 machine which runs DOS and early Win9x games (includes
> hardware like Soundblaster 16, Roland sound cards and modules, 3Dfx
> Voodoo 2, Pentium 133-200MHz CPU etc.).
>
> - Modern WinXP machine running later Win98 and XP games.

Thanks very much for all the info. Your dual-PC solution is the
optimal solution. Regretably however I just feel a bit uncomfortable
with the idea of getting & maintaining 2 seperate machines, one of
which contains legacy hardware and referring to one of your earlier
posts "won't last forever".

But I think my mind's made up now - dual-boot 98/XP + accept some
sound "limitations".

Thank you, regards, Robert.

PS ~ now to get hold of a copy of Win 98!
PPS ~ have you had any experience with Virtual PC 2007?
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On 14 Feb, 16:41, Mike S. <m....TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 06:37:41 -0800 (PST), rpgs rock dvds
>
> <rpgsrockd....TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >But I'm reluctant to hunt about for a legacy PC with ancient ISA sound
> >hardware - I feel as if I ought to stick to just one machine.  So I
> >think I'll prolly go dual-boot 98/XP, and accept that things won't be
> >entirely perfect.
>
> Get the external versions of the internal ISA cards on Ebay. The
> external version of the Roland LAPC-I is the MT-32. And the external
> version of the SCC-1 is the SC-55 or SC-55mkII. You can connect these
> devices with a midi + gameport cable or a midi + USB cable to any
> computer with a gameport or USB connection. They should then work fine
> in DosBox.

Pardon my ignorance, but do I need both or would one suffice?
I had a look on ebay, and I think I found what you are referring to -
they look a little bit like digital TV set-top boxes - am I right?

Thanks, regards, Robert.

PS: Pity modern mobo's don't have a spare ISA slot (I mean,
unfortunately the external boxes mentioned above weren't cheap.)
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

rpgs rock dvds <rpgsrockdvds.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>Drat. I'm not sure what to do now - I don't think I've thought this
>through carefully enough. Actually, do you happen to know if there
>are many Win98 games (and from that era) which fail on XP? If there
>are only a fraction say, then a really simple solution might be to
>just go with XP and DOSBox?

DOSBox is only a solution for MS-DOS games, so it won't help you with
any Windows 98 era games which by then were all Windows games. DOSBox is
pretty good all around solution to running for old MS-DOS games. Since it
emulates everything, including the CPU, it can be slow at running games
that require or benefit from a CPU faster than '486.

Almost any Windows game should run under the 32-bit versions of Windows
XP. You might need to use compatiblity mode to trick some games into
thinking they're running on Windows 98.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge.TakeThisOut@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On 14 Feb, 17:49, Ross Ridge <rri....DeleteThis@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
wrote:
> Mike S. <m....DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > Get the external versions of the internal ISA cards on Ebay. The
> > external version of the Roland LAPC-I is the MT-32. And the external
> > version of the SCC-1 is the SC-55 or SC-55mkII. You can connect these
> > devices with a midi + gameport cable or a midi + USB cable to any
> > computer with a gameport or USB connection. They should then work fine
> > in DosBox.
>
> rpgs rock dvds  <rpgsrockd....DeleteThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Pardon my ignorance, but do I need both or would one suffice?
>
> A Roland MT-32 or compatable external device would be the most useful.
> The MT-32 used something called LA synthesis generated sounds, and
> many games created custom sound effects using it that can't emulated on
> MIDI devices using wavetable synthesis.  General MIDI devices like the
> SC-55 can emulated by any other Gernerla MIDI device, like the software
> emulation included in Windows, so getting one of those is less important.
>
> >I had a look on ebay, and I think I found what you are referring to -
> >they look a little bit like digital TV set-top boxes - am I right?
>
> An MT-32 looks like the picture on this page:
>
>        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT-32
>
> It should cost around $50 on EBay, although they're not very common there
> anymore.  Other MT-32 compatable external devices include the Roland
> CM-32L, Roland CM-64, Roland CM-500, and Roland MT-100.  These devices
> are even rarer than the MT-32.
>
> >PS:  Pity modern mobo's don't have a spare ISA slot      (I mean,
> >unfortunately the external boxes mentioned above weren't cheap.)
>
> Well, a Roland LAPC-1 won't be much cheaper than a MT-32 and they're
> very hard to find these days.
>
>                                                 Ross Ridge
>
> --
>  l/  //   Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
> [oo][oo]  rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
> -()-/()/  http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
>  db  //  

At the end of that wikipedia article, it mentions a project called
Munt, and also something from Roland themselves called D-50. Both
appear to be MT-32 emulators of sorts - I haven't got the time right
now to check 'em out, but I thought I'd post my observation and will
look into this a bit later..

Thanks, regards, Robert.
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On 14 Feb, 17:27, Mike S. <m... RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:58:11 -0800 (PST), rpgs rock dvds
>
> <rpgsrockd... RemoveThis @hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >Pardon my ignorance, but do I need both or would one suffice?
>
> If you only want to spend the money on one, then I would get the
> MT-32. It is cheaper and many older dos games do not support general
> midi (which includes the SCC-1 and the SC-55) at all. It is also much
> easier to find on Ebay.
>
> >I had a look on ebay, and I think I found what you are referring to -
> >they look a little bit like digital TV set-top boxes - am I right?
>
> Here is a link to the MT-32 on Ebay. You should not pay more then $50
> max US dollars for it before shipping as far as I am concerned. You
> can pay considerably less then that if you can wait for the right
> deal. -->
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260211185506&...
>
> And here is a link for a SC-55 just to see what it looks like. I could
> not currently find one on Ebay. As I said, the MT-32 is easier to
> find. -->
>
> http://www.sonicstate.com/synth/_inc/picview.cfm?synthid=92
>
> If you have any questions about the MT-32, The SC-55 or Dosbox, just
> ask here.
>
> Alternatively, you can go to this link and ask your questions there.
> It is the forum for Sierra games. The forum has a section for MT-32
> questions and another for Sound Canvas (which includes the SCC-1 and
> the SC-55) questions. Very helpful people there. You would have to
> create an account first before you can post. -->
>
> http://queststudios.com/smf/index.php#2

Thanks a lot for the info & links.
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On 14 Feb, 15:06, riku <r....RemoveThis@none.invalid.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 06:12:39 -0800 (PST), rpgs rock dvds
>
> <rpgsrockd....RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> >If Win98's "restart in DOS mode" doesn't support all old DOS games,
>
> It does. It will not be a problem; your non-compatible hardware may
> be.
>
> Win98 is actually great for running many/most DOS games, ie. because
> it frees quite a lot of conventional memory with all drivers loaded
> (CD-ROM, mouse, HD cache etc.), and you can use USB controllers with
> DOS games when running them through Win98. I think it even allows you
> to get sounds from many sound cards which would not work in DOS mode.
>
> >then I either need DOS 6.22 itself or DOSBox.  I think there are games
> >which need older versions of Windows (like 9 which fail on XP.  I
> >think FF8 might be one of them, and I think that there are others.
>
> WinXP has compatibility mode that allows you to run many Win9x games
> on it that would fail otherwise, but I do not think it is 100%
> foolproof.
>
> >So, I guess I need DOS (6.22 or DOSBox), Win98 and also XP.  If I go
> >the DOSBox route, I guess that means dual-boot with w98 + XP?
>
> I guess the meaning was that you would have only XP loaded, and run
> both DOS games (with DOSBox) and Win9x games (either directly or using
> the compatibility mode) from it. It will not necessarily work with all
> games you throw at it, but it is the easiest solution to set up.
>
> >Or is
> >it possible to have all 3 of these OS's on one hard drive?
>
> Since in my experience multi-boot systems become a pain in the behind
> in the long run (at the latest when you want to re-install one of your
> operating systems and you are trying to figure out how to do it
> without screwing up the boot system), here's one suggestion:
>
> - Two separate hard drives. Install Win98(SE) on one of them, and XP
> on the other, and use extension cords for IDE and power cables so that
> you can keep the hard drives outside the PC case.
>
> - Whenever you want to switch OS, you will need to power down your PC
> and disconnect/reconnect the hard drives (power cable is enough).
>
> This way you can keep the two OSes completely separated from each
> others and they will not be messing up when you want to reformat
> certain partition and reinstall the OS (this may mess up the boot
> system). On the other hand, if you want to continously switch between
> XP and 98, this may be the worse solution.
>
> It depends what you see as more tiresome: having to swap HD for
> swapping OS, or possibly having to reinstall everything (including
> both OSes) whenever one of them needs reinstallation. I find this
> solution more straighforward.
>
> Anyway, as said, suitable hardware is more critical than what OSes you
> are going to use. A more complete solution is to have two different
> PCs:
>
> - Win98 machine which runs DOS and early Win9x games (includes
> hardware like Soundblaster 16, Roland sound cards and modules, 3Dfx
> Voodoo 2, Pentium 133-200MHz CPU etc.).
>
> - Modern WinXP machine running later Win98 and XP games.

Just out of curiousity I had a browse on ebay to look for a suitable
legacy machine, such as your Pentium P133 spec'd machine, and was
surprised that I couldn't find anything. (Maybe a local paper
classified ads would prove more fruitful.)
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

"rpgs rock dvds" <rpgsrockdvds.RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote
> I'd like to be able to play all my old games again, so I was
> thinking
> of setting up a dual boot system with XP and 98. Say I boot into
> 98,
> and then choose the "restart in DOS mode" option that it gives you -
> will this DOS mode (version 7 I think) run all old DOS games?
>
> Also, should I format 98 for FAT16 or FAT32? Basically I just want
> one machine that will guarantee to run nearly all my PC games
> ranging
> from old DOS games to XP ones.

If you are going to dual boot, why bother with Win98? Why not just
dual boot between DOS6.22 (for games up to about 1995/6) and XP (for
everything since)? IMO Win98 is definitely not the solution for
*really* old games (pre-1995). Others will know better than me, but I
don't think its "restart in DOS mode" is real DOS (ie. for running
DOS-extender games like Doom, and pretty much anything else made in
94/95).

How fast is your PC? If you have a not-too-old CPU (anything faster
than about 1.2GHz), DOSBox is a better solution than messing about
with dual boot. I use it to run all the classic mid-90s games (MoO1,
MoM, X-Com etc.) and it works fine. I just wish I could work out how
to get it to double in size, because 640x480 is tiny on my 1600x1200
desktop. There is a "x2" config option but it doesn't seem to work for
me.

While we're here, does anybody know of any games that will run under
Win98 but neither DOS6.22 nor WinXP? I don't.

CC
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:20:35 -0800 (PST), rpgs rock dvds
<rpgsrockdvds DeleteThis @hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>I'd like to be able to play all my old games again, so I was thinking
>of setting up a dual boot system with XP and 98.

If you already have WinXP, then get DOSBox 0.72 instead. All your DOS
games will work, with perfect support for SoundBlaster16/32, General
Midi, joystick, EMS/XMS, DOS4GW protected mode, CD drivers, mouse
drivers etc. In fact, it runs DOS games better than a PC equipped with
DOS 6.22,5.1 etc. It even supports Gravis Ultrasound.

You also don't have to worry about file system being FAT32 or NTFS.

There are also built-in CD-mount options, so if you want, you can play
a multi-CD game without needing to swap the CDs. You can also run any
virtual drive application for that matter.

DOSBox is also Alt-Tab safe, and you can run the games in window or
full-screen.

It's a completely free application.

I have run all sorts of games on DOSBox: Ultima 4 - 8, Crusader,
Strike Commander, Sierra and Lucasrts games, Might and Magic 3 - 5,
Tex Murphy games, Wing Commander and many more.
--
Noman
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

Mike S. <m... RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
> Get the external versions of the internal ISA cards on Ebay. The
> external version of the Roland LAPC-I is the MT-32. And the external
> version of the SCC-1 is the SC-55 or SC-55mkII. You can connect these
> devices with a midi + gameport cable or a midi + USB cable to any
> computer with a gameport or USB connection. They should then work fine
> in DosBox.

rpgs rock dvds <rpgsrockdvds RemoveThis @hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Pardon my ignorance, but do I need both or would one suffice?

A Roland MT-32 or compatable external device would be the most useful.
The MT-32 used something called LA synthesis generated sounds, and
many games created custom sound effects using it that can't emulated on
MIDI devices using wavetable synthesis. General MIDI devices like the
SC-55 can emulated by any other Gernerla MIDI device, like the software
emulation included in Windows, so getting one of those is less important.

>I had a look on ebay, and I think I found what you are referring to -
>they look a little bit like digital TV set-top boxes - am I right?

An MT-32 looks like the picture on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT-32

It should cost around $50 on EBay, although they're not very common there
anymore. Other MT-32 compatable external devices include the Roland
CM-32L, Roland CM-64, Roland CM-500, and Roland MT-100. These devices
are even rarer than the MT-32.

>PS: Pity modern mobo's don't have a spare ISA slot (I mean,
>unfortunately the external boxes mentioned above weren't cheap.)

Well, a Roland LAPC-1 won't be much cheaper than a MT-32 and they're
very hard to find these days.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge RemoveThis @csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Windows 98 and its DOS mode option