Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!!

On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:44:35 +0100, Dave wrote:
> Christian Stauffer wrote:
> > "Dave" <dave.RemoveThis@news.tk> wrote:
> >> Christian Stauffer wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think what Urbin wanted to say is that an item with stats like this:
> >>> Plate Helmet, 25 str, 10 agi, 10 sta
> >>> Would suddenly give AP to warriors and pallys which it didn't do before.
> >>
> >> Im not sure i can follow here. Wouldnt a Warrior have gotten 50 AP
> >> from the 25 Str on that item anyway?
> >
> > In Urbins example, some Agi on the item has been replaced by AP, to end
> > up with the exactly same amount of AP.
> >
> > My example would probably look like this if it was affected by the
> > revamp:
> > Before the patch: 25 str, 10 agi, 10 sta
> > After the patch: 25 str, 6 agi, 10 sta, 14 AP
> >
> > For a hunter, both versions offer the same amount of ranged AP: The old
> > one 2x10(agi) = 20 AP, the new one 1x6(agi) + 14 = 20 AP.
> >
> > Any other class capable of wearing this item will win 14 AP (at the
> > expense of a bit of crit/dodge/etc). So the warrior would've had 50
> > AP from the old version of the item, and 64 AP from the new version
> > of the item.

Thanks for putting my thoughts so well

> Ah yes, im following now
>
> Honestly i dont think they will change any items at all in this regard
> except Items with "Class: Hunter" in it.
>
> I looked up some popular Physical damage items on Thottbot and compared
> the Live DB with the Beta DB, and i only see the Changes on Items with
> "Class: Hunter" on it.

I also think this is what will happen. What about T0/T0.5 hunter sets? Like
all t0/t0.5 sets, they are not class restricted but clearly aimed at a
class. Either they will nerf hunters or boost shamans with those (not that I
would grudge the boost to shamans

Ah well, as Chris said, we'll see. I won't hurt too much, because on my
hunter, I'm mostly ZG epic (3/5, hoping for 4/5 soon), Giantstalker helmet
and then some non-specific +agi items. So I guess my epics will be balanced
out but I will losse some +agi from the blue items while gaining some DPS on
my bow. I'm sure I'll survive till january in that and once TBC is here, if
the reports I read here are valid, most of my gear will soon be replaced
anyway...

Cheers
Urbin
--
Urbin (60), Dwarven Hunter (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Sunh (60), Nightelven Priest (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
Juran (30), Nightelven Druid (PvE) @dunmorogh.de
[FAQ] Get the alt.games.warcraft faq from http://www.ursbeeli.ch/wow [FAQ]
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

wayne.yates RemoveThis @tradermedia.co.uk wrote:
> Warriors
>
>
> - Rage generation from dealing damage has been normalized.
> - All Rage awards are averaged with our expected rage per swing
> (adjusted for
> weapon speed).
>
>
> The above is a joke to us Fury specced warriors... Come on Blizzard
> give us somthing play with!!!
>

Read this: http://www.blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/37024708.htm

Understand it. If you don't, read it again until you do. THEN come back
and whine/quit. Thanks.

CU

René
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

Rene <invalid RemoveThis @email.addr> writes:
>Read this: http://www.blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/37024708.htm

That blue post summary site is excellent, thanks for the indirect pointer
to it! *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

I don't really know why they keep nerfing warriors. I gave up hoping
that someday warriors will be a strong class. Retired my 60 warrior
and now only play my mage.

On Dec 5, 7:45 am, wayne.ya....TakeThisOut@tradermedia.co.uk wrote:
> Warriors
>
> - Rage generation from dealing damage has been normalized.
> - All Rage awards are averaged with our expected rage per swing
> (adjusted for
> weapon speed).
>
> The above is a joke to us Fury specced warriors... Come on Blizzard
> give us somthing play with!!!
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

Dave wrote:
> Rene wrote:
> > You get your power ups with +damage on Gear. Warriors need a better
> Weapon to make up for that, albeit very poorly.
> There was a mismatch before the reitemization for Casters some year or
> so ago, but this is tempi pasati.
>
>
> I dont have any troubles at all to understand Rage Norm.
> And yes, the new Features a Warrior get in his Talent Tree or new
> abilites for that matter are very very underwhelming and lackluster.
> Nerfed will be the Whole Gear a warrior currently has due to Item rating
> (somthing that strangely doesnt affect casters for large parts), nerfed
> is the way Weapon Skill works (a direct nerf on warrior PvE DPS) and
> nerfed was on of the Warriors most defining ability: Rage.
>

Just want to make one little point. The rating system is not a nerf,
it's a conversion. If you were level 70, wearing level 60, it would be
a nerf, but that's not the case. The rating system just makes it so
gear does NOT scale with level (just like +dam/heal for casters, as
they level up, their +damage is propotionally less than it once was).
You can't say that "casters didn't get hit by it" because a) they
already had this in place with +dam/heal and b) their hit/crit is
changing to ratings as well. This adds more value to crit/hit
increases, because as it stood before, with flat percent increase,
you'd never get higher bonuses on higher level gear (they wouldn't put
5% crit on a lvl 70 item).

As for normalization, in theory, I like it. Rage generation was
becoming a joke. I am confused by the stark differences between
people's personal anecdotes about it and the devs descriptions of it.
Not sure if it's the devs with blinders on, or the typical whiners that
every class has (and who usually stay in the WoW forums).
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

Dave wrote:
> Eric D. Braden wrote:
> > Dave wrote:
> >> Rene wrote:
> >>> You get your power ups with +damage on Gear. Warriors need a better
> >> Weapon to make up for that, albeit very poorly.
> >> There was a mismatch before the reitemization for Casters some year or
> >> so ago, but this is tempi pasati.
> >>
> >>
> >> I dont have any troubles at all to understand Rage Norm.
> >> And yes, the new Features a Warrior get in his Talent Tree or new
> >> abilites for that matter are very very underwhelming and lackluster.
> >> Nerfed will be the Whole Gear a warrior currently has due to Item rating
> >> (somthing that strangely doesnt affect casters for large parts), nerfed
> >> is the way Weapon Skill works (a direct nerf on warrior PvE DPS) and
> >> nerfed was on of the Warriors most defining ability: Rage.
> >>
> >
> > Just want to make one little point. The rating system is not a nerf,
> > it's a conversion. If you were level 70, wearing level 60, it would be
> > a nerf, but that's not the case.
>
> It will be the case for many items for quite some levels.
> You wont magically replace all your gear with new Level Gear each time
> you ding.
> Of course, you will be able to gear up again at Level 70 to get back to
> the point where you started at Level 60, while casters getting more and
> more +damage on their gear all the way from 60 to 70+.
>

The implication here is that casters will be getting tons of gear every
single level and melee won't? What?

People will dimish in relative power as they are leveling vs raiding in
Naxx epics. Because the gear is static and the environment is not.
Once the environment is static (level 70), and the gear is not
(increasing tiers at the same level), the situation will reverse (for
everyone).

> > (just like +dam/heal for casters, as
> > they level up, their +damage is propotionally less than it once was).
>
> Can you point out to me how this mechanism is working? (the stuff about
> +damage getting devaluated)
> Up to today every single caster i asked wheter or not his +spelldamage
> will decrease as with other stats in the New Rating System denied this.
> Actually a whole IRC group full of 100+ people denied it when i just
> asked them now?

No. If you have an item with +10 damage at level 30, it's pretty
awesome. If your spell does 100 damage, 10 more is nice. If you're
level 60, it's much less useful. If your spell does 900 damage, 10
more is pretty irrelevant. That's what I mean by proportional. Just
as 20 crit rating is more valuable to a 60 than a 70, +20 damage is
more valuable to a 60 than a 70. The numbers are static, their
proportional (as in, the increase to your base performance) value
scales in reverse. So, +damage/heal already follows a similar mechanic
to the rating system (static numbers that have a less significant
effect as you level, just like stats, it takes more stats as you level
up to have the same proportional effect).
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

Dave wrote:

> Can you point out to me how this mechanism is working? (the stuff about
> +damage getting devaluated)

Numbers made up here but just showing the concept:

Get an item with +10 spell damage and a spell that does 100 damage
gives a 10% increase.
That same +10 damage a few levels later when the same spell has been
upgraded and does 200 damage gives a 5% increase.

Hence +spell damage gear doesn't scale with levels. Neither does
+healing gear.

With the old crit% method an armour piece that added 1% crit scaled
perfectly with level for casters and with level and weapon damage for
melee + hunters.

steve.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

Dave wrote:
> Eric D. Braden wrote:
> > Dave wrote:
> >> Eric D. Braden wrote:
> > The implication here is that casters will be getting tons of gear every
> > single level and melee won't? What?
>
> No, the implication is that Melee has to worry a lot more since they
> have to go toe to toe with their enemies, now that 5 out of their 6
> relevant stats get weaker everytime they level up, whereas caster
> classes only have to worry about their +spellcrit (+spellhit is mostly
> neglectable in leveling-up content)

They always had to "worry" about their +damage/healing. Please read
the other posts responding to this subject. +Dam/heal has always
scaled the way the new ratings do.

Your base stats, like Agility and Strength, has also always been
subject to this scaling.

>
> > People will dimish in relative power as they are leveling vs raiding in
> > Naxx epics. Because the gear is static and the environment is not.
> > Once the environment is static (level 70), and the gear is not
> > (increasing tiers at the same level), the situation will reverse (for
> > everyone).
>
> Your speced frostbolts will still hit at Level 68 for 1k and a slightly
> reduced chance for 2k on your average Level 68 mob.

What does this have to do with anything? We're talking about gear
stats, not complaining about mage damage.

>
> I will not only get hit for a ton more due to reduced armor, dodge,
> parry due to the Rating System, also my Damage output will suffer alot
> due to the reduction in +Hit and +Crit values.

You will not get hit for a ton more due to the ratings. At level 60,
you will be EXACTLY the same, with very small variations. At level 61,
those ratings will have a slightly lower (proportional) effect than
they did at 60. Just like Agility, Strength, Intellect, Stamina,
Spirit and +Spell Power always have.

> You do know that Warriors get Damage increases for getting new Weapons
> and either piling up Crit or piling up AP and going Dual Wield?

This doesn't change...It's just that the Blackhand's Breadth you got
when you first dinged 60 won't be as effective as you level up. Just
like the Bracers of Valor you got. As you level, their benefit
diminishes. Prior to this change, BB would be JUST as good at 70 as it
was at 60, unlike 99% of other gear.

> Admittedly, AP stays the same, very much like +spelldamage, but the
> problem is you have a much harder time to get your AP thru if your Hit
> rating is decreasing and decreasing.

Much harder is a vast exagerration. Yes, your +hit will
decrease...just like the benefit of 20 attack power will decrease.
Just like the benefit from every other stat will decrease, just like it
did from 1-60.

> lets not talk about the fact that +spelldamage has a ten timer higher
> impact on Damage Output then AP.

It's a different mechanic..considering us melees can up our attack
power by straight +AP or stats (Agi/Str for me, Str for you), and get
better weapons (on top of skill ranks/talents) to increase our damage,
and caster damage is affected only by talents and spell damage.

> > No. If you have an item with +10 damage at level 30, it's pretty
> > awesome. If your spell does 100 damage, 10 more is nice. If you're
> > level 60, it's much less useful. If your spell does 900 damage, 10
> > more is pretty irrelevant. That's what I mean by proportional. Just
> > as 20 crit rating is more valuable to a 60 than a 70,
> > +20 damage is
> > more valuable to a 60 than a 70.
>
> When you Level from 60 to 61 your spell damage will still be +910
> against 61 Mobs

No...your spell damage will still be +10. The spell itself will still
be 900. As a melee, our base damage (before ratings) will increase
just by leveling up.
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

Dave wrote:
> Christian Stauffer wrote:
>
> -snipped good explanation-
>
> Thanks for explaining me something i already knew, i know it was in good
> intention, but its completely unrelated to the Point im trying to make.
>
> Im not talking about the relative increase in Power
>

Hrm...actually, that's exaclty the point you're trying to make...
You're saying you'll get weaker as you level up, which is lvl 60
RELATIVE to lvl 6x. I guess you could say that you're talking about a
relative *decrease* in power.

The basic point is this: From 1-60, your individual stats had a
proportionally lower effect every time you levelled up. You got small
stat increases and new skills from leveling to compensate. And of
course, as you leveled you got new gear (at least 1 or 2 new pieces
every 5-6 levels, on the conservative side). Once you got to 60 and
started getting STATIC bonuses like +crit% and +hit% you left that
dynamic. You had stats which would NOT go down in their effectiveness
as you leveled, unlike everything else when you went from 1-60. Why
should leveling from 60-70 be any different. Mobs get progressively
harder as you level (sorry Chris, I don't like your lvl 10 vs lvl 50
analogy ). I could kill a mob in 4 seconds at level 15, and it
typically takes me about 15-30 seconds now. I would assume that this
progression will continue as well.
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

wayne.yates DeleteThis @tradermedia.co.uk wrote:
> Warriors
>
>
> - Rage generation from dealing damage has been normalized.
> - All Rage awards are averaged with our expected rage per swing
> (adjusted for
> weapon speed).
>
>
> The above is a joke to us Fury specced warriors... Come on Blizzard
> give us somthing play with!!!
>

Just wanted to add a note for people who do not know what normalization
means and why I want to point out, that it always was there:

Imagine a warrior at level 10, he wears a one-hander and does 15 damage
points per swing. At the other side stands a lvl60 warrior with some
purple weapon dealing 150 damage per swing. Both get the same amount
of rage, if they hit, thats five to seven (maybe, just an example)

The same it is for damage taken. Imagine a lvl10 warrior getting hit
by 10 damage points and a lvl60 T2 warrior tanking the anibisath
defender (see post Huhu down ... what now?) who gets 1200 damage
per hit. The lvl10 player will get 5 rage, and the lvl60 T2 tank
will not get 600 rage points, but only 10 or such.

This is what is called normalization, mostly by level.

Best regards,
Bart

P.S. I see forward to TBC, now I am a almost purely def specced tank,
but with TBC I think I'll give the fury arms specc a try. Looks really
promising (I've never played the beta, just to mention it)
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

Eric D. Braden wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>> Rene wrote:
>>> You get your power ups with +damage on Gear. Warriors need a better
>> Weapon to make up for that, albeit very poorly.
>> There was a mismatch before the reitemization for Casters some year or
>> so ago, but this is tempi pasati.
>>
>>
>> I dont have any troubles at all to understand Rage Norm.
>> And yes, the new Features a Warrior get in his Talent Tree or new
>> abilites for that matter are very very underwhelming and lackluster.
>> Nerfed will be the Whole Gear a warrior currently has due to Item rating
>> (somthing that strangely doesnt affect casters for large parts), nerfed
>> is the way Weapon Skill works (a direct nerf on warrior PvE DPS) and
>> nerfed was on of the Warriors most defining ability: Rage.
>>
>
> Just want to make one little point. The rating system is not a nerf,
> it's a conversion. If you were level 70, wearing level 60, it would be
> a nerf, but that's not the case.

It will be the case for many items for quite some levels.
You wont magically replace all your gear with new Level Gear each time
you ding.
Of course, you will be able to gear up again at Level 70 to get back to
the point where you started at Level 60, while casters getting more and
more +damage on their gear all the way from 60 to 70+.

> (just like +dam/heal for casters, as
> they level up, their +damage is propotionally less than it once was).

Can you point out to me how this mechanism is working? (the stuff about
+damage getting devaluated)
Up to today every single caster i asked wheter or not his +spelldamage
will decrease as with other stats in the New Rating System denied this.
Actually a whole IRC group full of 100+ people denied it when i just
asked them now?
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

"Dave" <dave DeleteThis @news.tk> wrote:

> It will be the case for many items for quite some levels.
> You wont magically replace all your gear with new Level Gear each time
> you ding.
> Of course, you will be able to gear up again at Level 70 to get back to
> the point where you started at Level 60, while casters getting more and
> more +damage on their gear all the way from 60 to 70+.

No, you're completely off here.

+ 100 spell power is of less value at level 61 than it is at level 60.
+ 50 stamina is of less value at level 61 than it is at level 60.
+ 2000 armor is of less value at level 61 than it is at level 60.
......
+ 20 hit rating is of less value at level 61 than it is at level 60.

Everything devalues (now, at last) as you level.

+1% to hit is ALWAYS 1% more damage. No matter whether you have it at
level 1, or at level 70. It ALWAYS increases your damage by 1%. And this
is wrong. All percentual values in the game, before the switch to the
rating system, are based on level 60s. This has two disadvantages:
- Before level 60 you hardly see +crit% items, and if you see them,
they are utterly bad (since 1% crit had a high value, level 40
items with 1% crit are almost free from other attributes)
- After level 60 those stats climb up to a state where you never wanted
them. There's already items with 2% (probably even 3%) crits on them,
and if the percentual values carried on to level 70 everyone would have
30-50% crit rates. Ouch.

> > (just like +dam/heal for casters, as
>> they level up, their +damage is propotionally less than it once was).
>
> Can you point out to me how this mechanism is working? (the stuff about
> +damage getting devaluated)
> Up to today every single caster i asked wheter or not his +spelldamage
> will decrease as with other stats in the New Rating System denied this.
> Actually a whole IRC group full of 100+ people denied it when i just
> asked them now?

Then they either didn't understand your question or they've no idea what
they're talking about.

Take those 2 examples (the numbers are made up, the conclusion isn't):

Level 1 mage with level 1 frost bolt. The frost bolt does an average of
10 damage. Add +2 spell power and it'll hit for 12, that's a 20% increase.

Level 1 warrior with level 1 heroic strike. The heroic strike does an
average of 10 damage. If he's got a 20% crit rate the HS will
statistically hit for 12 damage each time, that's a 20% increase.

Now the same mage at level 60 with level 10 frost bolt. The frost bolt now
hits for an average 500 damage. Add +2 spell power and he'll hit for 502,
that's a 0.5% increase.

And the same warrior, at level 60 with level 10 heroic strike. The heroic
strike hits for an average of 500 damage. If he's got a 20% crit rate the
HS will statistically hit for 600 damage each time, that's a 20% increase.

The +2 spell power didn't scale, the 20% crit did.

Now before you call comparing +2 spell power to 20% crit total bullshit,
please let me point out one thing again: Both those stats led to a 20%
increase at the level 1 example. One of those stats, without modifying
anything, still leads to a 20% damage boost at the level 60 example,
while the other one isn't noticeable anymore.

If that still didn't convince you, let's just pull out a practical
example: Your 25% crit are increasing your DPS by 25% now, and even if
you don't replace a single piece of equipment, they'll still increase
your DPS by 25% when you're level 70.

The +500 spell power of those casters you met on IRC may increase
their DPS by a certain percentage which I don't know, but I'll bet all
my ingame gold that those +500 spell power won't give the same
percentual DPS increase at level 70 anymore.

Back to the example, let's look at the warrior again:

Level 1: 200 crit rating, results in 20% crit, 12 instead of 10 damage
per strike, 20% increase.
Level 60: 200 crit rating, results in 2% crit, 510 instead of 600 damage
per strike, 2% increase.

That's how *every* other stat works as well, that's how it's supposed to
be, and that's the only way it actually makes sense.

Honestly, if you think the ratings are an unnecessary nerf, you didn't
understand both the mechanics and the reason why it's being changed.

No offense *hugs*.

Chris

--
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Gwaith - Short beastmaster (60) on EN Scarshield L. [RPPvP]
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 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!! 

Eric D. Braden wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>> Eric D. Braden wrote:
>>> Dave wrote:
>>>> Rene wrote:
>>>>> You get your power ups with +damage on Gear. Warriors need a better
>>>> Weapon to make up for that, albeit very poorly.
>>>> There was a mismatch before the reitemization for Casters some year or
>>>> so ago, but this is tempi pasati.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I dont have any troubles at all to understand Rage Norm.
>>>> And yes, the new Features a Warrior get in his Talent Tree or new
>>>> abilites for that matter are very very underwhelming and lackluster.
>>>> Nerfed will be the Whole Gear a warrior currently has due to Item rating
>>>> (somthing that strangely doesnt affect casters for large parts), nerfed
>>>> is the way Weapon Skill works (a direct nerf on warrior PvE DPS) and
>>>> nerfed was on of the Warriors most defining ability: Rage.
>>>>
>>> Just want to make one little point. The rating system is not a nerf,
>>> it's a conversion. If you were level 70, wearing level 60, it would be
>>> a nerf, but that's not the case.
>> It will be the case for many items for quite some levels.
>> You wont magically replace all your gear with new Level Gear each time
>> you ding.
>> Of course, you will be able to gear up again at Level 70 to get back to
>> the point where you started at Level 60, while casters getting more and
>> more +damage on their gear all the way from 60 to 70+.
>>
>
> The implication here is that casters will be getting tons of gear every
> single level and melee won't? What?

No, the implication is that Melee has to worry a lot more since they
have to go toe to toe with their enemies, now that 5 out of their 6
relevant stats get weaker everytime they level up, whereas caster
classes only have to worry about their +spellcrit (+spellhit is mostly
neglectable in leveling-up content)

> People will dimish in relative power as they are leveling vs raiding in
> Naxx epics. Because the gear is static and the environment is not.
> Once the environment is static (level 70), and the gear is not
> (increasing tiers at the same level), the situation will reverse (for
> everyone).

Your speced frostbolts will still hit at Level 68 for 1k and a slightly
reduced chance for 2k on your average Level 68 mob.

I will not only get hit for a ton more due to reduced armor, dodge,
parry due to the Rating System, also my Damage output will suffer alot
due to the reduction in +Hit and +Crit values.
You do know that Warriors get Damage increases for getting new Weapons
and either piling up Crit or piling up AP and going Dual Wield?
Admittedly, AP stays the same, very much like +spelldamage, but the
problem is you have a much harder time to get your AP thru if your Hit
rating is decreasing and decreasing.
lets not talk about the fact that +spelldamage has a ten timer higher
impact on Damage Output then AP.

>> > (just like +dam/heal for casters, as
>>> they level up, their +damage is propotionally less than it once was).
>> Can you point out to me how this mechanism is working? (the stuff about
>> +damage getting devaluated)
>> Up to today every single caster i asked wheter or not his +spelldamage
>> will decrease as with other stats in the New Rating System denied this.
>> Actually a whole IRC group full of 100+ people denied it when i just
>> asked them now?

> No. If you have an item with +10 damage at level 30, it's pretty
> awesome. If your spell does 100 damage, 10 more is nice. If you're
> level 60, it's much less useful. If your spell does 900 damage, 10
> more is pretty irrelevant. That's what I mean by proportional. Just
> as 20 crit rating is more valuable to a 60 than a 70,
> +20 damage is
> more valuable to a 60 than a 70.

When you Level from 60 to 61 your spell damage will still be +910
against 61 Mobs
When i Level up i will do less Damage with my current AP against the
increased mitigation rate of the Level 61 Mob, plus my overall damage
will get a serious hit due to decreasing +crit / +hit rate
 >> Stay informed about: Warriors nerfed again!"!!!!!