Warrior question

"Bruin" <bruinwarBLAH.DeleteThis@BLAHexcite.com> wrote in message news:POudnV2_j8wZNDjanZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@wideopenwest.com...
>
> When adding red gems to sockets, which is better for a protection tank? Agility for armor (& crits) or Strength for increased
> damage (with the increased threat in Defensive)?
>

Ignore the socket bonus and go with blue stam is my 1st suggestion.

Then agility?
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"Einstine" <noway.TakeThisOut@nohow.net> wrote in message
news:8Z6dnTAoYdtahzvanZ2dnUVZ_vyinZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Bruin" <bruinwarBLAH.TakeThisOut@BLAHexcite.com> wrote in message
> news:POudnV2_j8wZNDjanZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@wideopenwest.com...
>>
>> When adding red gems to sockets, which is better for a protection tank?
>> Agility for armor (& crits) or Strength for increased damage (with the
>> increased threat in Defensive)?
>>
>
> Ignore the socket bonus and go with blue stam is my 1st suggestion.
>
> Then agility?
>
>
I would agree on ignoring the socket bonus (unless it is amazingly good..
which is unlikely) and filling with +stam blues. Assuming you are already
at 490.
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On 2008-02-03, Bruin <bruinwarBLAH.RemoveThis@BLAHexcite.com> wrote:
>
> When adding red gems to sockets, which is better for a protection tank?
> Agility for armor (& crits) or Strength for increased damage (with the
> increased threat in Defensive)?

Depends on your gear.

First of all, you should be "uncrittable" (shifting the crit
probability out of the calculation table) by having 490 defense.

After that, you'll should aim for good values of stamina.

Never underestimate +hit!
http://www.tankhard.com/2007/09/13/hit-for-tanks-added-threat-and-dps/

Agility pushes armor (little), crit & dodge.
Strength pushes ap and shield blocks.

A good combination of both seems like a logical solution.

Our guild tank as a ratio of around 3:4 Agility:Strength.

--
Marco Dieckhoff
GPG Key 0x1A6C95BA -- http://www.frankonia-brunonia.de/keys
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Bruin wrote:
> So... opinions? Should I mix it up with Defense gems & Stamina gems? Or go
> for the socket bonuses? With all sockets on all my gear, putting +8
> defense would raise Defense to 480 in a fast estimate.

Start out going for the baseline stats you need, such as Defense and
Stamina, and forget the socket bonuses. Then, when your kit improves
to the point where you can afford to drop a few points of defense on
an item, you can start to pick up socket bonuses. Of course I have no
direct experience of this as healers don't have such important
requirements.

Hoofu, 70 tauren shaman, Argent Dawn (EU)
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On Feb 5, 1:49 pm, deathsab....DeleteThis@yahoo.com.au (Ashen Shugar) wrote:

> Certainly a good idea if you have any hopes of tanking in any
> raids/heroics.  However if you're happy enough at the moment just
> running the normal 5 mans for possibly better gear/fun, then I
> wouldn't worry *too* much about hitting the 490 defense or whatever it
> is.  That after all, is only required for raid bosses.  The bosses in
> heroics are only level 72, so require 5 less defense, and in
> non-heroics, the occasional crit probably isn't going to be a super
> big issue anyway.  Possibly more useful for non-heroics is upping your
> dps/threat per second so the dps don't have to worry as much about
> pulling agro and you can have fast runs.
> Just remember that in heroics/raids a crit could be an issue so make
> sure your defense is right up there before you try tanking them.

It seems to me that if you have less than the magic defence number,
the greater risk is being kicked by people who are obsessed with it,
rather than getting repeatedly slaughtered by the monsters.

I did Auchenai Crypts Heroic a while ago with a warrior tank who had
384 defence. The healer was in blues too, and one of the DPSers had a
lot of green showing. We did have a number of wipes, but IIRC a lot
of that was due to peoples unfamiliarity with the need to kill the
undead adds rapidly in order.

People starting heroics with not-great gear are going to be facing
some wipe-age anyway. I don't see that it matters much if the odd
wipe comes from a double crit on the tank. The impression I get is
that nobody would mind a wipe if the tank failed to taunt a mob off
the healer due to lack of +hit, because according to doctrine +hit
doesn't matter and defence does.

- Gerry Quinn
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On Feb 5, 10:26 am, gerryq <ger... DeleteThis @indigo.ie> wrote:

> I did Auchenai Crypts Heroic a while ago with a warrior tank who had
> 384 defence. The healer was in blues too, and one of the DPSers had a
> lot of green showing. We did have a number of wipes, but IIRC a lot
> of that was due to peoples unfamiliarity with the need to kill the
> undead adds rapidly in order.

If Auch Crypts is that easy on Heroic mode I'm going to have to give
it a try with my guilds new tank and see how he does in greens and
blues. I was under the impression that that particular instance was
one of the harder Heroics.


> The impression I get is
> that nobody would mind a wipe if the tank failed to taunt a mob off
> the healer due to lack of +hit, because according to doctrine +hit
> doesn't matter and defence does.
>
> - Gerry Quinn

Ummm, what does +Hit have to do with the Taunt ability? +Hit
shouldn't matter until your defense is at the point where you're tank
is un-crit/crushable (I can never remember which it is, not being a
tank) by the bosses you're choosing to go up against.

If you're going to stay in 5 mans and heroics, 485 is where you need
to be. 490 (or is it 494?) for Raids.
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In article
<9a16b24d-3317-4931-b9b0-7de4a17c9d0b.DeleteThis@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Aboo <jhemphill.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 5, 10:26 am, gerryq <ger....DeleteThis@indigo.ie> wrote:

> > The impression I get is
> > that nobody would mind a wipe if the tank failed to taunt a mob off
> > the healer due to lack of +hit, because according to doctrine +hit
> > doesn't matter and defence does.
> >
> > - Gerry Quinn
>
> Ummm, what does +Hit have to do with the Taunt ability?

Taunt is affected by +Hit since patch 2.3.

> +Hit
> shouldn't matter until your defense is at the point where you're tank
> is un-crit/crushable (I can never remember which it is, not being a
> tank) by the bosses you're choosing to go up against.
>
> If you're going to stay in 5 mans and heroics, 485 is where you need
> to be. 490 (or is it 494?) for Raids.

Attaining 490 defense for raid boss uncritability is the first priority,
but a Prot warrior running Karazhan and heroics will achieve that
quickly and easily. It's really a question of what you concentrate on
after that point.
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I think it was PhilHibbs <snarks RemoveThis @gmail.com> that wrote something
like...

>Bruin wrote:
>> So... opinions? Should I mix it up with Defense gems & Stamina gems? Or go
>> for the socket bonuses? With all sockets on all my gear, putting +8
>> defense would raise Defense to 480 in a fast estimate.
>
>Start out going for the baseline stats you need, such as Defense and
>Stamina, and forget the socket bonuses. Then, when your kit improves
>to the point where you can afford to drop a few points of defense on
>an item, you can start to pick up socket bonuses. Of course I have no
>direct experience of this as healers don't have such important
>requirements.
>
>Hoofu, 70 tauren shaman, Argent Dawn (EU)

Certainly a good idea if you have any hopes of tanking in any
raids/heroics. However if you're happy enough at the moment just
running the normal 5 mans for possibly better gear/fun, then I
wouldn't worry *too* much about hitting the 490 defense or whatever it
is. That after all, is only required for raid bosses. The bosses in
heroics are only level 72, so require 5 less defense, and in
non-heroics, the occasional crit probably isn't going to be a super
big issue anyway. Possibly more useful for non-heroics is upping your
dps/threat per second so the dps don't have to worry as much about
pulling agro and you can have fast runs.
Just remember that in heroics/raids a crit could be an issue so make
sure your defense is right up there before you try tanking them.

Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
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I think it was Aboo <jhemphill DeleteThis @gmail.com> that wrote something like...

>On Feb 5, 10:26 am, gerryq <ger... DeleteThis @indigo.ie> wrote:
>
>> I did Auchenai Crypts Heroic a while ago with a warrior tank who had
>> 384 defence. The healer was in blues too, and one of the DPSers had a
>> lot of green showing. We did have a number of wipes, but IIRC a lot
>> of that was due to peoples unfamiliarity with the need to kill the
>> undead adds rapidly in order.
>
>If Auch Crypts is that easy on Heroic mode I'm going to have to give
>it a try with my guilds new tank and see how he does in greens and
>blues. I was under the impression that that particular instance was
>one of the harder Heroics.

Apart from the 2nd boss, I don't think it's too bad so long as either
everyone knows what's going on, or you have someone that can explain
it well enough to get you all through. The problem is, you really
want to CC *all* the mobs you can see, as undead mobs soon spawn after
the pull. They may not be elite, but they can still cause problems.

>> The impression I get is
>> that nobody would mind a wipe if the tank failed to taunt a mob off
>> the healer due to lack of +hit, because according to doctrine +hit
>> doesn't matter and defence does.
>>
>> - Gerry Quinn
>
>Ummm, what does +Hit have to do with the Taunt ability? +Hit
>shouldn't matter until your defense is at the point where you're tank
>is un-crit/crushable (I can never remember which it is, not being a
>tank) by the bosses you're choosing to go up against.
>
>If you're going to stay in 5 mans and heroics, 485 is where you need
>to be. 490 (or is it 494?) for Raids.

Your chance to hit is the same as your chance to get a taunt of
successfully from all I hear. So if you have no +hit and you're
trying to taunt a level 72 boss at level 70, then there's like a 6%
chance the taunt will fail.

+defense and uncritability is all well and good (uncrushability has
nothing to do with the +def you stack and only with your avoidance,
ie, block, dodge and parry (though +def adds to those) and the +block
you get from shield block/holy shield ), but if you're not hitting the
mobs, you're not generating threat. You need to find the right
balance between mitigation so you're not getting damaged too much for
the healer to handle, and threat generation so the dps don't have to
damp down so much that the fight goes on so long the healer ends up
running out of mana.

From my experiences as a shadow priest healing and as a less than
level 70 tank, tanking is a lot more intense than healing. Healing it
seems to be a lot easier to stand back and see everything that's going
on. Tanking you're worried about generating sufficient threat on the
main target, but also worrying about keeping any off tanked mobs off
the healer and about any CC'ed mobs that might get lose and take out
your healing support before they can be re-CC'ed. I mean, *sure* the
square is supposed to being chain trapped, but what happens if the
hunter in your PUG isn't quite up to that? Do you just ignore it and
let it kill the hunter and then the healer?
And then what about when the huntard in the party multi-shots as his
first or second attack before you have a chance to do anything much?
And then of course the people that are attacking the main target like
they should be pull agro because you're busy pulling the off-tank
target off the huntard or the warlock who likes to DoT everything in
sight.
Don't get me wrong. I *like* tanking. But only because it's so much
more of a challenge. And I'm proud to say I don't ever recall a
healer dying before I did. I'm not sure if even any of the dps died
before I did all that often. I do recall a couple of time a kitty
druid changing to bear form to finish of a boss after I died, but
that's it, and that not very often. : )

Tanking is not for the faint of heart, but if you like a challenge,
tanking PUG's is where it's at! ; )

Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
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"chocolatemalt" <myothername.DeleteThis@dim.com.removethis> wrote in message
news:myothername-A0ADA4.12291805022008@news.isp.giganews.com...
> In article
> <9a16b24d-3317-4931-b9b0-7de4a17c9d0b.DeleteThis@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> Aboo <jhemphill.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 5, 10:26 am, gerryq <ger....DeleteThis@indigo.ie> wrote:
>
>> > The impression I get is
>> > that nobody would mind a wipe if the tank failed to taunt a mob off
>> > the healer due to lack of +hit, because according to doctrine +hit
>> > doesn't matter and defence does.
>> >
>> > - Gerry Quinn
>>
>> Ummm, what does +Hit have to do with the Taunt ability?
>
> Taunt is affected by +Hit since patch 2.3.
>
>> +Hit
>> shouldn't matter until your defense is at the point where you're tank
>> is un-crit/crushable (I can never remember which it is, not being a
>> tank) by the bosses you're choosing to go up against.
>>
>> If you're going to stay in 5 mans and heroics, 485 is where you need
>> to be. 490 (or is it 494?) for Raids.
>
> Attaining 490 defense for raid boss uncritability is the first priority,
> but a Prot warrior running Karazhan and heroics will achieve that
> quickly and easily. It's really a question of what you concentrate on
> after that point.


Well, very cool, got my Defense up to 456 now. In the middle of a quest
line who's final reward is a "Protector's Mark of the Redemption"

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31078

& that will put me at 479...... be at 490 in no time. =)

Thanks everyone for your relies!
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On Feb 5, 4:41 pm, Aboo <jhemph... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 10:26 am, gerryq <ger... DeleteThis @indigo.ie> wrote:
>
> > I did Auchenai Crypts Heroic a while ago with a warrior tank who had
> > 384 defence.  The healer was in blues too, and one of the DPSers had a
> > lot of green showing.  We did have a number of wipes, but IIRC a lot
> > of that was due to peoples unfamiliarity with the need to kill the
> > undead adds rapidly in order.
>
> If Auch Crypts is that easy on Heroic mode I'm going to have to give
> it a try with my guilds new tank and see how he does in greens and
> blues.  I was under the impression that that particular instance was
> one of the harder Heroics.

It's a bit of a vicious circle: you need to know it to get through
without repeated wipes, so most people don't go there, so few people
know it. And thus it is hard in practice.

I think it is relatively easy in terms of how hard the mobs hit
though, except for the monks, and an elite skeleton 5-pull.

The problem is that every humanoid mob you aggro (even if you CC him)
causes an undead non-elite to appear, one of five types at random:
Possessor (casts a very nasty charm spell, must die before he gets it
off)
Cleric (healer, second to die)
Mage (third on list)
Hunter & Soldier (must be picked up before they attack cloth). The
last two are usually next to die, though a paladin tank I was with
preferred us to leave them and go onto the marked mobs.

So DPS must be awake to get the casters, and the tank must be awake to
get the melee adds. Obviously with this influx of adds, most of the
humanoids will want to be crowd controlled. Near the end some AOE
will be needed.

The bosses aren't too bad, although the first needs a bit of
learning. When all know the instance, it's still possible to have an
unlucky wipe or too, but it's not really hard in the sense that there
are no single big obstacles.

- Gerry Quinn
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Ashen Shugar wrote:
> I think it was Aboo <jhemphill.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> that wrote something like...
>
>
>>On Feb 5, 10:26 am, gerryq <ger....TakeThisOut@indigo.ie> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I did Auchenai Crypts Heroic a while ago with a warrior tank who had
>>>384 defence. The healer was in blues too, and one of the DPSers had a
>>>lot of green showing. We did have a number of wipes, but IIRC a lot
>>>of that was due to peoples unfamiliarity with the need to kill the
>>>undead adds rapidly in order.
>>
>>If Auch Crypts is that easy on Heroic mode I'm going to have to give
>>it a try with my guilds new tank and see how he does in greens and
>>blues. I was under the impression that that particular instance was
>>one of the harder Heroics.
>
>
> Apart from the 2nd boss, I don't think it's too bad so long as either
> everyone knows what's going on, or you have someone that can explain
> it well enough to get you all through. The problem is, you really
> want to CC *all* the mobs you can see, as undead mobs soon spawn after
> the pull. They may not be elite, but they can still cause problems.
>
>
>>>The impression I get is
>>>that nobody would mind a wipe if the tank failed to taunt a mob off
>>>the healer due to lack of +hit, because according to doctrine +hit
>>>doesn't matter and defence does.
>>>
>>>- Gerry Quinn
>>
>>Ummm, what does +Hit have to do with the Taunt ability? +Hit
>>shouldn't matter until your defense is at the point where you're tank
>>is un-crit/crushable (I can never remember which it is, not being a
>>tank) by the bosses you're choosing to go up against.
>>
>>If you're going to stay in 5 mans and heroics, 485 is where you need
>>to be. 490 (or is it 494?) for Raids.
>
>
> Your chance to hit is the same as your chance to get a taunt of
> successfully from all I hear. So if you have no +hit and you're
> trying to taunt a level 72 boss at level 70, then there's like a 6%
> chance the taunt will fail.
>
> +defense and uncritability is all well and good (uncrushability has
> nothing to do with the +def you stack and only with your avoidance,
> ie, block, dodge and parry (though +def adds to those) and the +block
> you get from shield block/holy shield ), but if you're not hitting the
> mobs, you're not generating threat. You need to find the right
> balance between mitigation so you're not getting damaged too much for
> the healer to handle, and threat generation so the dps don't have to
> damp down so much that the fight goes on so long the healer ends up
> running out of mana.
>
> From my experiences as a shadow priest healing and as a less than
> level 70 tank, tanking is a lot more intense than healing. Healing it
> seems to be a lot easier to stand back and see everything that's going
> on. Tanking you're worried about generating sufficient threat on the
> main target, but also worrying about keeping any off tanked mobs off
> the healer and about any CC'ed mobs that might get lose and take out
> your healing support before they can be re-CC'ed. I mean, *sure* the
> square is supposed to being chain trapped, but what happens if the
> hunter in your PUG isn't quite up to that? Do you just ignore it and
> let it kill the hunter and then the healer?

This matches my experience. I've healed most normal level 70 dungeons as
a feral druid, and tanked all of them, and tanked most heroics (never
*tanked* in heroic durnholde). But it depends on the situation. Tanking
in 5 man dungeons can be pretty stressful and tricky, to various degrees
determined by the mobs in the dungeon (fearing, stunning, mind
controlling all create big difficulties for tanks). However, with a
decent tank, the healer should only have to worry about healing one
target most of the time. So it isn't that stressful healing, while
tanking is. Tanking in heroics is harder than tanking in Karazhan for
example because heroics throw more tricks at you.

I've never healed in a raid but I'm willing to bet this changes rapidly.
As a tank, on the first easyish 25 man bosses, and even on the trash
leading up to it, your tasks are relatively simple. Tank 1 or 2 targets
on trash, or tank the boss. That's it (except Lurker, in the add phase,
or Morogrim with a paladin needing to tank the adds). The tanks job
becomes simple in those fights while healers have to organise themselves
well, and *need* to adjust their healing style accordingly. They need to
heal splash damage on raid, need to keep the tanks up, need to keep
themselves up, need to time their heals well, need to try conserve mana,
etc. It sounds like a stressful job to me, and one that involves sitting
and staring at health/mana bars for large amounts of time.

> And then what about when the huntard in the party multi-shots as his
> first or second attack before you have a chance to do anything much?
> And then of course the people that are attacking the main target like
> they should be pull agro because you're busy pulling the off-tank
> target off the huntard or the warlock who likes to DoT everything in
> sight.

*sigh* This happens not only in pugs. Even in guild runs I need to deal
with this. DPS become so casual about everything because we're geared
quite well and heroics become easier, that they tend to push the limits
and compete with each other, making them forget or ignore basic
principles. Pulling aggro off a tank is bad in so many ways. I could
explain it all again, but even if you think it's fun to compete for
highest dps, don't do it. It makes tanks sad.
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