[Vulture] Vulture's eye wish list

On 4 Fev, 14:12, Ido Yehieli <Ido.Yehi....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2:46 pm, Gerry Quinn <ger....DeleteThis@indigo.ie> wrote:
>
> > Maybe it's just me, but I don't think isometric graphics work well
> > without animation.
>
> It's not just you.
> I have no problem with static 2d tiles, but it just doesn't look right
> with isometric graphics.
>
> -Ido.

Unless it's THIS:

http://mayday.w.staszic.waw.pl/~mayday/files/dwarf_show.png

(Dwarf Fortress mock-up, FYI)

I hope your eyeballs didn't pop out.

Jotaf
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On Feb 4, 5:55 pm, jota....RemoveThis@hotmail.com wrote:
> Unless it's THIS:
> http://mayday.w.staszic.waw.pl/~mayday/files/dwarf_show.png

That's so very pretty.

-Ido.
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jotaf98.RemoveThis@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 4 Fev, 14:12, Ido Yehieli <Ido.Yehi....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 4, 2:46 pm, Gerry Quinn <ger....RemoveThis@indigo.ie> wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think isometric graphics work well
>>> without animation.
>> It's not just you.
>> I have no problem with static 2d tiles, but it just doesn't look right
>> with isometric graphics.
>>
>> -Ido.
>
> Unless it's THIS:
>
> http://mayday.w.staszic.waw.pl/~mayday/files/dwarf_show.png
>
> (Dwarf Fortress mock-up, FYI)
>
> I hope your eyeballs didn't pop out.
>
> Jotaf

As paris hilton would say:

Oooh thats hot.
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In article <f388e272-af42-4ce9-af2f-
8ba509b4febf.TakeThisOut@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, aykavil.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com says...
> Hi all,
>
> Before opening fire, let me tell you how much I enjoy Vulture's Eye
> NetHack interface. It sure is unwieldy, but for unimaginative folks
> like me, it makes NetHack much more of a CRPG (and less of a strategy
> game), and that is fun. (Well at least for me, YMMV).
>
> However, before thinking of grand things like animations etc... a few
> things need fixing:

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think isometric graphics work well
without animation. I suppose it might be just a case of getting used to
it.

> 6/ (this may be difficult) diagonal corridors (in which an unecumbered
> hero may squeeze) should
> look connected.

Maybe beveled corners on the appropriate wall blocks are the answer
here.

- Gerry Quinn
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Hi Aykavil,

[I wrote a bunch of the code in vultures, so I'll respond to this...]

aykavil.RemoveThis@hotmail.com wrote:
> Before opening fire, let me tell you how much I enjoy Vulture's Eye
> NetHack interface. It sure is unwieldy, but for unimaginative folks
> like me, it makes NetHack much more of a CRPG (and less of a strategy
> game), and that is fun. (Well at least for me, YMMV).

Thanks!

> However, before thinking of grand things like animations etc... a few
> things need fixing:
>
> 1/ Make it possible to get 3 out of 5 food rations from a container.
> If it is already possible, make it obvious or document it (this is
> actually a bug).

Is this even possible in vanilla NetHack? If it is, this is a bug,
otherwise it isn't.

> 2/ Materialize the invisible hero on the main view and on the map.
> Currently, being invisible without see invisible is a pain in the ass.
> (Awkward work-around: enter ;kl. at each turn to recenter the mouse
> cursor).

Hm. Indeed. It apparently hasn't ever happened to me, or I'd have fixed
that... That just shows how incomplete the coverage from play-testing
can be, I guess.
I'll get to it next week (I'm way too busy currently)

> 3/ Tilt the map by 45° so that it has the same orientation as the main
> view. This would help avoid pushing boulders in Sokoban's corners.

The keys rotate to match the view; many months ago people agreed that
this combination (straight map, straight keys) works best.
The map is primarily intended to give an overview of the level; the
ability to move while it is open got added later.
A rotated map would be worse for "getting the big picture".
So if moving while the map is open confuses you, simply don't do that.

> 4/ Change the tile for the Monk. It actually made me #quit in
> frustration.

Find a graphic artist to do it; they're harder to come by than
programmers. *I* certainly can't draw usable tiles.

> 5/ Add 'Fight' in the monster context menu. It's kind of silly that
> you can not fight with the mouse only.

The default action when you click on a monster is to fight it, just like
the default for doors is to open them. IOW whatever do you need a
context menu entry for?

> 6/ (this may be difficult) diagonal corridors (in which an unecumbered
> hero may squeeze) should
> look connected.

Right, it is difficult. Consider the following pattern:
# # #
# #
# # #
You can't "just" have extra diagonal pieces of wall, you'd have to cover
a whole bunch of special cases. This would require careful thought and
someone who can actually draw all the required pieces.

Bye,
Daniel
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Daniel Thaler <daniel.RemoveThis@invalid.address.com> wrote:
>aykavil@hotmail.com wrote:
>> 1/ Make it possible to get 3 out of 5 food rations from a container.
>> If it is already possible, make it obvious or document it (this is
>> actually a bug).
>
>Is this even possible in vanilla NetHack?

Yes; specifying a number of items when using item lists is a feature
that has existed since forever. You type a number, then the letter of
the item in the list.
--
\_\/_/ some girls wander by mistake into the mess that scalpels make
\ / are you the teachers of my heart? we teach old hearts to break
\/ --- Leonard Cohen, "Teachers"
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Daniel Thaler wrote:
> Right, it is difficult. Consider the following pattern:
> # # #
> # #
> # # #

Looks like this got mangled. I meant
.. # # #
.. # #
.. # # #

-Daniel
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Martin Read wrote:
> Daniel Thaler wrote:
>> aykavil wrote:
>>> 1/ Make it possible to get 3 out of 5 food rations from a container.
>>> If it is already possible, make it obvious or document it (this is
>>> actually a bug).
>>
>> Is this even possible in vanilla NetHack?
>
> Yes; specifying a number of items when using item lists is a feature
> that has existed since forever. You type a number, then the letter of
> the item in the list.

Exactly. Vanilla NetHack menu entries are marked '-' (not selected)
'+' (selected)
or '#' (partially selected). The QT interface has a hidden textfield
left of the checkbox.

"+/-" buttons are not the ideal solution because of stacks of 1431
gold pieces.
In the project I'm currently working on, I opted for a combination
button/textfield
where the button toggles the textfield to minimum/maximum value, where
you can type inside
the textfield, and where the textfield responds to up/down arrow keys
by +/- 1, and to
pageup/pagedown keys by +/- 10. That's probably not the best solution,
just a workable idea.

Daniel Thaler wrote:
> Aykavil wrote:
>> 3/ Tilt the map by 45° so that it has the same orientation as the main
>> view. This would help avoid pushing boulders in Sokoban's corners.
>
> The keys rotate to match the view; many months ago people agreed that
> this combination (straight map, straight keys) works best.
> The map is primarily intended to give an overview of the level; the
> ability to move while it is open got added later.
> A rotated map would be worse for "getting the big picture".
> So if moving while the map is open confuses you, simply don't do that.

I understand it could be a controversial issue. ok, then.

>> 4/ Change the tile for the Monk. It actually made me #quit in
>> frustration.
>
> Find a graphic artist to do it; they're harder to come by than
> programmers. *I* certainly can't draw usable tiles.

I suspected as much (I can't do it either). By the way, animations
would increase
the number of needed tiles by at least a factor of 5.

> > 5/ Add 'Fight' in the monster context menu. It's kind of silly that
> > you can not fight with the mouse only.
>
> The default action when you click on a monster is to fight it, just like
> the default for doors is to open them. IOW whatever do you need a
> context menu entry for?

Never tried that (my bad). However, left-clicking on the floor moves
you there,
but there is also a right-click entry for movement.

>> 6/ (this may be difficult) diagonal corridors (in which an unecumbered
>> hero may squeeze) should
>> look connected.
>
> Right, it is difficult. Consider the following pattern:
> # # #
>   # #
> # # #
> You can't "just" have extra diagonal pieces of wall, you'd have to cover
> a whole bunch of special cases. This would require careful thought and
> someone who can actually draw all the required pieces.

Apart from the actual drawing part, I don't find it to be
algorithmically difficult.
Consider the south part of a wall/rock block X surrounded by ABCDEFGH:
ABC
DXE
FGH
G is an open space (otherwise X has no south wall).
Is D an open space?
yes => beveled corner connected to the wall west of X.
no => Is F an open space ?
yes => keep current drawing (connects to wall south of D, or
leads to unknown)
no => keep current drawing (connects to wall east of F)
Therefore, I really see only one test ("Is D open space") to be
performed. It seems to
work with all examples I'm capable of thinking of.
--
Aykavil
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aykavil.RemoveThis@hotmail.com wrote:
> Martin Read wrote:
>> Daniel Thaler wrote:
>>> aykavil wrote:
>>>> 1/ Make it possible to get 3 out of 5 food rations from a container.
>>>> If it is already possible, make it obvious or document it (this is
>>>> actually a bug).
>>> Is this even possible in vanilla NetHack?
>> Yes; specifying a number of items when using item lists is a feature
>> that has existed since forever. You type a number, then the letter of
>> the item in the list.
>
> Exactly. Vanilla NetHack menu entries are marked '-' (not selected)
> '+' (selected)
> or '#' (partially selected). The QT interface has a hidden textfield
> left of the checkbox.
>
> "+/-" buttons are not the ideal solution because of stacks of 1431
> gold pieces.
> In the project I'm currently working on, I opted for a combination
> button/textfield
> where the button toggles the textfield to minimum/maximum value, where
> you can type inside
> the textfield, and where the textfield responds to up/down arrow keys
> by +/- 1, and to
> pageup/pagedown keys by +/- 10. That's probably not the best solution,
> just a workable idea.

I see. This is basically a UI issue (which is not made any easier by the
fact that NetHack does not give any information to the Interface whether
to allow counts or not: You can actually use counts in the options menu
which makes absolutely no sense)
If I think of anything good I'll implement it.

> Daniel Thaler wrote:
>> Aykavil wrote:
>>> 3/ Tilt the map by 45° so that it has the same orientation as the main
>>> view. This would help avoid pushing boulders in Sokoban's corners.
>> The keys rotate to match the view; many months ago people agreed that
>> this combination (straight map, straight keys) works best.
>> The map is primarily intended to give an overview of the level; the
>> ability to move while it is open got added later.
>> A rotated map would be worse for "getting the big picture".
>> So if moving while the map is open confuses you, simply don't do that.
>
> I understand it could be a controversial issue. ok, then.
>
>>> 4/ Change the tile for the Monk. It actually made me #quit in
>>> frustration.
>> Find a graphic artist to do it; they're harder to come by than
>> programmers. *I* certainly can't draw usable tiles.
>
> I suspected as much (I can't do it either). By the way, animations
> would increase
> the number of needed tiles by at least a factor of 5.
>
>>> 5/ Add 'Fight' in the monster context menu. It's kind of silly that
>>> you can not fight with the mouse only.
>> The default action when you click on a monster is to fight it, just like
>> the default for doors is to open them. IOW whatever do you need a
>> context menu entry for?
>
> Never tried that (my bad). However, left-clicking on the floor moves
> you there,
> but there is also a right-click entry for movement.

So it's inconsistent. Do you think adding fight or removing move would
make more sense?

>>> 6/ (this may be difficult) diagonal corridors (in which an unecumbered
>>> hero may squeeze) should
>>> look connected.
>> Right, it is difficult. Consider the following pattern:
>> # # #
>> # #
>> # # #
>> You can't "just" have extra diagonal pieces of wall, you'd have to cover
>> a whole bunch of special cases. This would require careful thought and
>> someone who can actually draw all the required pieces.
>
> Apart from the actual drawing part, I don't find it to be
> algorithmically difficult.
> Consider the south part of a wall/rock block X surrounded by ABCDEFGH:
> ABC
> DXE
> FGH
> G is an open space (otherwise X has no south wall).
> Is D an open space?
> yes => beveled corner connected to the wall west of X.
> no => Is F an open space ?
> yes => keep current drawing (connects to wall south of D, or
> leads to unknown)
> no => keep current drawing (connects to wall east of F)
> Therefore, I really see only one test ("Is D open space") to be
> performed. It seems to
> work with all examples I'm capable of thinking of.

I must admit that I confused your idea with the related idea of drawing
diagonal corridors as diagonals...

Bye,
Daniel
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In article <32d00aca-3f43-4b39-adfa-7dfdaaea8531
@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, jotaf98 RemoveThis @hotmail.com says...
> On 4 Fev, 14:12, Ido Yehieli <Ido.Yehi... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 4, 2:46 pm, Gerry Quinn <ger... RemoveThis @indigo.ie> wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe it's just me, but I don't think isometric graphics work well
> > > without animation.
> >
> > It's not just you.
> > I have no problem with static 2d tiles, but it just doesn't look right
> > with isometric graphics.
> >
> > -Ido.
>
> Unless it's THIS:
>
> http://mayday.w.staszic.waw.pl/~mayday/files/dwarf_show.png
>
> (Dwarf Fortress mock-up, FYI)
>
> I hope your eyeballs didn't pop out.

It looks nice, but a static screenshot doesn't answer the question of
whether animation is needed.

Maybe it isn't, as DF is, as I understand it, a strategy game rather
than a roguelike, or a strategy game with a fairly undeveloped roguelike
component.

- Gerry Quinn






--
Lair of the Demon Ape (a coffee-break roguelike)
<http://indigo.ie/~gerryq/lair/lair.htm>
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This message is not archived
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discussion moved to r.g.r.d
--
Aykavil
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On 6 Fev, 12:53, Gerry Quinn <ger....DeleteThis@indigo.ie> wrote:
> It looks nice, but a static screenshot doesn't answer the question of
> whether animation is needed.
>
> Maybe it isn't, as DF is, as I understand it, a strategy game rather
> than a roguelike, or a strategy game with a fairly undeveloped roguelike
> component.
>
> - Gerry Quinn
>
> --
> Lair of the Demon Ape (a coffee-break roguelike)
> <http://indigo.ie/~gerryq/lair/lair.htm>

As far as animation goes, I'm sure that sliding the dwarves around for
movement, as well as moving them against the enemy and back for
hitting in combat (early-final-fantasies' style), would be more than
enough. Hardly a technical challenge once you're able to display these
basic sprites

Jotaf
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