Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?)

Marypop wrote:
> "Thomas J. Boschloo" ...
>> Nothing scares me (as a priest) more than healing a tank at just the
>> last possible moment only to find out he is holding aggro on only one or
>> two mobs.
>
> ok ...
> do you REALLY think that if you don't heal before the last possible moment
> the tank is going to :
> - live ^^
> - look for more mobs to aggro ? the tanking / healing is a win-win trade.
> Tou heal me I keep the aggro.

I am proud to know tanks I played with that trusted me so much that they
forget to look at their health bars even when I run out of mana (which
rarely happens, I also do not use many mana potions because when things
turn ugly I will usually be better of using a health potion that is on
the same cooldown, even if this sticks the mobs on me even more).

It is the biggest thrill I know of as a priest.

It also happens we stay in a party and we stay in it for the party chat
while we each go our own ways. As a priest I notice someone dropping
(several flight-points away from me) and I can't heal them and the
warriors tell me they have to get used again not having heals land on
them anymore

I consider that a job well done,
Thomas

P.S. On healing on the last possible moment, I learned the hard way when
I was new to my priest in DM and a guildy ran me through it with her
level 60 warrior. She was going so fast (and I had to stay back) that I
landed a stamina buff on her just as she was pulling. Only her quick
aggro grabbing skills kept me alive back then. And I should have know
because it happened several times to me before also (buff happy as I
tend to be)

Maybe priests shouldn't heal before the tank has several sunders on each
mob
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Catriona R wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:45:03 -0500, jes.t.er RemoveThis @hexduxhmp.org wrote:
>
>> Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM RemoveThis @totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>>> That is a bad healing tactic - yes, healing yourself makes it harder to
>>> shed aggro, but being dead means your party has no healer so they will
>>> probably all die too. *Always* keep yourself alive if at all possible.
>> The one problem I have is that I die by accident at times, I pay so
>> much attention watching *their* health bars that I lose track of mine.
>
> Same But by accident isn't as bad as deliberately not healing - that
> particular tactic is way too risky for my liking.

Well, it is by accident with me too, but I RP that it is deliberate
Just how I play my human girl based on how I think she would be in the
real world. She has entered the emerald dream after visiting WC btw some
weeks ago. I just have lost too many friend due to level differences
over the last year and atm I cannot deal with that anymore.

> I think I heard somewhere that shield causes less aggro than a heal; I
> don't know if that's accurate but when I get aggro I normally fade, if that
> doesn't work, shield myself and add a renew if I've taken more than a
> little bit of damage, only give myself a proper heal if it's really needed.

Ok. I have speced Spirit of Redemption recently and I was fortunate to
use it once. The situation was this:

Excellent tank (my friend)
Shadow priest trying to top the damage meters and brag about it later on
in the instance (should have kicked him, but letting him die proved more
fun).

I died (with half my mana :-/ )
Both shadowpriest and warrior can be saved (these were my main healing
targets during the instance)
Druid (in bear) got feared and pulled Thredd + adds just before (Shadow
priest cursing him several times because of this)
Hunter is skilled and has no aggro, he has he pet out off-tanking as I
asked him to before entering stockades

Lets assume that all have half health. Shadow priest going down faster
than Warrior of course.

We cleared one and a half of the three rooms before prox pulling Thredd
in the last room.

Who would you heal with your spirit of redemption? (I think I healed the
shadow priest on intuition, figuring the warrior would survive long
enough for it not to matter anymore (hehe, twinked just like me by the
guild))
Thomas
--
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>>> DPS classes are kind of on their own with me and I haven't (so far) put
>>> a single (priest) talent in aggro reduction from heals.
>>
>> Then you are as incompetent a healer as a warior who refuses to use a
>> board
>> when tanking. Stay shadow and tell everybody in your party beforehand.
>>
>>> I am still learning after all
>>
>> I realy, REALY hope so.
>
> Sounds like someone didn't get his heals today.

Oh, our raid's druides are fine in keeping their priests alive, thank you.
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"Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam.TakeThisOut@hccnet.nl> wrote:

>Who would you heal with your spirit of redemption? (I think I healed the
>shadow priest on intuition, figuring the warrior would survive long
>enough for it not to matter anymore (hehe, twinked just like me by the
>guild))

In such a situation, given that mana efficiency doesn't matter
during spirit of redemption (all spells have zero mana cost), I'd be
spamming Prayer of Healing and so healing everyone still alive at
the same time. Holy Nova is another possibility, though I'm not sure
if that one can be case as a Spirit since it does damage.

Dan
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"Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam RemoveThis @hccnet.nl> wrote:

>I am proud to know tanks I played with that trusted me so much that they
>forget to look at their health bars even when I run out of mana (which
>rarely happens, I also do not use many mana potions because when things
>turn ugly I will usually be better of using a health potion that is on
>the same cooldown, even if this sticks the mobs on me even more).

This is just weird thinking. If you chug a mana potion, you have
mana for more than one heal. You can chug a mana potion, heal or
shield yourself, and still have mana for a couple more heals on
others. Drinking a health potion when you are out of mana is utterly
pointless. What are you going to do, bonk them with your staff?
Drinking a health potion when you aren't out of mana is daft. You
can heal yourself instead and not blow your potion timer.

A priest, especially a priest doing PUGs, should always have mana
potions for emergencies. I'm not saying drink one every fight, far
from it, but that emergency reserve can pull a group through a
potential wipe after a bad pull, an unexpected patrol, or let you
take down a boss that would otherwise have been too tough.

>It is the biggest thrill I know of as a priest.

The biggest thrill I have had as a priest is pulling a group
successfully through a near-certain wipe situation, and the kudos
you get from the other players afterward is just a bonus. Nothing
makes me smile more than a group member commenting "Awesome
healing!"

If a group wipes, I as main healer have failed in my primary role -
to keep the group alive. It may not be *my* fault that the group
wiped, people may not blame me, but it still to me feels like a
failure. A wipe is bad for the group in many ways - it costs
everyone time (especially if a corpse run is involved) and gold
(repairs/reagents), it's bad for morale and it can mean the instance
run gets abandoned, incomplete (e.g. respawns near the start mean
you'd have to more or less start over.) Wipes are to be avoided at
almost any cost.

I don't think a priest who enjoys letting a group wipe if they make
mistakes would be welcome in any guild I've ever been part of.

Dan
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Dan wrote:
> "Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam DeleteThis @hccnet.nl> wrote:
>
>> I am proud to know tanks I played with that trusted me so much that they
>> forget to look at their health bars even when I run out of mana (which
>> rarely happens, I also do not use many mana potions because when things
>> turn ugly I will usually be better of using a health potion that is on
>> the same cooldown, even if this sticks the mobs on me even more).
>
> This is just weird thinking. If you chug a mana potion, you have
> mana for more than one heal. You can chug a mana potion, heal or
> shield yourself, and still have mana for a couple more heals on
> others. Drinking a health potion when you are out of mana is utterly
> pointless. What are you going to do, bonk them with your staff?
> Drinking a health potion when you aren't out of mana is daft. You
> can heal yourself instead and not blow your potion timer.
>
> A priest, especially a priest doing PUGs, should always have mana
> potions for emergencies. I'm not saying drink one every fight, far
> from it, but that emergency reserve can pull a group through a
> potential wipe after a bad pull, an unexpected patrol, or let you
> take down a boss that would otherwise have been too tough.

I feel better if I achieve the same thing without any potions at all!

Like I said, I rarely use mana potions because I rarely run out of mana.
I have up to five mana potions ready when I do (low level instances),
but when I need a potion it is usually to stay alive while the tank (or
some other player, maybe the one that gave me all the aggro) grabs the
aggro off me.

I rarely run out of mana because I think about each heal I do and the
heals that would result from me doing that heal.

When I run out of mana I can always wand and sometimes I sit down (don't
know if that helps).

You say I need to drink mana instead of health. Well, when I need health
the situation is hecktic and I need those extra seconds alive more than
I need my mana. This holds for every class I think. What use is mana
when you are death?

My first serious toon was an alchemist, so I could try out all potions
for free, but ended up using (and making) only health and some mana.

>> It is the biggest thrill I know of as a priest.
>
> The biggest thrill I have had as a priest is pulling a group
> successfully through a near-certain wipe situation, and the kudos
> you get from the other players afterward is just a bonus. Nothing
> makes me smile more than a group member commenting "Awesome
> healing!"

I think I leave my groups a bit shaken most of the time when this
happens. And most of the time I won't keep everybody alive. I never had
the comment 'awesome healing'. I did end up on friendslists of other
players that I consider very skilled.

> If a group wipes, I as main healer have failed in my primary role -
> to keep the group alive. It may not be *my* fault that the group
> wiped, people may not blame me, but it still to me feels like a
> failure. A wipe is bad for the group in many ways - it costs
> everyone time (especially if a corpse run is involved) and gold
> (repairs/reagents), it's bad for morale and it can mean the instance
> run gets abandoned, incomplete (e.g. respawns near the start mean
> you'd have to more or less start over.) Wipes are to be avoided at
> almost any cost.
>
> I don't think a priest who enjoys letting a group wipe if they make
> mistakes would be welcome in any guild I've ever been part of.

I enjoy letting a group wipe if I do exactly what they asked me to do
and we still wipe. When it is my strategy that wipes us it needs
reassessment.

Thomas
--
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Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>> "Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam.DeleteThis@hccnet.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> I am proud to know tanks I played with that trusted me so much that they
>>> forget to look at their health bars even when I run out of mana (which
>>> rarely happens, I also do not use many mana potions because when things
>>> turn ugly I will usually be better of using a health potion that is on
>>> the same cooldown, even if this sticks the mobs on me even more).
>> This is just weird thinking. If you chug a mana potion, you have
>> mana for more than one heal. You can chug a mana potion, heal or
>> shield yourself, and still have mana for a couple more heals on
>> others. Drinking a health potion when you are out of mana is utterly
>> pointless. What are you going to do, bonk them with your staff?
>> Drinking a health potion when you aren't out of mana is daft. You
>> can heal yourself instead and not blow your potion timer.
>>
>> A priest, especially a priest doing PUGs, should always have mana
>> potions for emergencies. I'm not saying drink one every fight, far
>> from it, but that emergency reserve can pull a group through a
>> potential wipe after a bad pull, an unexpected patrol, or let you
>> take down a boss that would otherwise have been too tough.
>
> I feel better if I achieve the same thing without any potions at all!
>
> Like I said, I rarely use mana potions because I rarely run out of mana.
> I have up to five mana potions ready when I do (low level instances),
> but when I need a potion it is usually to stay alive while the tank (or
> some other player, maybe the one that gave me all the aggro) grabs the
> aggro off me.
>
> I rarely run out of mana because I think about each heal I do and the
> heals that would result from me doing that heal.
>
> When I run out of mana I can always wand and sometimes I sit down (don't
> know if that helps).

It's been in the manual since start but it just isn't doing anything. It
might have been so in the beta, but ever since release, sitting down
does _not_ increase mana and/or health regeneration. Just forget about it.

> You say I need to drink mana instead of health. Well, when I need health
> the situation is hecktic and I need those extra seconds alive more than
> I need my mana. This holds for every class I think. What use is mana
> when you are death?

Nothing. But as a priest, having full health and 0 mana is just as
pointless.

> My first serious toon was an alchemist, so I could try out all potions
> for free, but ended up using (and making) only health and some mana.

alchemy can be a good money-maker later on, but mostly only if you also
take herbalist and get your ingredients yourself. Otherwise you might be
able to break even when you buy all in the AH.

> I think I leave my groups a bit shaken most of the time when this
> happens. And most of the time I won't keep everybody alive. I never had
> the comment 'awesome healing'. I did end up on friendslists of other
> players that I consider very skilled.

You get seldom gratulated for the healing, so you will remember when it
happens, as well as the situation where you got it. Patience, you'll one
day see it

[..]
>> I don't think a priest who enjoys letting a group wipe if they make
>> mistakes would be welcome in any guild I've ever been part of.
>
> I enjoy letting a group wipe if I do exactly what they asked me to do
> and we still wipe. When it is my strategy that wipes us it needs
> reassessment.

There's always "the plan". And then there is the person who just knows
the right thing to do when the plan isn't any longer feasible and turns
the "inevitable wipe everyone saw coming and was already writing the
last will" into a no-one died, good job all thingie that lets you sleep
that much better this night.

Plans are good. Acting correctly against a plan is sometimes far better.

CU

René
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Rene wrote:
> Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:
[snip]
>> I enjoy letting a group wipe if I do exactly what they asked me to do
>> and we still wipe. When it is my strategy that wipes us it needs
>> reassessment.
>
> There's always "the plan". And then there is the person who just knows
> the right thing to do when the plan isn't any longer feasible and turns
> the "inevitable wipe everyone saw coming and was already writing the
> last will" into a no-one died, good job all thingie that lets you sleep
> that much better this night.
>
> Plans are good. Acting correctly against a plan is sometimes far better.

I like to improvise and experiment. But when I want to do something
drastic that might go wrong I ask for permission first. What I hate is
when I am told how to play my class and I respond to that my totally and
utter obedience to whomever has the biggest mouth in the pickup group.

One case that I remember clearly was with my druid when a paladin kept
saying I didn't heal enough so after a while I went to bear telling him
to do all the healing and me to do the tanking (we had no warrior).

When I tanked the hunter made a bad pull and we got two patrols on our
back instead of one which I held almost complete aggro over in the few
seconds I lasted (challenging roar). The pally didn't land a single heal
on me and was offtanking or something as far as I could see.

I went down in seconds, the rest of the party wiped in about two times
that time and I felt absolutely good about doing the job 'I was told to'
and proving the pally with heal healing per second obsession an
incompetent healer.

We also had a mage (my RL friend) and a hunter and some other
non-healing class, probably a rogue.

Thomas
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AlphaWoolf <alpha.woolf.TakeThisOut@yourcoatsbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hunters and rogues want crits because it's a big part of their damage
> output and they can wipe aggro if need be. Warriors want crits
> because it generates more aggro and rage.

A crit generates no bonus threat. One point of damage = one point of
threat[*], so the additional damage does generate additional threat, but
there's no bonus because it's a crit.

[*] - Yeah, yeah, generally.
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"Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam RemoveThis @hccnet.nl> wrote:
>Dan wrote:
>> A priest, especially a priest doing PUGs, should always have mana
>> potions for emergencies. I'm not saying drink one every fight, far
>> from it, but that emergency reserve can pull a group through a
>> potential wipe after a bad pull, an unexpected patrol, or let you
>> take down a boss that would otherwise have been too tough.
>
>I feel better if I achieve the same thing without any potions at all!

If you can do it without needing an emergency potion, then it wasn't
an emergency. The point of having emergency mana potions is to save
the situations that you can't otherwise save.

>You say I need to drink mana instead of health.

For a priest, mana yields health. (Conversely for a warlock, health
yields mana.) A mana potion will give you enough mana to generate
4-5x more health than a health potion will give you.

>Well, when I need health
>the situation is hecktic and I need those extra seconds alive more than
>I need my mana. This holds for every class I think. What use is mana
>when you are death?

If you have mana, you can prevent yourself dying. A priest with mana
will not die unless they are taking damage faster than they can heal
themselves and if your health is going down /that/ fast, a health
potion isn't going to buy you much. When the situation is hectic and
things are beating on you, if you have mana you have other options:

Fade - instant cast, chances are will it shed at least one of the
mobs hitting on you and even if not, will make it easier for others
to take aggro off you.

Power Word: Shield - instant cast, buys you more seconds in exactly
the same way as a health potion would.

Renew - instant cast, buys you more time by countering some (most,
for a single mob) of the damage you are taking without increasing
your aggro like a big heal does.

Psychic Scream - instant cast. It's use in instances is obviously
situational - you can't use it in area where feared mobs will aggro
other mobs, but in a relatively cleared area it can save your butt
in an emergency - not only does it give you a break from being hit,
but all the party around you as well. Everyone gets a few seconds
breathing space for cooldowns to tick, energy to regen, bandaging or
whatever.

Prayer of Healing - the priest's trump card as far as group healing
goes. Heal yourself *and* the tank *and* the dpsers all at the same
time. You only need 3 party members to be taking damage for Prayer
of Healing to be more mana efficient than single-target heals, and
even if only 2 are taking damage, the ability to heal yourself
without stopping healing the tank can be more important than the
mana cost. A combination of shield followed by a prayer of healing
or two can do a lot toward turning the tide of the encounter and
preventing an impending wipe.

If there's a warlock in your group, you have another option - make
them give you a healthstone. Same effect as a health potion, without
blowing your potion timer. 900 mana from a mana potion will buy you
(and your party) a lot more health than 900 health from a heal
potion.

Dan
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Dan wrote:
[snip]
> Fade - instant cast, chances are will it shed at least one of the
> mobs hitting on you and even if not, will make it easier for others
> to take aggro off you.
>
> Power Word: Shield - instant cast, buys you more seconds in exactly
> the same way as a health potion would.
>
> Renew - instant cast, buys you more time by countering some (most,
> for a single mob) of the damage you are taking without increasing
> your aggro like a big heal does.
>
> Psychic Scream - instant cast. It's use in instances is obviously
> situational - you can't use it in area where feared mobs will aggro
> other mobs, but in a relatively cleared area it can save your butt
> in an emergency - not only does it give you a break from being hit,
> but all the party around you as well. Everyone gets a few seconds
> breathing space for cooldowns to tick, energy to regen, bandaging or
> whatever.

I would like to add Desperate Prayer. I try to use it a lot

I am not sure what I think about prayer of healing. I don't think I ever
used it or found it useful. (maybe because I let the rogues die if they
grab too greedily in the aggro bin over a longer period of time).

Basically as a low level priest I strive for parties where only the tank
and maybe some off tank (leather or better) has aggro.

As a druid I loved to cast tranquility on near death. It doesn't just
work but it also looks real cool!

Thomas
--
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All of you guys are playing the game all wrong!

Gosh!

L2P

(jk <3)
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On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:54:03 -0400, ald <103175.3500.TakeThisOut@compuserve.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 20:32:30 GMT, "frood"
><froodbuffy.TakeThisOut@STUFFGriffinsFlight.com> wrote:
>
>>But, there must be some
>>purpose for a non-tank warrior, just as there is for shadow priests and
>>feral druids. Not the most common spec, but still a valid choice of
>>playstyle.
>>
>>--
>>Wendy
>
>A bit late replying (hey, 4 days behind is *early* for me ) but
>yes, there is another purpose for a Warrior, although in instances it
>is quite similar but complimentary to the main tank. First off, as
>you've already discovered, when soloing or duoing you can play DPS,
>you may not hit as hard as a Mage or a Rogue but you sure can take
>more damage while dealing out *your* damage. The role I play in
>instances is almost always the off-tank, who's main job it is to
>protect the squishies, and only occasionally have to tank a mob, when
>we're taking on more than one major one at once.
>
>But in that regard, my Warrior is very lucky. One of my guildmates'
>main character is a Warrior (mine was my first AH mule, and is now my
>"main alt", or second-highest character), and we've always kept within
>a couple levels of each other. We often team up to take on the tougher
>quests, and almost always are in instances together (heh, the one time
>she wasn't around, an Uldamann run, didn't go *too* badly until I was
>called on to shoot-pull one of the guys in the next-to-last chamber.
>See, I forgot I was in Defensive Stance, and Shoot is only hot-keyed
>in Battle Stance. I kept creeping closer wondering why I wasn't in
>range yet. Oh, well, as one of the other group members said after the
>wipe, at least we managed to clear the room ). At 44 (she's 45
>currently, couldn't *stand* the fact that I hit 44 first so she's been
>working on it a bit ), I'm not sure I could have gotten away with
>an all-Arms build (until 42, now starting on the Fury tree) without
>her around, my main tanking skills are somewhat lacking. But that will
>work even better when we hit 60 and start on the end-game 5-mans,
>because then my Hunter will finally have someone to team up with

I'm going the DPS route with my warrior as well. I decided this just
before Blizzard lowered the player caps on the high-end dungeons.
Back when you could 10-man Strath and Scholo a DPS warrior wasn't that
uncommon a sight. Now with that opportunity gone my only chance to
DPS is solo or in 20+ raids, and then only if we've got got some
proper tanks. While I feel my spec is fairly useless simply because I
so seldom get to put it to good use, I'm sticking with it. I recently
respec'd completely out of Protection (11/40/0) and I can still tank
UBRS and below just fine if I have to, and when I get to bare my teeth
(so to speak) it's lots of fun. I'd only spec Protection if I were a
designated MT for a guild, and that's never gonna happen. Even then,
my guild's MTs are primarily Arms or Fury spec'd, I believe, and I'm
talking about tanks that farm BWL and have started into AQ40.

Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Thunderhorn,US
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