Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?)

Dan <no.spam.here.invalid> wrote:
> >recovery die fast and help the ones with mild ailments.

> Be aware then, that most rogues will vanish rather than die (flash
> powder is much cheaper than repairs) - and the moment they vanish
> they'll lose aggro and the mob that was hitting them is going to
> start hitting you

Not unless the healer is next on the list.
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"Brian Trosko" <btrosko RemoveThis @panix.com> wrote in message
news:ebiaqb$snm$1@reader2.panix.com...
> gernot almen <amiterasu RemoveThis @gmx.de> wrote:
>> This thread started with somebody teaching an other clase unasked - and
>> getting spanged for doing so.
>
> If the information that someone is giving out is factual, there's no
> reason to 'spang' him for it unless he's coming across as an arrogant
> twat.
>
> I've come across a lot of would-be tanks who don't know that they should
> be sundering, and I tell them that they probably want to look into
> using it, because it's by far the best non-reactionary threat-generator
> they have, especially if they're not prot-specced (379 threat compared to
> 363 from Shield Slam, but if they don't have shield slam the next best is
> Heroic Strike at 211). I've seen warriors who never switch stances,
> probably because they don't know what Tactical Mastery is for. Paladins
> who won't aura. That kind of thing.
>
> If you're just running around solo, that doesn't matter, but if you're
> grouped, your group can wipe or win based on how well you play your class,
> so if you're playing your class poorly, expect suggestions on how to do a
> better job. How else are you going to learn how to improve, especially
> if you're not asking for advice?

*raises hand* My warrior never switches stances. I can't figure the whole
thing out. I just got a nice one-hand sword and reasonable shield, so I can
tank a little better (rather than 2H axe), but the instructions from the
trainer don't really cover how to use the various skills. My guild is full
of hunters and paladins, so I haven't gotten much advice from them (except
how to play my rogue, but they don't have much clue there, either).

So, asking for advice here... my lvl22 (just barely) Warrior wants to know
when/how to switch stances, and in what order to use the skills.

--
Wendy
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"Thomas J. Boschloo" ...
>
> Nothing scares me (as a priest) more than healing a tank at just the
> last possible moment only to find out he is holding aggro on only one or
> two mobs.

ok ...
do you REALLY think that if you don't heal before the last possible moment
the tank is going to :
- live ^^
- look for more mobs to aggro ? the tanking / healing is a win-win trade.
Tou heal me I keep the aggro.
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:55:23 +0200, "Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam RemoveThis @hccnet.nl>
wrote:

>Dan wrote:
>[snip]
>> Now your party's in bigger trouble - you've
>> lost around 25% of your damage output /and/ your healer's being beat
>> up. Would you then not heal yourself, since you shouldn't have aggro
>> and you need to learn a lesson?
>
>As a matter of fact, I do not heal myself. I might throw myself a PW:S
>or try to fade, but healing myself only makes the situation worse for
>me. If I get aggro I run towards the tank as fast as I can (with the
>PW:S being cast on the run)
>
>I am usually the first to die in parties because of this (if the tank is
>good and the rogues are competent and don't try to steal aggro from the
>tank)

That is a bad healing tactic - yes, healing yourself makes it harder to
shed aggro, but being dead means your party has no healer so they will
probably all die too. *Always* keep yourself alive if at all possible.

>Maybe at the end of a fight I will heal the dps classes but I rather
>heal non-squishies.

It's your choice but I wouldn't wish to group with a healer who used your
tactics. When things go wrong and you just can't keep everyone alive, then
of course concentrate on the tank, but allowing your dps to die when it's
not necessary makes it a lot harder to get through a fight.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 55)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 43)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 42)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 33)
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"Shay" <shayylynn.RemoveThis@aol.com> writes:
>Rogue aside for a second, though I'd disagree...
>
>"rogues (and tanks)" ?????
>
>Why exactly would you want to "learn" a tank to get Rid of aggro?

Thomas is talking out his ass on this. I have a feeling he's the kind of
healer that only gets to work with pickup groups, because nobody will group
with him as solo healer twice.

>You're going to teach your front line to not rely on a priest to heal
>them if they're injured? You're going to have a very nervous, timid
>line shortly. It takes a lot of trust to shove yourself forward in

What you're going to have is broken groups and people moving you into the
red zone on their Karma list. Healers that let people die in 5-mans are bad
healers - there is simply no excuse for it. It's not much different in
raids either - anyone who gets an attitude lets people die on their watch
won't be invited back.

>everyone is depending on you to do, you're a liability. I'd stick to
>venting how you feel in words, not in actins, or you might find
>yourself without a steady group (you'll always have PUGs as a healer of
>course).

Indeed. This is why priests are hard to come by - the good ones get sick of
their job, and the bad ones destroy groups. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:45:03 -0500, jes.t.er RemoveThis @hexduxhmp.org wrote:

>Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM RemoveThis @totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>> That is a bad healing tactic - yes, healing yourself makes it harder to
>> shed aggro, but being dead means your party has no healer so they will
>> probably all die too. *Always* keep yourself alive if at all possible.
>
>The one problem I have is that I die by accident at times, I pay so
>much attention watching *their* health bars that I lose track of mine.

Same But by accident isn't as bad as deliberately not healing - that
particular tactic is way too risky for my liking.

I think I heard somewhere that shield causes less aggro than a heal; I
don't know if that's accurate but when I get aggro I normally fade, if that
doesn't work, shield myself and add a renew if I've taken more than a
little bit of damage, only give myself a proper heal if it's really needed.
But my health is low (only 2.5k when self-buffed, about 2k unbuffed) so I
really need to keep it topped up or I'm in deep trouble if I get aggro.
Perhaps it's less needed if I have more health but it's so hard to get a
balance between enough health, enough mana and enough mana regen (and
+healing) - currently my full healing gear is 3.8k mana, 2.1k health,
210ish spirit (adds up to 27.5 mana/5 sec inside the 5 second rule when
self-buffed with divine spirit), 22 mana/5 sec and 129 +healing... probably
needs work as a lot of it's low-40s blues and I'm 55
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 60)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 55)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 43)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 42)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 33)
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:38:58 +0200, "gernot almen" <amiterasu.DeleteThis@gmx.de>
wrote:

>That's what gives us priests bad reputation. Arrogance.
>And by the way: DPSer dead -> no demage -> longer fight -> healer oom ->
>wipe

Pretty much the same thing as the alternative: healer blows all his
mana on the idiot DPS who doesn't know how to control aggro -> wipe.
The only difference is that not healing the idiot DPS guy MIGHT teach
him how to control his aggro, which is a lot better than them
repeating the same mistake forever.
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:34:14 -0000, pv+usenet@pobox.com (PV) wrote:

>"Shay" <shayylynn DeleteThis @aol.com> writes:
>>Rogue aside for a second, though I'd disagree...
>>
>>"rogues (and tanks)" ?????
>>
>>Why exactly would you want to "learn" a tank to get Rid of aggro?
>
>Thomas is talking out his ass on this. I have a feeling he's the kind of
>healer that only gets to work with pickup groups, because nobody will group
>with him as solo healer twice.
>
>>You're going to teach your front line to not rely on a priest to heal
>>them if they're injured? You're going to have a very nervous, timid
>>line shortly. It takes a lot of trust to shove yourself forward in
>
>What you're going to have is broken groups and people moving you into the
>red zone on their Karma list. Healers that let people die in 5-mans are bad
>healers - there is simply no excuse for it. It's not much different in
>raids either - anyone who gets an attitude lets people die on their watch
>won't be invited back.

people who constantly think "ooh! priest will keep me alive... i'll
out-aggro the tank!" are complete tosssers who will not only reach the
red zone on my karma list but will also be listed on my KOS addon.

as an aside... why don't these sorts of people take food into an
instance with them? oh yes... the priest will fill my HP. but what if
there's no mage to give me water? i have to use my own expensive dew
to refill your HP bar then drink another one?

i've had this a few times... big fight, out of mana. i drink my own
morning glory dew to replenish my mana but the melee classes are still
at half HP. they then whine as to why i haven't "healed" them...
simple. i don't "heal" out of combat.

>>everyone is depending on you to do, you're a liability. I'd stick to
>>venting how you feel in words, not in actins, or you might find
>>yourself without a steady group (you'll always have PUGs as a healer of
>>course).
>
>Indeed. This is why priests are hard to come by - the good ones get sick of
>their job, and the bad ones destroy groups. *

and some of the good ones get sick of the whiney, little turds who
steal aggro from the tank then say, "why didn't you heal me?"

sheesh.
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Marshall <Marshall.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote:

> "Brian Trosko" <btrosko.TakeThisOut@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:ebib50$snm$2@reader2.panix.com...
> > Thomas J. Boschloo <nospam.TakeThisOut@hccnet.nl> wrote:
> >> gernot almen wrote:
> >
> >> > And
> >> > don't heal at the last moment. Heal when necessary.
> >
> >> Larger heals are generally more mana efficient. Best is to give
> >> everybody a full, long cast heal that hits when they only have one
> >> hitpoint left.

> Unless you are the slickest and most clairvoyant healer in the game,

Watch your attributions.
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"Brian Trosko" <btrosko DeleteThis @panix.com> wrote in message
news:ebjh5r$7i8$2@reader2.panix.com...
> Marshall <Marshall DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> "Brian Trosko" <btrosko DeleteThis @panix.com> wrote in message
>> news:ebib50$snm$2@reader2.panix.com...
>> > Thomas J. Boschloo <nospam DeleteThis @hccnet.nl> wrote:
>> >> gernot almen wrote:
>> >
>> >> > And
>> >> > don't heal at the last moment. Heal when necessary.
>> >
>> >> Larger heals are generally more mana efficient. Best is to give
>> >> everybody a full, long cast heal that hits when they only have one
>> >> hitpoint left.
>
>> Unless you are the slickest and most clairvoyant healer in the game,
>
> Watch your attributions.

Sorry Brian, my bad.
-Marshall
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:55:23 +0200, "Thomas J. Boschloo"
<nospam DeleteThis @hccnet.nl> wrote:

>
>I also don't want crits. And I think a hunter, mage or rogue shouldn't
>want that either when they are in a party. I think it is insane some
>people spec for this (unless they want to PvP rather than PvE)

Hunters and rogues want crits because it's a big part of their damage
output and they can wipe aggro if need be. Warriors want crits
because it generates more aggro and rage.

Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Thunderhorn,US
Remove your coat for email.
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On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:39:49 +0200, "Thomas J. Boschloo"
<nospam.RemoveThis@hccnet.nl> wrote:

>PV wrote:
>> "Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam.RemoveThis@hccnet.nl> writes:
>>> 1) It helps rogues learn how not to get aggro until it doesn't matter
>>> anymore (e.g. max dps and cc when a creature is trying to escape)
>>> 2) It learns rogues (and tanks) to get rid of aggro when they have it
>>
>> You, sir, are an incompetent healer. Letting a DPS class die is a great way
>> to guarantee a wipe, since you can't damage your way out of an overpull. *
>
>You can't damage your way out of an overpull in either case, so what is
>the difference? The difference is that I have enough mana and _time_ to
>heal the tank which gives the tank a chance to grab aggro again. (using
>e.g. Retaliation or Challenging Roar as a druid)
>
>Another thing is that the mages and shadow priests won't run out of mana
>by going full out and be useless anyhow. (shadow priests should conserve
>mana for healing in your scenario).
>
>And that I won't get the aggro they had stacked up by doing full DPS
>until I cannot heal all of them anymore and some start to die.
>
>If I am going to heal DPS classes I had better be told beforehand
>because I won't last very long if we do. Ever tried staying alive with
>your tank gone? Ever tried tanking without getting heals landed on you
>because your priest bought it?
>
>I am all in for healing DPS classes if asked for. But my low level
>instance experience has learned me that such parties don't last long and
>certainly don't reach the end boss. Yes, just letting players die, I
>also enjoy *wiping* because I am right. And I would do it again and
>again till they ask me for some input on how to do it better.

I think you need to be more flexible in your approach, and less
arrogant. Fact is, everyone has to be doing their job for parties to
work. The higher up you go the more crucial this gets. Tank dies?
It's a wipe. Healer dies, it's a wipe. DPS dies, it's a slower wipe.
Everybody (or a sufficiently large proportion of a raid) has to come
through to make the encounter a success. If you decide to not do your
job because others are making mistakes they're going to mark you as
the trouble-maker and not themselves. In fact, as the "monitor" of
the group, your suggestions should count the most towards correcting
problems. Don't just abandon people if they're screwing up, give them
a chance to improve.

Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Thunderhorn,US
Remove your coat for email.
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?)