Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?)

Thomas J. Boschloo ytrede sig i
<44db3f73$0$4529$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> med dette:

>ASKF wrote:
>[snip]
>> I remember a Druid who were totally thrilled when I formed a Scholo
>> group with my shammy. I did ask about his spec and when he said feral, I
>> asked if he would be willing to jump out of animal form now and then to
>> help me heal if it was needed, because then my resto build should be
>> able to keep us alive most of the way. - A shadow priest guildie joined
>> us too, so both of them was allowed to dps all the way.
>
>That must have been one happy kitty I expect he purred a lot to you
>in catform <g>

Indeed he did, especially since he could need on both druid and rogue
stuff.
--
Allan Stig Kiilerich Frederiksen
"When you try to change a mans paradigm, you must keep in mind that he
can hear you only through the filter of the paradigm he holds."
-Myron Tribus
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Simon Nejmann ytrede sig i <f3vgd21t9c7iboh0lfsui7bmj4dks3d4h3 DeleteThis @4ax.com>
med dette:

>On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:44:55 +0200, "gernot almen" <amiterasu DeleteThis @gmx.de>
>wrote:
>
>>"ASKF" <nospam DeleteThis @askf.dk> wrote in message
>>news:glgfd29rul7vejahedge5529lf031il07c@4ax.com...
>>> I did it in a little more fun way at a co-guild raid. The raid leader
>>> kept telling us who to heal, and I know most healers get offended by
>>> that after a while, so I just said that it amused me being told that
>
>>Raid healing (as in 40 people raid) is somthing compleatly different. Here
>>you NEED somebody to tell 5 priests (+dudus +pallies/shammies) who heals
>>whom and how and when, or you will fail. But thats not the job of the raid
>>leader, but of the most expirienced healer PLAYER. And the healer who
>>doesn't do as he's told (or at last tries to) will not be on our next raid.
>
>Yes, but I somehow don't think that is what ASKF was talking about...
>
>The healing leader in a raid starts out by calling stuff like: "A, B,
>& C heal that tank. D, E, & F heal that one. You others look after so
>and so" - basically laying out the general plan.
>
>On the other hand, I think that ASKF was taking about a tank getting
>low on health in the middle of combat, and the raid leader then
>yelling: "Heal tank-x NOW!!!" over teamspeak.
>Of course, I could be wrong...

You've got the point.

We'd discussed the healing strategy among the healers, so some were
using the fast heals, while others were using the large heals. This ment
that the tanks sometimes looked like they wasn't being healed enough,
although they would have full life 1-2 sec later.

>It is impossible for a leader (raid, healing or otherwise) to
>micromanage people to that degree. Mostly you, imho, just have to lay
>the basic guidelines down, and then expect your members to be
>intelligent enough to stick to it - or break away from it if the
>proverbial excrement hits the rotary cooling device.
>Eg. something unexpected happens and a mob shifts to another tank -
>then the healers better be smart enough to switch their focus along
>with the mob as well...

The raid leader shouldn't have to assign specific people, but let it be
up to the classes to figure out who's best suited for a job. All a
raidleader should do is to lay out the general tactic, and then give
notice when the tactic is changing to another step or if other sudden
changes is needed.
--
Allan Stig Kiilerich Frederiksen
"When you try to change a mans paradigm, you must keep in mind that he
can hear you only through the filter of the paradigm he holds."
-Myron Tribus
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:45:13 +0200, "Thomas J. Boschloo"
<nospam RemoveThis @hccnet.nl> wrote:

>Simon Nejmann wrote:
>[snip]
>> Sorta like the friend who can't tell that he smells - nobody tells him
>> because they don't want to seem mean, but on the other hand they also
>> all avoid him because they can't stand the way he stinks.
>
>For Taurens it doesn't matter. Everybody know they smell bad and they
>know it themselves also Yet they are the kindest and most gentil
>race in the WoW universe.
>
>"I smell bad? Oh, must have forgotten to wash my fur this week"
>
>Ever wondered why male taurens always scratch themselves during
>conversation?

They scratch themselves between bow shots at 500ft epic bosses! When
do they NOT scratch? You name it, if there's a Tauren involved
there's some scratching going on. They really should give all Taurens
some flea repellant (or make that idle animation a *tad* less often
used).

Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Thunderhorn,US
Remove your coat for email.
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Dan wrote:
[snip]
> Now your party's in bigger trouble - you've
> lost around 25% of your damage output /and/ your healer's being beat
> up. Would you then not heal yourself, since you shouldn't have aggro
> and you need to learn a lesson?

As a matter of fact, I do not heal myself. I might throw myself a PW:S
or try to fade, but healing myself only makes the situation worse for
me. If I get aggro I run towards the tank as fast as I can (with the
PW:S being cast on the run)

I am usually the first to die in parties because of this (if the tank is
good and the rogues are competent and don't try to steal aggro from the
tank)

I feel sorry for the shadow priests that keep grabbing aggro and which I
thus won't heal after some time of this taking place, who will then try
to heal themselves to no avail because there is no way the tank can grab
back all that aggro they got upon themselves (and neither can I)

Maybe at the end of a fight I will heal the dps classes but I rather
heal non-squishies.

I am a holy discipline priest btw. If I wanted to do ranged cloth dps I
would have rolled a mage.

I also don't want crits. And I think a hunter, mage or rogue shouldn't
want that either when they are in a party. I think it is insane some
people spec for this (unless they want to PvP rather than PvE)

Thomas
--
In a non-Democracy no one cares about your opinion.
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Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:

> 1) It helps rogues learn how not to get aggro until it doesn't matter
> anymore (e.g. max dps and cc when a creature is trying to escape)
> 2) It learns rogues (and tanks) to get rid of aggro when they have it

Rogue aside for a second, though I'd disagree...

"rogues (and tanks)" ?????

Why exactly would you want to "learn" a tank to get Rid of aggro?

You're going to teach your front line to not rely on a priest to heal
them if they're injured? You're going to have a very nervous, timid
line shortly. It takes a lot of trust to shove yourself forward in
melee, believing you have support when you start taking hits for the
party. IMHO, if you let your anger get in the way of doing the job
everyone is depending on you to do, you're a liability. I'd stick to
venting how you feel in words, not in actins, or you might find
yourself without a steady group (you'll always have PUGs as a healer of
course).

~Shayylynn
NE Hunter of Alexstrazsa
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Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:
> As a matter of fact, I do not heal myself. I might throw myself a PW:S
> or try to fade, but healing myself only makes the situation worse for
> me. If I get aggro I run towards the tank as fast as I can (with the
> PW:S being cast on the run)
>
> I am usually the first to die in parties because of this...

First to die in these parties where you use withholding healing as a
punitive measure for irritating you? I'd humbly submit there may be
some direct cause and effect here...

~Shayylynn
NE Hunter of Alexstrasza
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gernot almen wrote:
[snip]
>> "Oh, did you die? Sorry, didn't see it happen"
>
> So you ly, and don't even teach him as intended. He only learns that you are
> an incompetent healer for not paying attention.

Maybe he will be more careful next pull when first he dies a couple of
times. Any class that loses a lot of health points with each hit is a
bad class to heal. And that includes YOU, no matter how much dps you can
do! Just what is it you think that tanks are supposed to do?

> And
> don't heal at the last moment. Heal when necessary.

Larger heals are generally more mana efficient. Best is to give
everybody a full, long cast heal that hits when they only have one
hitpoint left.

Druids (my favorite class) do not even have fast heals like priests and
paladins do. They have to plan ahead. Spamming Regrowth is very wasteful
and will wipe a party sooner or later.

>> DPS classes are kind of on their own with me and I haven't (so far) put
>> a single (priest) talent in aggro reduction from heals.
>
> Then you are as incompetent a healer as a warior who refuses to use a board
> when tanking. Stay shadow and tell everybody in your party beforehand.
>
>> I am still learning after all
>
> I realy, REALY hope so.

Sounds like someone didn't get his heals today.

Thomas
--
In a non-Democracy no one cares about your opinion.
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jes.t.er RemoveThis @hexduxhmp.org wrote:
> Thomas J. Boschloo <nospam RemoveThis @hccnet.nl> wrote:
>> I am a holy discipline priest btw. If I wanted to do ranged cloth dps I
>> would have rolled a mage.
>
> But melting faces is *fun*

But I can do that on usenet for free

Regards,
Thomas
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jes.t.er RemoveThis @hexduxhmp.org wrote:
> The one problem I have is that I die by accident at times, I pay so
> much attention watching *their* health bars that I lose track of mine.

LOL Our priestess does that constantly. I think she knows half the
time, but she just refuses to tend to herself while she has people in
danger. It's far more precious than frustrating to us I think. It's
nice to have someone that dedicated at your side. /grin I find myself
rushing forward with a bandage occasionally though after clearing mobs
off her. I'll take that any day compared to the other extreme though.

~Shayylynn
NE Hunter of Alexstrasza
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"Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam DeleteThis @hccnet.nl> writes:
>1) It helps rogues learn how not to get aggro until it doesn't matter
>anymore (e.g. max dps and cc when a creature is trying to escape)
>2) It learns rogues (and tanks) to get rid of aggro when they have it

You, sir, are an incompetent healer. Letting a DPS class die is a great way
to guarantee a wipe, since you can't damage your way out of an overpull. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
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PV wrote:
> "Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam.RemoveThis@hccnet.nl> writes:
>> 1) It helps rogues learn how not to get aggro until it doesn't matter
>> anymore (e.g. max dps and cc when a creature is trying to escape)
>> 2) It learns rogues (and tanks) to get rid of aggro when they have it
>
> You, sir, are an incompetent healer. Letting a DPS class die is a great way
> to guarantee a wipe, since you can't damage your way out of an overpull. *

You can't damage your way out of an overpull in either case, so what is
the difference? The difference is that I have enough mana and _time_ to
heal the tank which gives the tank a chance to grab aggro again. (using
e.g. Retaliation or Challenging Roar as a druid)

Another thing is that the mages and shadow priests won't run out of mana
by going full out and be useless anyhow. (shadow priests should conserve
mana for healing in your scenario).

And that I won't get the aggro they had stacked up by doing full DPS
until I cannot heal all of them anymore and some start to die.

If I am going to heal DPS classes I had better be told beforehand
because I won't last very long if we do. Ever tried staying alive with
your tank gone? Ever tried tanking without getting heals landed on you
because your priest bought it?

I am all in for healing DPS classes if asked for. But my low level
instance experience has learned me that such parties don't last long and
certainly don't reach the end boss. Yes, just letting players die, I
also enjoy *wiping* because I am right. And I would do it again and
again till they ask me for some input on how to do it better.

In your situation Holy Nova might be called for, but just like a mage
with Arcane Explosion I can't keep that up for long.

hth,
Thomas
--
In a non-Democracy no one cares about your opinion.
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