Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?)

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:43:20 GMT, "frood"
<froodbuffy.RemoveThis@STUFFGriffinsFlight.com> wrote:

>Is there a way to tell if you are holding the aggro? Is it just that the
>mobs keep attacking you? Or is there some other indicator?

The best way is to turn on the option in the options menu 'Show target
of target'. It puts a sub-bubble under your target window showing who
your target is attacking. Its extremely useful not only for tanks,
but healers as well.

>And, when I upgrade my Sunder or other abilities, I assumed I was just
>supposed to use the highest level of ability. These posts make it sound like
>I should keep the other lower abilities available to use because they draw
>aggro.

You can't keep your old, non-upgraded abilities anyway - they're
automatically deleted when you train the new level version of the
skill.

>If this matters, my warrior uses a 2-hand axe, and I'm speccing him towards
>Arms.

Something you need to know is that you're not actually a tank unless
you have a shield. Using a 2-handed weapon or dual-wielding works
fine solo, or if someone else is going to tank while you do damage,
but a warrior without a shield just does not work as a tank, at least
past level 50.
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"drocket" <drocket.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g6lhd25e0uu1523hpqa0drj4fhh1lqdj67@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:43:20 GMT, "frood"
> <froodbuffy.DeleteThis@STUFFGriffinsFlight.com> wrote:
>
>>Is there a way to tell if you are holding the aggro? Is it just that the
>>mobs keep attacking you? Or is there some other indicator?
>
> The best way is to turn on the option in the options menu 'Show target
> of target'. It puts a sub-bubble under your target window showing who
> your target is attacking. Its extremely useful not only for tanks,
> but healers as well.
>
Got that. Hard to pay attention to everything in the middle of a fight, but
I'll get better with practice.

>>And, when I upgrade my Sunder or other abilities, I assumed I was just
>>supposed to use the highest level of ability. These posts make it sound
>>like
>>I should keep the other lower abilities available to use because they draw
>>aggro.
>
> You can't keep your old, non-upgraded abilities anyway - they're
> automatically deleted when you train the new level version of the
> skill.
>
>>If this matters, my warrior uses a 2-hand axe, and I'm speccing him
>>towards
>>Arms.
>
> Something you need to know is that you're not actually a tank unless
> you have a shield. Using a 2-handed weapon or dual-wielding works
> fine solo, or if someone else is going to tank while you do damage,
> but a warrior without a shield just does not work as a tank, at least
> past level 50.

I have a 1-hand sword (not a good one) and a shield (not bad for a
low-level). I understand the principle of a shield so healers don't have to
heal so much, but since most of my play is solo or duo with my spouse, I'm
not overly concerned yet with changing this yet. But, there must be some
purpose for a non-tank warrior, just as there is for shadow priests and
feral druids. Not the most common spec, but still a valid choice of
playstyle.

--
Wendy
>
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<BRob239.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154975225.357780.175650@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Now, as the "group leader" or as the "husband" or as a "concerned
> co-player", am I wrong? I hunt up level 60s, let's say, and ask
> permission to ask them questions about their builds, pets, etc, and
> usually find some insanely nice people. I wouldn't ever personally
> think of suddenly setting up a class on playing a party member's
> character by remote control or constant, unending suggestions.

You'll get this a lot as a warlock. People love to tell you which pet to
use, and sometimes you'll even have two other people arguing over which pet
you should use. Neither of them will bother to ask you, the warlock, for
your opinion. You really do have to just ignore these people. I get even
more heat because I'm DS-spec, and when raiding I get numerous complaints
about not having the imp buff. In order to avoid arguing with guildmates I
simply tell them that I'm DS. This is a lead-in. If they then ask what that
means or what significance it has, I flatly reply to them that people who do
not know or understand DS are not informed enough about warlocks to dictate
our tactics. That shuts them up real fast.
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

drocket wrote:

> I think, however, that druids have it the worst. At least half the
> time when you try to join a group as a druid, you get asked
> point-blank what you're spec is. If you're not pure resto, you're not
> coming.

So I'm quite happy if the people ask me about that, because I'm
feral-skilled.
When they ask about that, I don't want to go with them because they show
up that they don't know anything about the abilities of a druid and I'm
glad that I don't waste time with these poor noobs.

Actually, I don't go anywhere with random groups anymore, only with
other guild members. My experience teached me - unfortunately.
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drocket <drocket RemoveThis @hotmail.com> writes:
>On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:43:20 GMT, "frood"
><froodbuffy RemoveThis @STUFFGriffinsFlight.com> wrote:

>>Is there a way to tell if you are holding the aggro? Is it just that the
>>mobs keep attacking you? Or is there some other indicator?

>The best way is to turn on the option in the options menu 'Show target
>of target'. It puts a sub-bubble under your target window showing who
>your target is attacking. Its extremely useful not only for tanks,
>but healers as well.

Heh. I found this option a few weeks ago, and it's useful for PvP
as well - this is what happened when I was grinding in WPL for
ironweb spider silk:

I'd killed some spiders and was drinking; I was scanning around as
usual, and a horde rode near and stopped. I clicked on him to have
him selected in case I needed to attack, but kept drinking with my
back to him.

He paused, then backed up a bit, and rode off without dismounting.
I think he was thinking of attacking, but then saw I was already
targeting him and knew he was there, so he left instead.

>>And, when I upgrade my Sunder or other abilities, I assumed I was just
>>supposed to use the highest level of ability. These posts make it sound like
>>I should keep the other lower abilities available to use because they draw
>>aggro.

>You can't keep your old, non-upgraded abilities anyway - they're
>automatically deleted when you train the new level version of the
>skill.

For mages, their earlier abilities are still usable. I have macros to
throw rank 1 fireballs and frostbolts when I hold down the shift key,
which are much faster and cheaper to cast, if I need it for a faster
DoT or kite move.

---
Merlyn LeRoy
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On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:35:47 +1000, matt.DeleteThis@boggle.org (Matt McLeod)
wrote:
>
>That said, I sure am getting sick of the other hunter who keeps
>using volley against single targets in instances. The adds keep
>killing us, but nobody quite feels like they can "suggest" he
>stops doing it so at least a couple of people I know just try to
>avoid grouping with him now.

Haha, I just ran into another hunter that was doing this. It sure
looks impressive doesn't it? Then again, loooong ago, my warlock
used Rain of Fire on bosses. Difference being I did that in BFD, and
this guy was in Scholo. By the time I hit SM I knew the shadowbolt
was king. Well, except for that Firestone-assisted melee phase I went
through...

These days I (think) I know 3 classes really well, but I do hesitate
to comment on others' techniques. I can learn from their mistakes,
and quietly steal their good ideas too. If it's not getting us killed
why stir up something with someone who's paid their 15 bucks to have
fun?

Gnuthulhu, Undead Warlock
Fthagn, Undead Warrior
Rhyleya, Troll Hunter
Thunderhorn,US
Remove your coat for email.
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Matt McLeod wrote:
> That said, I sure am getting sick of the other hunter who keeps
> using volley against single targets in instances. The adds keep
> killing us, but nobody quite feels like they can "suggest" he
> stops doing it so at least a couple of people I know just try to
> avoid grouping with him now.

Ew! Now there is a fine line between out-of-the-cookie-cutter-box and
inadvisable. But some things are quite clearly off in the left field of
just plain stupid.

The only two instances I've usually found volley useful for is 1) if a
clothey is getting swarmed by a bunch of mobs, it redirects their aggro
onto me quickly 2) laying down to add a bit of dps to a group our mage
has always frozen in place and is AoEing. Compared to other options,
volley just irritates a lot more than it kills - piddly damage.

Hunter's have Far too many precision aggro management tools available
to have any excuse for sloppy pulling. Overpulls rank right up their
with bad pet control and warrior-envy in "things that make other
classes despise us". There's little excuse for any of them.

On a side note, there's been a lot of talk over guild requirements for
respec'cing. As a guild leader and a non-standard build myself, I try
to take rote wisdom with a grain of salt. I don't really care What the
traditional builds are. We evaluate people solely on their performance.
Come to think of it, I have never personally asked a member What their
build was. I just want to know specifics on what they can do, what I
can expect and what areas they won't be able to cover - especially
important if they don't fill traditional roles well like healing.

As long as I know in advance, we're good. If someone tells me their
priest doesn't heal, I make sure everyone has an adequate supply of
bandages and potions and the 'lock sees to healthstones. As long as
they can make up for the lack of healing in DPS, we're good. But I
expect to see the mobs dropping significantly faster. If they do, fine,
we need less healing anyways. I've never been averse to trading out
defensiveness for aggression. Either style works, so long as the person
is competent in what they Can do.

I'm mainly MM with just enough BM to give my pet more tankability. My
armor's ratings laughable, my stamina frail, my mana runs out swiftly.
But at 404 agility I put some breathtakingly large holes in enemies
with arrows. Most importantly though, I know my limitations. The only
time you'll see my axes out are for a wingclip or disengage. They're
just handheld agility items otherwise and I have No business being in
melee. That's my kitty's job.

And there's no issues with the guild or even PUGs on the rare occasion
I go with one. I just make it very clear. I'll be laying down a lot of
damage, but forget me for melee. If you need something pulled off you,
run AWAY from me and get to bow range if necessary and I'll yank 'em.

So, as a guild leader, I can honestly say, any build is welcome. You
likely won't even be asked what yours is. Just make sure it is
effective and you know how to play it and we won't ask any problems.
But if you're a mage and keep charging ahead with an icy enchant on a
glorified stick, or a hunter playing warrior and tying up our healer
with keeping you alive constantly, you can expect a serious talking to.
The line is when you stop being an asset and start being a gold/xp
sponge, or flat out danger, to the rest of your team.

~Shayylynn
NE Hunter of Alexstrasza
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AlphaWoolf <alpha.woolf.RemoveThis@yourcoatsbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:35:47 +1000, matt.RemoveThis@boggle.org (Matt McLeod)
> wrote:
>>
>>That said, I sure am getting sick of the other hunter who keeps
>>using volley against single targets in instances. The adds keep
>>killing us, but nobody quite feels like they can "suggest" he
>>stops doing it so at least a couple of people I know just try to
>>avoid grouping with him now.
>
> Haha, I just ran into another hunter that was doing this. It sure
> looks impressive doesn't it?

It does indeed. I suspect he'd only recently got it (this was in ZF),
and he seems to be about 13, so he probably just thought it looked
really cool. He was setting it off every time its cooldown ran out.

> Then again, loooong ago, my warlock
> used Rain of Fire on bosses. Difference being I did that in BFD, and
> this guy was in Scholo. By the time I hit SM I knew the shadowbolt
> was king. Well, except for that Firestone-assisted melee phase I went
> through...

I did this once with Blizzard in SM -- I don't run many instances --
and immediately twigged that it hadn't been a good idea, apologised,
and haven't done it again except when dealing with big piles of
non-elites where it is actually appropriate.

I think we were all hoping that the hunter would have a similar
experience.

> These days I (think) I know 3 classes really well, but I do hesitate
> to comment on others' techniques. I can learn from their mistakes,
> and quietly steal their good ideas too. If it's not getting us killed
> why stir up something with someone who's paid their 15 bucks to have
> fun?


That's pretty much my attitude, but then again I'm not doing end-game
raiding, and if I ever do it won't be in quite the serious way some
people do. I can see where the min/maxers are coming from, I just
don't find it much fun.

Matt
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ASKF wrote:
[snip]
> I remember a Druid who were totally thrilled when I formed a Scholo
> group with my shammy. I did ask about his spec and when he said feral, I
> asked if he would be willing to jump out of animal form now and then to
> help me heal if it was needed, because then my resto build should be
> able to keep us alive most of the way. - A shadow priest guildie joined
> us too, so both of them was allowed to dps all the way.

That must have been one happy kitty I expect he purred a lot to you
in catform <g>

Thomas
--
In a non-Democracy no one cares about your opinion.
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Simon Nejmann wrote:
[snip]
> Sorta like the friend who can't tell that he smells - nobody tells him
> because they don't want to seem mean, but on the other hand they also
> all avoid him because they can't stand the way he stinks.

For Taurens it doesn't matter. Everybody know they smell bad and they
know it themselves also Yet they are the kindest and most gentil
race in the WoW universe.

"I smell bad? Oh, must have forgotten to wash my fur this week"

Ever wondered why male taurens always scratch themselves during
conversation?

hehe,
Thomas
--
In a non-Democracy no one cares about your opinion.
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"Thomas J. Boschloo" <nospam RemoveThis @hccnet.nl> wrote in message
news:44db46c7$0$4528$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> >
> I would just not heal the rogue. In fact, if rogues or other dps classes
> die and they are not vital in order to avoid a wipe right then, I let
> them die. If they remain steady at a certain health level it must have
> meant they lost their aggro somehow and _then_ I heal them by bandaging
> or just the largest heal I have (if mana is not on a ration).
>
> 1) It helps rogues learn how not to get aggro until it doesn't matter
> anymore (e.g. max dps and cc when a creature is trying to escape)
> 2) It learns rogues (and tanks) to get rid of aggro when they have it
>
> This is only something I started doing as a priest and not as my druids
> yet but she would give remarks like:
>
> "Oh, did you die? Sorry, didn't see it happen"
> "Man, you must have had some aggro dying that fast! I did not notice you
> drop, sorry"
> "Sorry, I was healing the tank, but you would have been next on my list;
> honest!"
> "Hehe, you need to get rezzed again? Though luck for you today man!"
>
> It might sound arrogant (and it is). And I must admit, I *love* letting
> people die if it saves the rest of the party /plus/ some rogue learning
> about aggro management for the first time. Healing is a lot like Triage
> I think when it get challenging. Let the players who are beyond hope of
> recovery die fast and help the ones with mild ailments.
>
> Nothing scares me (as a priest) more than healing a tank at just the
> last possible moment only to find out he is holding aggro on only one or
> two mobs.
>
> What scares me a little bit is if tanks get out of my line of sight, but
> that usually happens early in a battle giving me time to find the tank
> and PW:S him or something. I usually throw lesser heals and stuff early
> on to give my +spi some benefit from itself so my mana bar is always
> regenerating, so I find out they are not in my line of sight real quick.
>
> DPS classes are kind of on their own with me and I haven't (so far) put
> a single (priest) talent in aggro reduction from heals. I am still
> learning after all and getting aggro sooner helps me learn how to avoid
> it
>
> Regards,
> Thomas
> --
> In a non-Democracy no one cares about your opinion.

Thanks for the rogue tips! I learn alot from reading this group. I do most
of my play solo or duo with my pally spouse. The tips on getting aggro off
me are helpful for when I play in groups.

--
Wendy
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frood wrote:
[snip]
> Thanks for the rogue tips! I learn alot from reading this group. I do most
> of my play solo or duo with my pally spouse. The tips on getting aggro off
> me are helpful for when I play in groups.

I must warn you that my priestest is still level 32 but I did a lot of
low level instances with my (both) level 32 druids (both sides,
different servers). But this is how I play with the experience I have
and it seems to work.

What I really love doing is e.g. the low level instances without a tank,
letting e.g. a higher level (experienced) rogue tank. Last instance
(stockades) I did was with a friend warrior and my priest and a skilled
hunter (who did no ice traps iirc) and a inexperienced druid and a trash
shadowpriest (who also played a rogue main).

I really gave my friend warrior a hard time keeping aggro and later in
the followup in the keep I even stole it from him so he would gain
tanking experience in this. He complained about himself not being able
to hold aggro but with the shadow priest (max aggro all the time) and
druid (wandering off at times and giving no thorns on the tank nor MotW
on other party members) I told him he did a really great job and that is
what matters.

I think there is a movie of a couple of mages doing mc really fast. Must
have been a thrill for the priests in that raid group!

I might even like pickup groups now that I think of it They are
nicely unpredictable. Some other players from PUGs made a real lasting
impression on me, but that is what happens on a mature server where
people level their alts.

I also learn a lot from this group btw, I love AGW!
Thomas
--
In a non-Democracy no one cares about your opinion.
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

> I would just not heal the rogue. In fact, if rogues or other dps classes
> die and they are not vital in order to avoid a wipe right then, I let
> them die.

That's what gives us priests bad reputation. Arrogance.
And by the way: DPSer dead -> no demage -> longer fight -> healer oom ->
wipe

> 1) It helps rogues learn how not to get aggro until it doesn't matter
> anymore (e.g. max dps and cc when a creature is trying to escape)
> 2) It learns rogues (and tanks) to get rid of aggro when they have it


This thread started with somebody teaching an other clase unasked - and
getting spanged for doing so.

> "Oh, did you die? Sorry, didn't see it happen"

So you ly, and don't even teach him as intended. He only learns that you are
an incompetent healer for not paying attention.

> It might sound arrogant (and it is).

Yes, indeed.

> And I must admit, I *love* letting
> people die if it saves the rest of the party

But a rouge dead out of spite doesn't. If you were chainhealing the tank or
feared to go oom otherwise, I whould acept this.

> Nothing scares me (as a priest) more than healing a tank at just the
> last possible moment only to find out he is holding aggro on only one or
> two mobs.

The mob 3 and 4 whould be dead, hade the DPSer lived a little longer. And
don't heal at the last moment. Heal when necessary.

> DPS classes are kind of on their own with me and I haven't (so far) put
> a single (priest) talent in aggro reduction from heals.

Then you are as incompetent a healer as a warior who refuses to use a board
when tanking. Stay shadow and tell everybody in your party beforehand.

> I am still learning after all

I realy, REALY hope so.
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