Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?)

<BRob239.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154975225.357780.175650@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Ok, reality check.
>
> This morning I get on with my 39.9 hunter and my wife shows up with her
> 42 warlock to help me to a quest or two to hit 40. Said hi to the only
> person on in the guild I joined last night, we talked, she said she'd
> be glad to join. About a 34 Priest, if memory serves me well. We met
> up and started killing miners and getting crystals on the side of a
> hill in goofy terrain. A Druid shows up and starts doing the same quest
> a the same time, so it gets a little confusing as to which hit is
> which, etc.
>
> Suddenly, the priest starts asking questions of the Warlock (who
> happens to be played by none other than my wife) about why this minion
> and not that, etc. Then, slowly, a she dosn't stop I realize she's
> starting to tell my wife how to play the thing -- where's your imp, why
> not a VW cause it's better, etc. etc. etc. etc. My wife, angel that she
> is, ignores it, but is upset to have somebody out of the blue start
> offering to play her character for her.
>
> I get the last crystal, the lock and the priest both died, my wife
> logged out because she had to go get a daughter registered in school.
> Now, I voiced disapproval of somebody spewing out constant advice
> without being asked, got some answer back, and promptly /ignored the
> person. In comes another wsp from her husband saying I had put the
> guild head honcho on ignore. I said I didn't care WHO it was, if a
> level 60 in Epic showed up and started pontificating about how a
> certain character SHOULD be playing his character, they're out of
> there. I promptly quit the guild.
>
> This guy and I talked, and thought we had it more or less settled, he
> told me how difficult his wife can be, but then he flared up at me
> again, so I just signed off and went to work.
>
> Now, as the "group leader" or as the "husband" or as a "concerned
> co-player", am I wrong? I hunt up level 60s, let's say, and ask
> permission to ask them questions about their builds, pets, etc, and
> usually find some insanely nice people. I wouldn't ever personally
> think of suddenly setting up a class on playing a party member's
> character by remote control or constant, unending suggestions.
>
> Anyway, I'm still bewildered and, frankly, pissed. My wife? She's in
> line over at the school.
>
The game is full of kids of all ages, most guilds have more than their fair
share of fragile sensitive types who like to treat others in a manner that
would have themselves flying in a rage.
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:09:41 -0500, jes.t.er.RemoveThis@hexduxhmp.org wrote:

>Out of my various chars, the priest seems to get the most flack in
>this regard. I think it comes down to most people not really playing
>priests as well as people getting pretty sensitive when it comes to
>healing. Well, that and 'healer' often being viewed as a second class
>citizen in a group (If I get called 'priest' one more time, I'm going
>to melt their face).

Having played a priest, I definitely know what you're talking about.
I think, however, that druids have it the worst. At least half the
time when you try to join a group as a druid, you get asked
point-blank what you're spec is. If you're not pure resto, you're not
coming. Period. At least a shadow priest can GET into a group, even
if you spend half your time being bitched at for not having the best
spec FOR THEM.
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

jes.t.er.TakeThisOut@hexduxhmp.org wrote:
> Caeryn Dryad of Whisperwind <tierrie.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>> But, if we're guildies and you're in a group or a raid with me and your
>> mistakes are causing me to die then I will be start giving you advice.
>
> What if 'their mistakes' are simply them not wanting to conform to
> all the standardized cookie cutter-ness that's out there?

This is one of the things I love about my guild. Our GM is a frost
mage. Who tries to tank. We have a priest who routinely leads the
charge. We also have a hunter who is generally acknowledged as being
the best PvP hunter on the server, so it's not all silly.

(We also aren't a raiding guild. We have arrangements with some
raiding guilds so members who want to do that can, but it's not
the primary focus.)

That said, I sure am getting sick of the other hunter who keeps
using volley against single targets in instances. The adds keep
killing us, but nobody quite feels like they can "suggest" he
stops doing it so at least a couple of people I know just try to
avoid grouping with him now.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

I think that your equipment plays just as big a role in your
effectivness as a healer, a shadow priest in all +heal gear with good
spirit will outheal a fairly average geared holy spec, when spirit tap
procs from a random SW:P kill you'll do better mana-wise than most holy
preists too.
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

drocket ytrede sig i <uitfd2pmkt4qbb3bcdvtfv7urq8da64kjc DeleteThis @4ax.com> med
dette:

>On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:09:41 -0500, jes.t.er DeleteThis @hexduxhmp.org wrote:
>
>>Out of my various chars, the priest seems to get the most flack in
>>this regard. I think it comes down to most people not really playing
>>priests as well as people getting pretty sensitive when it comes to
>>healing. Well, that and 'healer' often being viewed as a second class
>>citizen in a group (If I get called 'priest' one more time, I'm going
>>to melt their face).
>
>Having played a priest, I definitely know what you're talking about.
>I think, however, that druids have it the worst. At least half the
>time when you try to join a group as a druid, you get asked
>point-blank what you're spec is. If you're not pure resto, you're not
>coming. Period. At least a shadow priest can GET into a group, even
>if you spend half your time being bitched at for not having the best
>spec FOR THEM.

I remember a Druid who were totally thrilled when I formed a Scholo
group with my shammy. I did ask about his spec and when he said feral, I
asked if he would be willing to jump out of animal form now and then to
help me heal if it was needed, because then my resto build should be
able to keep us alive most of the way. - A shadow priest guildie joined
us too, so both of them was allowed to dps all the way.

The funny part were that I only needed help for healing a couple of
times, and most of the time I had it fairly easy, because of the priest
casting Vampiric Embrace. We also enjoyed each others company so much,
the we did Scholo three times in a row, so the ones who hadn't completed
all the quests could get it done (this was before the 5-man limit was
made, while it was hard getting a party to go there).
--
Allan Stig Kiilerich Frederiksen
"When you try to change a mans paradigm, you must keep in mind that he
can hear you only through the filter of the paradigm he holds."
-Myron Tribus
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

Caeryn Dryad of Whisperwind ytrede sig i
<1155001859.923000.128640 RemoveThis @i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> med dette:

>Giving people advice.
>
>This is a bit of a tangent but sort of on topic.
>
>I mentioned earlier that if they are in a raid and their performance is
>causing me to die or their lack of performance is causing the raid to
>fail, then I will speak up.
>
>I am an officer in my guild and I've gotten in a few mess because I
>have told certain people that they are underperforming and so forth.
>Its not even as wildly tangential as a Warlock wanting to Melee, its
>more Paladins wanting to DPS and Druids wanting to go Bear or Owl. And
>I admit they are all viable under certain circumstances, stuns from
>Paladins are great. Bear and Owl are also awesome for support roles.
>But by and large I have often come at odds with some people who want a
>more laid back approach.

If you're an officer in a raiding guild, I can only say I support your
standing. We're always asking people if they would be willing to respec
to meet the needs of our guild, and tell them that it's the ones with
the prefered specs who get selected first for the raids.

We do accept any spec for alt chars, because it's often more important
to get a feral Druid if no other Druids are avalible, than missing out
of their abillities (especialy since Evocation have become a base
skill).

The most important factor is that people can play their class well, and
utilise the special benefits of their build, however it do demand some
adaptabillity from the raidleader, because some small changes to the
normal tactic might be needed.

>I am not trying to say I'm right and they are wrong, but I feel that in
>certain situation, especially when you are part of a team you are
>expected to pull your own weight. Granted, a 5 foot person can be a
>linesman but I much much prefer my linesman to be 6 foot + and 300+
>lbs. Do what your class is best at, kinda deal.
>
>So in the OT, I would have been the jackass
>
>But I see both sides of the situation, and if the druids wanted to go
>bear in UBRS that's fine, but I will not be there with them

I've done an UBRS run with a dis/holy priest as main healer and me as
shammy as secondary. We had another priest with us, but he was only
tossing 1-2 heals during the whole raid, otherwise he were there for
DPS. The druids changed between cat and bear form, depending of the
need, and we only had one near wipe.

If you got the needed healing, it is stupid not to get the extra tanking
or dps from a feral druid, thus I'll urge you to reconsider your opinion
and give it a try now and then.
--
Allan Stig Kiilerich Frederiksen
"When you try to change a mans paradigm, you must keep in mind that he
can hear you only through the filter of the paradigm he holds."
-Myron Tribus
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

<jes.t.er.RemoveThis@hexduxhmp.org> wrote in message
news:E_mdnZMEnsmLK0rZnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> crazyfalnger <crazyflanger.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Well there wasn't a warlock in our group anyhow. I was the only person
>> who could use +shadow, and lucky for me these +shadow shoulder pads
>
> I actually try to avoid instance runs where one of the nice drops
> are considered to be "warlock items" if there is a lock in the group
> (with my priest at least). Never let it be said that I don't put
> some thought into who/what is going to get mad at me wanting a particular
> item and avoiding those people
>
>> replaced my grey ones nicely. Incase anyone hasn't realized, a shadow
>> priest can heal any 5-man instance with ease. A feral druid can also. A
>> retro pally(I know from experience) can also heal any 5-man instance,
>> and I'm sure a shammy could too. These healers just have to try a bit
>> more because they aren't as effective as their holy/resto counterparts.
>
> Yeah. Most people are just idiots, blinded to conventional wisdom
> (which is incorrect in a lot of places). For instance, look at the
> priest forum - full of stories of people who get compliments on healing
> and then go shadow at the end just to amaze the group. Personally,
> I wouldn't roll like that - but it must be pretty humorous.

My shadow priest is a terrible "healer" - I would like to claim it is role
playing but it is actually just that I can only stare at health bars for so
long before losing the will to move my fingers. I run Scholo and spend about
60% of the time in shadowform, only dropping out for boss fights and risky
groups - Strat is harder but possible depending on the group but possible
(though I wouldn't want to try a 45 minute run.)

One plea for the healer though, Hunter if you are laying a frost trap for
some wierd reason at least let us know - I very nearly lost my eyballs when
staring at the health bars last night when one went off...
--

Tixover / Stalls / Tlxover / Mum (EU Terenas)
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

"ASKF" <nospam.DeleteThis@askf.dk> wrote in message
news:glgfd29rul7vejahedge5529lf031il07c@4ax.com...
> I did it in a little more fun way at a co-guild raid. The raid leader
> kept telling us who to heal, and I know most healers get offended by
> that after a while, so I just said that it amused me being told that

Raid healing (as in 40 people raid) is somthing compleatly different. Here
you NEED somebody to tell 5 priests (+dudus +pallies/shammies) who heals
whom and how and when, or you will fail. But thats not the job of the raid
leader, but of the most expirienced healer PLAYER. And the healer who
doesn't do as he's told (or at last tries to) will not be on our next raid.
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

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 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

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 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:44:55 +0200, "gernot almen" <amiterasu.TakeThisOut@gmx.de>
wrote:

>"ASKF" <nospam.TakeThisOut@askf.dk> wrote in message
>news:glgfd29rul7vejahedge5529lf031il07c@4ax.com...
>> I did it in a little more fun way at a co-guild raid. The raid leader
>> kept telling us who to heal, and I know most healers get offended by
>> that after a while, so I just said that it amused me being told that

>Raid healing (as in 40 people raid) is somthing compleatly different. Here
>you NEED somebody to tell 5 priests (+dudus +pallies/shammies) who heals
>whom and how and when, or you will fail. But thats not the job of the raid
>leader, but of the most expirienced healer PLAYER. And the healer who
>doesn't do as he's told (or at last tries to) will not be on our next raid.

Yes, but I somehow don't think that is what ASKF was talking about...

The healing leader in a raid starts out by calling stuff like: "A, B,
& C heal that tank. D, E, & F heal that one. You others look after so
and so" - basically laying out the general plan.

On the other hand, I think that ASKF was taking about a tank getting
low on health in the middle of combat, and the raid leader then
yelling: "Heal tank-x NOW!!!" over teamspeak.
Of course, I could be wrong...


It is impossible for a leader (raid, healing or otherwise) to
micromanage people to that degree. Mostly you, imho, just have to lay
the basic guidelines down, and then expect your members to be
intelligent enough to stick to it - or break away from it if the
proverbial excrement hits the rotary cooling device.
Eg. something unexpected happens and a mob shifts to another tank -
then the healers better be smart enough to switch their focus along
with the mob as well...

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
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answering there ...

it is not all about healing !

so many people telling me how to tank please ...

if i'm not sunder*5 it is because I'm doing something else !

It is not my only way to build aggro, and not even the best way ok ?

So please let me do my job ^^

I got whispered by every player in the last PUG I did, that I should do
sunder max.

And the point was ... on every boss I was not losing aggro !

So, just learn, we, warriors, have other abilities, like the GREAT aggro
generator : revenge.
Those can not proc any time (sunder can when you have the rage for it)
So, if i focus on sunder, when i reach 5 of them what sould i do ?
sunder for nothing as the mob already has 5 of them on him ?

Thanks for not telling me how to play :p

As a truth, I do tell other people how to play, but very rarely.
Remember going to uldaman with a warlock who didn't use life tap even once
and refused to soulstone the healer/rezzer ...
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?) 

Hiho

Marypop wrote:
> answering there ...
>
> it is not all about healing !
>
> so many people telling me how to tank please ...
>
> if i'm not sunder*5 it is because I'm doing something else !
>
> It is not my only way to build aggro, and not even the best way ok ?
>
> So please let me do my job ^^
>
> I got whispered by every player in the last PUG I did, that I should do
> sunder max.

It's often used as a sign when to start ataccking.

> And the point was ... on every boss I was not losing aggro !
>
> So, just learn, we, warriors, have other abilities, like the GREAT aggro
> generator : revenge.

jup.

> Those can not proc any time (sunder can when you have the rage for it)
> So, if i focus on sunder, when i reach 5 of them what sould i do ?
> sunder for nothing as the mob already has 5 of them on him ?

actually, sunder has 2 (3) purposes, and only one of these is limited to
a stacking of 5.
Purpose 1: reduce armor of target. Only stacks to 5, for 30s. needs to
renewed after that.
Purpose 2: generate aggro. NO stacking limit! As you need to renew
anyway for purpose 1, just do it.
Purpose 3: many groups just say: after so-and-so-many sunders, you can
attack. You certainly can also have a damage-go macro you hit when ready.


Admittedly revenge is the better aggro generator if you can use it, but
sundering is not for nothing after the first 5.

HTH
Urs

--
mail: urs [dot] steiner [at] switzerland [dot] org
"The 'H' stands for horrible, right?" * Lister's Confidence
 >> Stay informed about: Welcome vs. Unwelcome Advice (?)