Unusual Races in Roguelikes

"kalikiana" <kalikiana.TakeThisOut@web.de> wrote in
news:1153357888.426411.104440@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> ... in my opinion Vampires and Werewolves for example are often merely a
shade of what they should be when they appear in a game. Maybe they are
more complex than dwarves or orcs, speaking of special features.
>
> I'd like to hear your opinions about races and what they should be like.
>

Orcs, dwarves, vampires, werewolves. Too standard for a thread about
interesting character species.

I think the only real requirements are:
The character must be mobile.
The character must have some means of manipulating / holding things.

So why not...
Monkeys
Robots
Marionettes or puppets
Squid-heads (like Cthulu junior)
Xorn
Giant lobsters
An animated swarm of insects, or coins
figments of dreams
computer programs in cyberspace

Or just take a standard fantasy model and tweak it...
cannibal elves
hello dwarves (one part hello kitty, one part dwarf)
jelly ogres
a troll hand that slowly regenerates into a complete troll as it levels up


Anyone else want in the fun?

JSwing
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kalikiana wrote:
> I'd like to hear your opinions about races and what they should be like.

>From Wiki:
"The term race distinguishes one population of humans (or non-humans)
from another. The most widely used human racial categories are based
on visible traits (especially skin color and facial features), genes,
and self-identification."

I think dwarfs, elves and trolls should really be their own species and
not a "race" of humans. Then dark elf is a race of elves.
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JSwing wrote:
> Orcs, dwarves, vampires, werewolves. Too standard for a thread about
> interesting character species.
> [...]
>
> So why not...
> Monkeys
> Robots
> Marionettes or puppets
> Squid-heads (like Cthulu junior)
> Xorn
> Giant lobsters
> An animated swarm of insects, or coins
> figments of dreams
> computer programs in cyberspace
>
> Or just take a standard fantasy model and tweak it...
> cannibal elves
> hello dwarves (one part hello kitty, one part dwarf)
> jelly ogres
> a troll hand that slowly regenerates into a complete troll as it levels up

Actually I did not want to limit suggestions in any way. It was just
the easiest comparison I had in mind at that moment.
Your ideas of monsters are already funny. But I wanted to know what
features such creates have. The 'hello dawrf' shall not only look funny
or have a weird name. He should have nine lives or build himself a
house out from his beard. Get what I mean?

> I think dwarfs, elves and trolls should really be their own species and
> not a "race" of humans. Then dark elf is a race of elves.
I'm sorry, I admit the term species fits better.
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"swarm of locusts" -- can focus on a single space for maximum
effectiveness, but is susceptible to, say, fire attacks, like villagers
with torches, so when it saw them coming it could disperse itself over
a wide area so only one of its squares would be burned away at a time.

"robot" -- spawned with a random couple of detecting devices (camera,
radar, sonar, etc.), random couple of tools (arm, welding torch,
screwdriver, laser, etc.), and random method of mobility (wheels, legs,
track).

"fire elemental" -- very effective fighter, but completely vulnerable
to a few enemies like water elementals. can't use scrolls or
spellbooks. needs fuel, not food.

"little dog" -- only one inventory slot; can't wield/wear anything;
fast; most monsters are friendly to it
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kalikiana wrote:
>
> I'd like to hear your opinions about races and what they should be like.

The Tunnels and Trolls RPG spawned a spinoff game called Monsters,
Monsters where you got to play the bad guys. That concept tickled my
fancy, it might be fun/silly to play a slime mold or similar critter
where you're trying to consume objects (and other critters) and
grow/level up into a nice big gibbering horror. Other silliness,
remember the BASIC game Snake? As you level up/grow you gain more
segments. This can be a problem if you're tail is getting attacked and
your head is in a different room. Of course, straving to death because
you entered a dead end corridor or maze would be bad.
--
TAZ
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> Other silliness, remember the BASIC game Snake? As you level
> up/grow you gain more segments. This can be a problem if your
> tail is getting attacked and your head is in a different room.

Similar to Nethack, except it's the player who's a worm.

> Of course, straving to death because
> you entered a dead end corridor or maze would be bad.

This can be solved by having double-width corridors, like MAngband.

Gamer_2k4
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> Hello,
> certainly there are certain things which get usually not implemented in
> roguelikes. And there are features which never get done well.
> Talking specifically about characters, in my opinion Vampires and
> Werewolves for example are often merely a shade of what they should be
> when they appear in a game. Maybe they are more complex than dwarves or
> orcs, speaking of special features.

> I'd like to hear your opinions about races and what they should be like.

ToME and Posband have some interesting races, like vampires (which are
hurt by light), deathmolds (which "phase door" instead of moving), and
dragons (which have altered equipment and can breath
fire/ice/whatever). The problem with having complex races is that you
need complex coding. Lots of special case code would be involved.
But, assuming no limitations...

Mudrunner/Wallcrawler - can only move through walls; can get items,
attack monsters adjacent to their wall
Mutant - instead of gaining level, adds an ability; instead of dying,
loses an ability (dies if no abilities left)

Hmm...I'm drawing a blank here. I'll post later with more ideas.

Gamer_2k4
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In article <1153383224.949493.67130 DeleteThis @p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>,
paulkp DeleteThis @mbnet.fi says...
> kalikiana wrote:
> > I'd like to hear your opinions about races and what they should be like.
>
> >From Wiki:
> "The term race distinguishes one population of humans (or non-humans)
> from another. The most widely used human racial categories are based
> on visible traits (especially skin color and facial features), genes,
> and self-identification."

Of course, the term "race" has a long history in games, even though it
is usually biologically incorrect.

> I think dwarfs, elves and trolls should really be their own species and
> not a "race" of humans. Then dark elf is a race of elves.

Half-elves are fertile. Fantasy creatured should be whatever the author
decides them to be.

--
Juho Julkunen
To reach me with email add "GT39" to the subject line.
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joe_doufu wrote:
> "swarm of locusts" -- can focus on a single space for maximum
> effectiveness, but is susceptible to, say, fire attacks, like villagers
> with torches, so when it saw them coming it could disperse itself over
> a wide area so only one of its squares would be burned away at a time.
That sounds nice. Might be a special monster because it could too
easily get frenzy and rease other monsters as well and save the player
too much work.

> "fire elemental" -- very effective fighter, but completely vulnerable
> to a few enemies like water elementals. can't use scrolls or
> spellbooks. needs fuel, not food.
Actually, elemental specialties are what should appear in my in-dev
game anyway. So I should consider complex food handling.

zircher wrote:
> The Tunnels and Trolls RPG spawned a spinoff game called Monsters,
> Monsters where you got to play the bad guys. That concept tickled my
> fancy, it might be fun/silly to play a slime mold or similar critter
> where you're trying to consume objects (and other critters) and
> grow/level up into a nice big gibbering horror. Other silliness,
> remember the BASIC game Snake? As you level up/grow you gain more
> segments. This can be a problem if you're tail is getting attacked and
> your head is in a different room. Of course, straving to death because
> you entered a dead end corridor or maze would be bad.
So to say, I wouldn't like to have a snake as a player character. But
actually I like the idea of a monster controlled by the player. [See
above as well.]

Gamer_2k4 wrote:
> ToME and Posband have some interesting races, like vampires (which are
> hurt by light), deathmolds (which "phase door" instead of moving), and
> dragons (which have altered equipment and can breath
> fire/ice/whatever). The problem with having complex races is that you
> need complex coding. Lots of special case code would be involved.
> But, assuming no limitations...
Such features are exactly the ones I was up to. I know it's more
complex than standard behaviour, but it's one of the most interesting
aspects I could imagine personally. Naturally I wanted to see if anyone
else is interested in this as well because I would actually like to
include them into a game.

> Mutant - instead of gaining level, adds an ability; instead of dying,
> loses an ability (dies if no abilities left)
I have the idea that players or monsters can grow additional body parts
like a third arm, claws or new eyes. But more while arms are able to
whield extra items I am not sure what new eyes will do, though.

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Each race was modeled to be as complex as the WoD races .
> Hell, that was fun ^^. Unfortunately they were totaly unbalanced ,
> and very hard to control plotwise (you would need to do separate
> plotsets for each, for what the hell does a Demon care if a human
> city is wiped out? )
Actually my in-dev game should start with a human/ humanoid player.
With the time undead monsters attack the player's town. And when he
tries to fight the attackers eventually the only way to survive is to
become some kind of monster. So later it's up to the player wether he
still wants to regain/ save his home or advance in some evil career.
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kalikiana wrote:
> Hello,
> certainly there are certain things which get usually not implemented in
> roguelikes. And there are features which never get done well.
> Talking specifically about characters, in my opinion Vampires and
> Werewolves for example are often merely a shade of what they should be
> when they appear in a game. Maybe they are more complex than dwarves or
> orcs, speaking of special features.

Hmmm,
Angels
Faes or Faeries
Shapeshifters
Titans
Dragons
Uniques

Cheers,
T.

>
> I'd like to hear your opinions about races and what they should be like.
 >> Stay informed about: Unusual Races in Roguelikes 

> The thing that bothers me with roguelike races is that humans end up the
> boring and neglected choice. Most of fiction with similar fantasy races
> has the premise that the vast majority of people are normal humans, and
> elves, dwavers, deep ones, half-ogres, walking fungus things and big
> bipedal lizard guys who like to eat human heads are few and far between.

That's a good point. We're so ego-centric we assume humans are average
and everyone else is strange. That happens in many games. Why not
have a roguelike that takes place in another world, or at least with
another race as the center of attention. How about a roguelike in the
Shire? Obviously there's no combat so it would be boring, but we'll use
it as an example for now. Hobbits would be the 'average' race, and
humans would be big and strong, but slow, like trolls (ironically,
they'd eat much less than the hobbits). Or maybe orcs could be the
main race. Humans would have much higher charisma, and 'human armor'
would be of really high quality. It would be interesting to see a
roguelike like that sometime.

Gamer_2k4
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kalikiana napisał(a):
> Hello,
> certainly there are certain things which get usually not implemented in
> roguelikes. And there are features which never get done well.
> Talking specifically about characters, in my opinion Vampires and
> Werewolves for example are often merely a shade of what they should be
> when they appear in a game. Maybe they are more complex than dwarves or
> orcs, speaking of special features.
>
> I'd like to hear your opinions about races and what they should be like.

yeah, the choice of races in the original GenRogue was:

1) Human
2) Noble
3) Vampire
4) Werewolf
5) Demon
6) Blood Angel

Each race was modeled to be as complex as the WoD races . Hell, that
was fun ^^. Unfortunately they were totaly unbalanced , and very hard
to control plotwise (you would need to do separate plotsets for each,
for what the hell does a Demon care if a human city is wiped out? )
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (adminATchaosforge.org) [http://chaosforge.org]
Carceri -- A prelude to GenRogue... Coming Soon
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kalikiana wrote:
> I'd like to hear your opinions about races and what they should be like.

What i've always thought is that:
1. If the creature is intelligent enough to communicate, it should be
playable.

2. Though it's likely there will be statistical overlay, there should
always be some sort of special ability (or penalty or bonus) that
differentiates playable character species. Even size can differentiate
between species, so long as size can influence movement or stealth, or
similar skills and actions. A blue dragon may be smaller then a purple
one, and thus could catch a player that's wandered into a single-wide
passage, where as the purple dragon needs a 3-wide passage to fit
through.

3. "Dwarf" and "Giant" along with "Skeleton" and "Werewolf" are nothing
more then descriptions of what that character is or looks like, and are
NOT a new, unique and specific species. I mean, in Dungeon Crawl
(Linley Henzell's) when i see a Vampire i say "What is it a Vampire of?
A Human Vampire, or is it a Kenku Vampire?" and the same happens in
Angband when i stumble into a undead vault. All these liches and
skeletons pour out, and they all look and act exactly the same. Greater
Lich of what? What was it before it became a Lich? Also, Werewolves
often have the ability to switch back to it's normal form, sometimes at
will... So you *really* need to make sure that you assign them a
species to transform back into.

4. I'm sick of all these "Half Human / Half X" species. Look at Dungeon
Crawl again... There has to be at least 5 Half Human / Half X
characters in there, but absolutely no playable Half Naga / Half Kenku
character! If you can give the player the ability to play their own
created species, it will make the game far more interesting. For
example, lets say there's a Elf and Dragon. There could be specific
rules that would come into effect, depending on what the father/mother
is, and at what fraction of bloodline (1/8th dragon for example)
abilities are lost or gained.

So using the Elf / Dragon example again, the player could create a 1/4
Dragon / 3/4 Elf character (Grandparents on father's side were both
elves; grandparents on mother's side was elf and dragon) Which wouldn't
be able to breathe anything (because the ability to breath X needs a
1/2 or more Dragon bloodline) but would be stronger then a normal elf,
and still look good enough to charm other creatures.

5. Combine points 3 and 4.

6. Constructs and "artificial" life. Assuming the roguelike allows for
perminate decapitation (or even character souls; undead/demons would
have none... it'd be special if a demon character did have it's own
soul! IE: not stolen) the player could have his arm severed and then
wear (or craft) a magical suit of armor that would recreate his arm. Or
even transfer his conciousness / soul from his current body and into a
suit of armor or golem. I know there was a Angband Varient that had a
playable character that allowed the player to steal a enemy's body,
inhabit it, and use it and then swap out to another when the going got
rough.

7. Probably more, but i can't think of anything that'd be "Unusual" for
playable character species...
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