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Bloodstar

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Since: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: 406



(Msg. 31) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:53 am
Post subject: Re: Uncrackable activation schemes ... [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>war-historical (more info?)

>> If those Russians don't learn to buy goods but only to steal we will have
>> to send some Napoleon or Adolf again on Moscow Surprised))))
>
> Lempereur sufferes some serious setbacks in Russia, IIRC, so surely it
> fits. Surprised)

LOL

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Bloodstar

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Since: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: 406



(Msg. 32) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:53 am
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> Do I need to quote you where you were stating that DRM was absolutely
> needed to prevent pirates from playing the game and that it worked ?

I have learned Russian in school so I can understand basics what those guys
are speaking.
One claims that he managed to crack the game around January 2007. Now when I
read those pages I see that they have countless problems with running that
cracked game, especially downloading new patches Smile So I really doubt that
this crack work well maybe for someone but as you know SES CAN see what
people are trying to download the patch and if they didn't sold THAT serial
number they can trace IP and simply block that IP Smile They can see that
mostly those IP's would come from mother Russia.

So yes I still claim that this method have REDUCED the piracy and this
hasn't proved to me that cracking of Distant Guns is widespread. Maybe it
can be done but it is such a pain in the butt that not many would do that.
So voila in that regard this copy protection works better than serial
number.


>> If those Russians don't learn to buy goods but only to steal we will have
>> to
>> send some Napoleon or Adolf again on Moscow Surprised))))
>
> Two guys who *lost* against Russia ...

OK, that was joke...

Regarding DRM here what one guy posted now:

Originally Posted by Lurchi

I really ask myself: Is piracy such a factor in the wargaming genre
that i need to be tortured like this?

Sadly, it appears so.

I just google'd "Silent Hunter" and "crack", and received 1,070,000 links.

It's not just wargaming software, the same thing is happening to software in
general, music, film, literature, photography, journalism, fashion ... any
kind of IP-based industry.

For the first time since Gutenburg, IP has been divorced from the physical
media which was previously used to control distribution. During this time of
transition into whatever system comes to replace it, piracy is an enormous
problem for any IP content creators. Large organizations and businesses
might be able to weather it by writing it off a big slice of sales, but for
small companies it can be a suvival-threatening challenge - just as a baby
can be killed by leeches that wouldn't threaten an adult.



Quote:
What should i say ... i would happily pay 100$ for a Jutland with the
sure knowledge that i am never locked out from playing it out of reasons
beyond my control ...

That might be true for you, but in the market in which SES sells its wares,
I think the reality is that a $100 price tag would surely scare off far more
potential customers than those with DRM concerns.



Quote:
All i can say now is: Have trust in your customers and they will come
back and buy again!

Lurchi, the DRM issue isn't about trusting customers, it's about trusting
thieves.

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Big Salad

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Since: Oct 30, 2007
Posts: 21



(Msg. 33) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:53 am
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Bloodstar wrote:

> I just google'd "Silent Hunter" and "crack", and received 1,070,000
> links.

But what's the story here?

Silent Hunter III used Starforce. Installing a crack before installing
your legitimately-bought game was the only way to prevent Starforce from
installing on your machine. It also had the advantage of giving you a
no-CD version. I would imagine a significant percentage of buyers of
this game were, at a minimum, considering getting the crack.

But by Silent Hunter IV, Ubi learned the very lesson that we are trying
to get across. They dropped Starforce, going with a much less offensive
scheme for protecting the CD. And, in whatever patch is is that I am
running now, they've officially supplied a no-CD patch.

We can't see this backed up with actual numbers. But surely the
message is that Ubisoft has decided that Nazi DRM is A BAD THING (TM)
and that worrying about your customers (e.g. an official no-CD patch) is
more important than worrying about the pirates.
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HermanH

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Since: Nov 20, 2007
Posts: 20



(Msg. 34) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:00 am
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On Jan 18, 10:41 am, "Bloodstar" <george.washing....TakeThisOut@microsoft.com>
wrote:
> Brad W has runs a very succesful software company which - amongst
> other profitable activities - publishes games via Stardock Central,
> and developed the very succesful Galactic Civilizations 1 and 2.
> None of their published titles have invasive DRM. And Stardock central
> is a smoothly running digital distribution method.
>
> Brad is generally seen as one of the better strategy game AI
> developers.
>
> Jim Rose runs SES, a software company which has 1 (one) mediocre
> strategy title out. Distant guns has one of the most invasive DRM
> possible (server chaining), which has apparently caused major issues
> for paying customers recently.
>
> Jim is generally seen as a previously succesful entrepreneur with an
> absolute dreadful attitude in communicating with his customers.
> He could not get a job at McD's serving burgers.
>
> Bloodstar is an 'amusing' regular poster in the war-historical group,
> who in the last few weeks has gone from somewhat odd to raving
> lunatic.
> With every post he seems to gain a bit more distance from this planet
> that the rest of us call home.
>
> Regards,
>
> -von Schmidt
>
> *****************************
>
> Look von Schmidt everyone is entitled on his opinion.


And he's entitled to be 'my opinion', too, because he's right on
target.
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eddysterckx

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Since: May 13, 2005
Posts: 1292



(Msg. 35) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:41 am
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On 18 jan, 20:15, "Bloodstar" <george.washing....DeleteThis@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > Jupiter ? From the nearest black hole more likely, because one can't
> > get any denser ...
>
> Well, just keep amusing me... I decided to not plonk you as you are amusing,
> so keep it up please! Surprised)))

Just keep providing a perfect target and I'l keep hitting it with the
ol' 88

> Well, I just hope that you are not evil in real life like you are trying to
> portray yourself here.

Evil ? Are you trying to say that all your posts were serious ? I
thought we were playing a game ? You know - you post something so
utterly stupid an amoeba with a lobotomy could do better and I then
insult you by showing how my dog has a better grasp of reality than
you. And looks better too.

You silly boy, come on. Everyone in here knows that IRL you're getting
paid by the anti-DRM lobby so that people who weren't convinced before
of it's daftness now *know* they want nothing of that because being
pro-DRM means being associated with the likes of that moron you play
so convincingly. I just mailed them to give you a bonus, because over
the past weeks you've outdone yourself.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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eddysterckx

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Since: May 13, 2005
Posts: 1292



(Msg. 36) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:09 pm
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On 18 jan, 20:54, "Bloodstar" <george.washing....RemoveThis@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> You on the other hand was supporter of lone wolf programmer Hubert Cater and
> owned SC1

.... and praised it in here and everywhere else whenever the
opportunity arose.

> but decided not to buy SC2 due to DRM protection. Isn't it?

Correct.

> That is not very altruistic toward Hubert Cater who also must eat, pay the
> bills etc...

There's nothing stopping him from ditching the DRM and getting my
money. His call.

> So maybe I am just more generous and understanding than you.

or maybe you haven't yet been on the receiving end of a DRM
disaster ... yet.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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Vincenzo Beretta

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Since: Jul 22, 2005
Posts: 445



(Msg. 37) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:55 pm
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> So. To recap. SES didn't get any money from these dudes - despite
> their Nazi activation scheme. And SES didn't get our money - because of
> their Nazi activation scheme.

I pirat... er... ***COPIED*** this one for a reply on the DG's forum. I
think this will make me definetly a pirate in their eyes Surprised)
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Vincenzo Beretta

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Since: Jul 22, 2005
Posts: 445



(Msg. 38) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:39 pm
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"Giftzwerg" <giftzwerg999.RemoveThis@NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:MPG.21fa739dcf5bdf8b989778@news.giganews.com...
> In article <13f90ac8-57fa-4349-83f0-a5f60cc09948
> @i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, eddysterckx.RemoveThis@hotmail.com says...
>
>> "Well, I am thinking to buy ten copies of Jutalnd for every one of
>> your that publicly say that you will not buy Jutland.
>> How about that? So we as community will reduce your damage."
>>
>> Ok, so here I go : I, Eddy, somewhat sound of body and a bit less of
>> mind, hereby publicly declare that I will under no circumstances buy
>> Jutland as long as it has server activation.
>
> Me, neither!!!
>
>> Let's see how quickly he eats his words Smile
>
> He's already over $1,000. Even the mighty Euro won't save him.

Three here. We are around $1.800 - and counting. Maybe all this talk about
how DRM help companies has some truth in it - when Mario is around.
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Ralph Hoenig

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Since: Mar 01, 2005
Posts: 160



(Msg. 39) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:24 pm
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Hi everyone.

First post by a lurker, that was/is following this threat (and was shaking
his head in disbeliev for several times)

Over on the GalCiv forum, there was a post by Brad Wardall about a study re.
copy protection and its effectiveness.

By Frogboy
Posted October 2, 2006 14:33:48
A digital copy protection company has conducted a survey that found "only"
28% of consumers avoid protected games.

Next Generation asked me what I thought of that.

You can read the whole thing over at the link below. However, this was a
survey done by a copy protection company that apparently thinks it's not bad
that more than 1 out of 4 people avoid games that are protected. That's way
higher than I ever thought it would be.

If I make a game and it has a feature that is going to drive away 1 out of 4
gamers, it's coming out.

End Qote

This is the study, Brad was refering to:

Start Qote

A digital copyright protection company has conducted a survey that
found "only" 28 percent of consumers avoid protected games, but Stardock CEO
Brad Wardell tells Next-Gen why he questions the thoroughness of the study.

Wardell is well-versed in dealing with copy protection issues.
Stardock actually chose not to incorporate copy protection technology in its
commercially and critically successful PC game, Galactic Civilizations II,
other than a simple serial number that users enter to receive updates for
the game. The developer felt that copy suppression technology often
inconveniences consumers, so it opted out of the feature. The move was
significant because of the proliferation of PC game piracy, and it appeared
to leave GCII quite vulnerable to illegal copying.

A statement outlining ECD's aforementioned study revealed the
following statistics"


"72 percent of consumers are 'not actively avoiding' buying games
that have copy protection."

".Nearly 60 percent believe that it doesn't matter whether the game
is protected."

"51 percent noted that copy suppression technology that impacts
initial download time, but does not slow down or otherwise interfere with
game play is the ideal."

"68 percent of consumers are happy with a technology that protects
games without impacting game play -- even if the solution allows a minute or
more of delay."

"69 percent stated that their PC has never been negatively affected
by copy protection technology."
"Of the 83 percent of consumers who reported actually purchasing PC
Games, 77 percent would be in favor of purchasing copyright protected games
if they were available at a reduced cost."


After poring over the ECD study results, Wardell offered a comment to
Next-Gen via e-mail. "I think [ECD's] findings are probably correct," he
said. "But there are two key things missing from the study: 1) Does the
presence of CD copy protection make someone LESS likely to purchase the
game?"

He then addressed ECD's finding that "only" 28 percent of consumers
are turned off by copyright protected games. "If more than one out of four
gamers won't buy a game because it has CD copy protection that's huge. One
could deduce then that a significant number of people are less likely to
purchase a given game if it has CD copy protection."

He then asked the question,"2) What percentage of gamers end up buying
a game because CD copy protection thwarted their piracy efforts?

"My contention: The number of people who end up buying the game due to
being thwarted by copy protection is far FAR less than the number of buyers
lost due to the presence of the copy protection.

"I am not against copy protection. I am against copy protection that
treats gamers like criminals or inconveniences them," Wardell concluded.
[For the record, Wardell wasn't insinuating ECD criminalizes or
inconveniences gamers--his comment is a generalization. - Ed.]

End qote.


This is the link to the article
//www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3910&Itemid=2


Ralph Hoenig, Germany
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Giftzwerg

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Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 728



(Msg. 40) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:24 pm
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In article <fmqcrs$vtm$03$1@news.t-online.com>, R.Hoenig-Ellenberg@t-
online.de says...

> A digital copyright protection company has conducted a survey that
> found "only" 28 percent of consumers avoid protected games, but Stardock CEO
> Brad Wardell tells Next-Gen why he questions the thoroughness of the study.

Where I work, anything that caused 28% of potential customers to avoid
our products *sight unseen* would be viewed as the actual anvil of
Satan.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"The IAAF ruled Monday that double-amputee sprinter Oscar Pistorius is
ineligible to compete in the Beijing Olympics because his prosthetic
racing legs give him a clear competitive advantage."
- New York Times
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Vincenzo Beretta

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Since: Jul 22, 2005
Posts: 445



(Msg. 41) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:54 pm
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> This is the link to the article
>
> //www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3910&Itemid=2

I wonder if there is a link between this line of reasoning and the fact that
Brad Wardell is one of the best AI programmers out there...
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Vincenzo Beretta

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Since: Jul 22, 2005
Posts: 445



(Msg. 42) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:19 pm
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> Incidentally, over at GameSquad it looks like the Italian navy has
> completely sunk the opposition, with the remnants now hoisting the
> white surrender flag or slinking away beyond the horizon - not that
> the outcome was ever in doubt in this Disaster Guns fight Smile

Interesting factoid: the Italian Navy traditionally scored her biggest
victories thanks to the actions of small groups of determined men (pun
unintended ^__-): Alexandria harbor, Suda Bay, the small units actions
during Pedestal etc. And, of course, the sinking of the Austro-Hungarian
battleship Szent István in 1918. And...

....The funniest of them all. In late 1918 Austro-Hungary was about to fold,
but of course the Italian Navy was still planning away attacks to their
fleet. The Austrians, on Oct. 31st 1918 formally gave their battleship
Viribus Unitis to the newly formed State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs - but
the Italians had an operation already underway, and they had no means to
learn about the exchange. So, during the night between Oct, 31st and Nov,
1st 1918, they blew up the Viribus Unititis in the port of Pula using human
torpedoes. The State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs thus enjoyed possession
of their new battleship for about twelve hours. According to some accounts,
an early relative of Mario was spotted aboard some minutes before the
boom...
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Bloodstar

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Since: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: 406



(Msg. 43) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:53 pm
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Giftzwerg

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Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 728



(Msg. 44) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:53 pm
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In article <fmqlhb$6sb$1@sunce.iskon.hr>,
george.washington DeleteThis @microsoft.com says...

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lissa_(1866)
>
> You may also mention this battle LOL

Uh, if you follow this link, it tells you there's no article.

Is anyone else finding this painfully emblematic of Mario's body of
evidence?

I think you want:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lissa_%281866%29



--
Giftzwerg
***
"The IAAF ruled Monday that double-amputee sprinter Oscar Pistorius is
ineligible to compete in the Beijing Olympics because his prosthetic
racing legs give him a clear competitive advantage."
- New York Times
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Bloodstar

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Since: Feb 13, 2005
Posts: 406



(Msg. 45) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:59 pm
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<eddysterckx.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3e4ab3a5-413e-4a79-b24f-8c9bd3d73c98@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On 18 jan, 10:52, "Bloodstar" <george.washing....TakeThisOut@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> Starforce was dropped because enormous pressure and many people had
>> problem
>> with that.
>
> Just for fun.
>
> Topic : StarForce
>
> me : StarForce is a problem for regular customers.
>
> Mario : Feb 2nd 2006 - in here :
>
> "Not really. I say more power to Starforce Surprised)))) Better for my
> business Surprised)))
> Now, I understand that you don't like Starforce but to put a salt on
> your wound Surprised) more and more games will come with Starforce and I like
> that Surprised))
> Who likes the pleasure of dealing with Daemon Tools, Alcohol 120 %,
> phisically disconnecting of DVD and CDROM drives and all other trouble
> just
> to make game works? Me not.
> And new versions of Stargorce are getting better and better."
>
> -
>
> I look forward to a post of you, in a couple of years or so, where you
> admit that DRM got dropped because we were *again* right all along.
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx


What I said now:

"Starforce was dropped because enormous pressure and many people had problem
with that."

I still think that Starforce was not that bad but putting it on multi
million titles cause too much problems for some users and it got bad PR.

Look at DRM as something evolving, I just made a post about that in reply to
Vinzenzo.



Mario
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