Uncontrolled region questions

Andrew wrote:
> 1) Assuming a player has adequate space at the table, is there any rule on
> how the vampires in the uncontrolled region must be laid out?

No.

> Specifically, is placing 4 uncontrolled vampires in a 2x2 grid legally the
> same thing as placing all four of them in a row? (Assuming that all the
> vampires are clearly together in the uncontrolled region)

Yes.

> 2) Is there any prohibition against rearranging the order of vampires in
> the uncontrolled region during play? I am not aware of one, but doing so
> would be detrimental to a player watching specific card in the uncontrolled
> region with the intention of playing a Brainwash.

No.
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pdb6 DeleteThis @lightlink.com wrote:
> Andrew wrote:
> > 2) Is there any prohibition against rearranging the order of vampires in
> > the uncontrolled region during play?

> Like, what kind of situation are you envisioning here where the layout
> and/or order of uncontrolled vampires are identified? Using Banishment
> or something?
>
> -Peter

Here's a situation:
Your prey influences out 2 vampires and then starts drawing from his
crypt. You want to Brainwash the latest card drawn from the crypt - not
the two he didn't bother transferring to in the first place.
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d wrote:
> Here's a situation:
> Your prey influences out 2 vampires and then starts drawing from his
> crypt. You want to Brainwash the latest card drawn from the crypt - not
> the two he didn't bother transferring to in the first place.

Yeah, the more I thought about it, the more instances I could think of
where it would make some sort of difference--banish someone, get
someone new, etc.

-Peter
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pdb6.RemoveThis@lightlink.com wrote in
news:1149507580.766466.266790@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> Andrew wrote:
>> 1) Assuming a player has adequate space at the table, is there any
>> rule on how the vampires in the uncontrolled region must be laid out?

> Why would it make a difference?
>

Beats me, but I had someone in a tournament inform me that uncontrolled
vampires must be laid out in a row.


>
> Like, what kind of situation are you envisioning here where the layout
> and/or order of uncontrolled vampires are identified? Using Banishment
> or something?
>

You already posted that you thought of some, but one that I was thinking
of was putting brainwash on a uncontrolled vampire that someone was
Governing onto and then pulling the blood off (in the hopes that the
other uncontrolled vampires were too big to govern to)

--Andrew
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Andrew wrote:
> Beats me, but I had someone in a tournament inform me that uncontrolled
> vampires must be laid out in a row.

Very strange.

> You already posted that you thought of some, but one that I was thinking
> of was putting brainwash on a uncontrolled vampire that someone was
> Governing onto and then pulling the blood off (in the hopes that the
> other uncontrolled vampires were too big to govern to)

Heh. Yeah, in retrospect, the shuffling of your uncontrolled vampires
certainly can have an effect on something. That Govern trick is also a
good one.

-Peter
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pdb6.RemoveThis@lightlink.com wrote:
> Andrew wrote:
> > Beats me, but I had someone in a tournament inform me that uncontrolled
> > vampires must be laid out in a row.
>
> Very strange.
>


That's what playing in Los Angeles will do to you. It's the smog I
tell you, the smog...

best -

chris
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librarian wrote:
> pdb6 DeleteThis @lightlink.com wrote:
> > Andrew wrote:
> > > Beats me, but I had someone in a tournament inform me that uncontrolled
> > > vampires must be laid out in a row.
> >
> > Very strange.
>
> That's what playing in Los Angeles will do to you. It's the smog I
> tell you, the smog...

Let me add that this was probably just one player's pet peeve. Andy
didn't ask a judge about this. I assume Andy didn't care enough to do
so and just humored the anal-retentive player.

In the past, I've seen players request that other players don't do odd
things with their pool or torpored vamps that could cause some
confusion to the game state but that's certainly different. Afterall, I
can't think of many ways to get confused by a face-down crypt card--no
matter where it is located.

-Robert
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LSJ wrote:

> > 2) Is there any prohibition against rearranging the order of vampires in
> > the uncontrolled region during play? I am not aware of one, but doing so
> > would be detrimental to a player watching specific card in the uncontrolled
> > region with the intention of playing a Brainwash.
>
> No.

So I can Banish a vamp into an uncontrolled region with 2 other cards
in it and then you can shuffle the order and I can try to use Gisella's
special on one of them randomly instead of the one I Banished?
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"Churchy La Femme" <lordportishead.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149711953.688319.268840@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> LSJ wrote:
>
>> > 2) Is there any prohibition against rearranging the order of vampires in
>> > the uncontrolled region during play? I am not aware of one, but doing so
>> > would be detrimental to a player watching specific card in the uncontrolled
>> > region with the intention of playing a Brainwash.
>>
>> No.
>
> So I can Banish a vamp into an uncontrolled region with 2 other cards
> in it and then you can shuffle the order and I can try to use Gisella's
> special on one of them randomly instead of the one I Banished?

I don't understand the question. Gisella's special has nothing to do
with Banishment, per se. You can always see how much blood a vampire
has on it. I believe you can also see out-of-play cards played on it
and such but perhaps LSJ will correct me if that notion's wrong.
The owner of the uncontrolled vampires can randomize all he likes, but
these things will still show and give away identity to whatever extent
they do. That is, if two different vampires each have two blood on them
or each have an out-of-play Blood Doll on them, you couldn't tell which
is which - but you could definitely tell them from vampires that have
no blood/no Blood Dolls and so forth. And you _must_ know how much blood
an uncontrolled vampire has on it in order to know how much Gisella will
spend. No, she does not get one randomly and then spend blood or let
the action fizzle if she doesn't happen to have enough blood to pay the
cost. She points to the one she wants, knowing how much blood it has
and thus how much blood it will cost her (and she could not attempt
and action that she couldn't pay for).

If the vampire you banish happens to have zero blood on it and there are
two other bloodless vampires in your prey's uncontrolled area (and
assuming all three vampires have no other cards/counters/whatever on
them to give their identity away), then it's true that your chances of
getting the one you just banished is just one in three.

Fred
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Fred Scott wrote:

> If the vampire you banish happens to have zero blood on it and there are
> two other bloodless vampires in your prey's uncontrolled area (and
> assuming all three vampires have no other cards/counters/whatever on
> them to give their identity away), then it's true that your chances of
> getting the one you just banished is just one in three.

Sorry, did not clarify, but this is what I meant. Seems rather retarded.
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Churchy La Femme wrote:
> Sorry, did not clarify, but this is what I meant. Seems rather retarded.

On one hand, it seems kinda sketchy that you can't do what you want to
the Banished vampire, yeah. But on the other hand, there are no rules
at all as to how you arrange, re-arrange, or shuffle the vampires in
your uncontrolled reigon. Yeah, most people just lay out their 4
vampires in a row and leave them there. But there is nothing preventing
anyone from moving them around every 30 seconds if they want. Or
picking up the 4 of them, shuffling them, and laying them down at
random without looking. Like, once there are counters on them, you need
to leave the counters on them (due to rules governing adding and
removing pool counters from uncontrolled vampires). But if your
vampires are without pool counters, there is nothing at all to prevent
you from picking them up and shuffling them. And I can't really imagine
a viable way to make such a rule. Like, I don't regularly shuffle my
uncontrolled vampires, but when I deal out my initial crypt, I'll
reorder the cards in some way to make remembering which ones are which
at a glance while they are face down eaiser--maybe I put them in
numerical order, or I put duplicates next to each other, or I put
matched clans next to each other or something, which strikes me as a
completely reasonable thing to do. And I can't imagine a rule that
prevents someone from shuffling their uncontrolled vampires after a
Banishment that doesn't also prevent perfectly standard crypt
organization procedures.

So if you Banish a vampire to your prey's uncontrolled reigon, and
there is no way to identify it (i.e. it doesn't have any pool counters
or attatched cards), and there are some other uncontrolled vampires,
they can freely mix them up. As there is nothing to prevent them from
doing so.

-Peter
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"Robert Goudie" <robertg DeleteThis @vtesinla.org> wrote in
news:1149710241.160122.34130@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:


> Let me add that this was probably just one player's pet peeve. Andy
> didn't ask a judge about this. I assume Andy didn't care enough to do
> so and just humored the anal-retentive player.


Bob is right, it wasn't a big deal so I humored the player.

Actually, there could have been any number of ulterior motives since the
game in question was part of the qualifer. Asserting dominance, projecting
that he knew more about the rules, having some fun with the new guy,
etcetera. That might be reading a bit much into it, but I love it when
people do that kind of stuff.

--Andrew
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In message <1149710241.160122.34130.DeleteThis@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Robert Goudie <robertg.DeleteThis@vtesinla.org> writes:
>In the past, I've seen players request that other players don't do odd
>things with their pool or torpored vamps that could cause some
>confusion to the game state but that's certainly different. Afterall, I
>can't think of many ways to get confused by a face-down crypt card--no
>matter where it is located.

Potentially, a player might think it was a contested vampire. Though
usually contesting a vampire is unusual and commented on by players, so
it's not like it's that easy.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
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