Tome and Bands

Antoine wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I haven't played TOME, but I've looked at quite a TOME few spoilers and
> character dumps recently.
>
> While I don't like the 'Zombie Deathmold Possessor' syndrome much...

There is a solution to that -- don't play those cheesy combos if you
don't want to play cheesily.
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Twisted wrote:
> Antoine wrote:
> > Hi all
> >
> > I haven't played TOME, but I've looked at quite a TOME few spoilers and
> > character dumps recently.
> >
> > While I don't like the 'Zombie Deathmold Possessor' syndrome much...
>
> There is a solution to that -- don't play those cheesy combos if you
> don't want to play cheesily.

Yes well.

You play TOME, Twisted, don't you? What features do you like from it?

A.
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Like the man says:

* more powerful offensive mage spells. Currently there are 2 worth
spit: Magic Missile and Mana Storm. The others all pale in comparison
to these two in terms of bang for buck.

* A Summoner class might be interesting. Yes, it's in principle an
easy class, but it requires a change in playing style. That said,
summoning is too much of a pain in the neck with inferior monster AI,
as in both ToME and POSBand. (Pets do a lousy job of following you.)

What I'd also like to see go the other direction is the targeting code.
ToME targeting is bad enough to interfere with game play.


camlost wrote:
> TOME certainly has a lot of interesting features, but I'm not sure any
> that come to my mind belong in Vanilla/NPP. Could you give a short list
> of the things you like?
>
> Joshua
>
> Antoine wrote:
>
> > Hi all
> >
> > I haven't played TOME, but I've looked at quite a TOME few spoilers and
> > character dumps recently.
> >
> > While I don't like the 'Zombie Deathmold Possessor' syndrome much, in
> > other respects it seems like a very good game. It has a great variety
> > of interesting items; it has a lot of spells, most of which seem useful
> > (unlike Angband where most are useless). It has some cool classes and
> > some good game mechanics.
> >
> > It would be nice to see some of these advantages transferred into other
> > bands (NPP, and ideally V).
> >
> > Anyone else agree on this?
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pete mack wrote:
> Like the man says:
>
> * more powerful offensive mage spells. Currently there are 2 worth
> spit: Magic Missile and Mana Storm. The others all pale in comparison
> to these two in terms of bang for buck.
>
> * A Summoner class might be interesting. Yes, it's in principle an
> easy class, but it requires a change in playing style. That said,
> summoning is too much of a pain in the neck with inferior monster AI,
> as in both ToME and POSBand. (Pets do a lousy job of following you.)

I have been wondering if and when friendly monsters (coaligneds, pets,
summoning) will appear in NPP. Jeff and Diego...?

A.
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pete mack wrote:
> Like the man says:
>
> * more powerful offensive mage spells. Currently there are 2 worth
> spit: Magic Missile and Mana Storm. The others all pale in comparison
> to these two in terms of bang for buck.

In Vanilla? You forget lightning bolt and rend soul. First always
beams, second is extremely useful against constructs (vortices,
golems...) and hounds(!)...
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TOME certainly has a lot of interesting features, but I'm not sure any
that come to my mind belong in Vanilla/NPP. Could you give a short list
of the things you like?

Joshua

Antoine wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I haven't played TOME, but I've looked at quite a TOME few spoilers and
> character dumps recently.
>
> While I don't like the 'Zombie Deathmold Possessor' syndrome much, in
> other respects it seems like a very good game. It has a great variety
> of interesting items; it has a lot of spells, most of which seem useful
> (unlike Angband where most are useless). It has some cool classes and
> some good game mechanics.
>
> It would be nice to see some of these advantages transferred into other
> bands (NPP, and ideally V).
>
> Anyone else agree on this?
>
> A.
>
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Antoine wrote:

>
> While I don't like the 'Zombie Deathmold Possessor' syndrome much,

A what-a-what now? Someone explain this to me, please.
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Patashu wrote:
> Antoine wrote:
>
> >
> > While I don't like the 'Zombie Deathmold Possessor' syndrome much,
>
> A what-a-what now? Someone explain this to me, please.

It's a cheesy, overpowered character in ToME. One of many.
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pete mack wrote:
> Like the man says:
>
> * more powerful offensive mage spells. Currently there are 2 worth
> spit: Magic Missile and Mana Storm. The others all pale in comparison
> to these two in terms of bang for buck.

I don't play mages myself, but I was under the impression that ToME mages used
only Mana Thrust until well into the endgame. I disagree with Antoine's "most
of [ToME's spells] seem useful." Maybe I just haven't looked at the ladder
carefully enough.
I always favor utility spells over damage-dealing when I play magicians, partly
because, as you say, damage spells aren't very damaging.

A higher chance of side effects, like beaming for bolt spells, would make it
more worth using some. The curse-destroying effect of OoD is one such side
effect that makes priests so much more appealing.

> * A Summoner class might be interesting. Yes, it's in principle an
> easy class, but it requires a change in playing style. That said,
> summoning is too much of a pain in the neck with inferior monster AI,
> as in both ToME and POSBand. (Pets do a lousy job of following you.)
>
> What I'd also like to see go the other direction is the targeting code.
> ToME targeting is bad enough to interfere with game play.

What do you think about the pet AI in Heng? The authors seem to have put a lot
of thought into it.

I do agree that NPP/V(?) could use better friendly monster code. My favorite
part of ToME, though, is the power-gamer aspect. I think it would be totally
out of place in NPP to have an alchemist class, but it works with the HP
inflation in ToME. And I love running the older versions where you can equip an
Arrow (+3 attacks).

--Rick
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camlost schrieb:

> Hmmm... it's not player side, but it might be good. Levelled monsters. I'm
> pretty sure Heng/Entro and TOME have levelled monsters. That might make it a
> little less cheesy to kill orcs for their drops at 3650'.

Heng has leveled monsters, but those who can, need to collect
experience to actualy level. So no "ultra orc pit" in Heng. However, if
you let this dragon fight some other good monster long enough it might
level into the fitting wyrm. So most of the time you won't notice the
leveled monster effect in Heng.

btw, I think Heng or now Entro is the perfect variant for someone who
wants Vanilla+X
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Hmmm... it's not player side, but it might be good. Levelled monsters. I'm
pretty sure Heng/Entro and TOME have levelled monsters. That might make it a
little less cheesy to kill orcs for their drops at 3650'. Of course, how to
balance that might be hard, but could be good. Came to mind wrt the discussion
about leaving uniques alive to allow their followers to surround Morgoth and
prevent him from summoning.

Joshua

On 2006-06-26 23:05:14, camlost <joshua.middendorf.DeleteThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> TOME certainly has a lot of interesting features, but I'm not sure any
> that come to my mind belong in Vanilla/NPP. Could you give a short list
> of the things you like?
>
> Joshua
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On 2006-06-27 22:06:22, camlost <einstein4pres DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hmmm... it's not player side, but it might be good. Levelled monsters. I'm
> pretty sure Heng/Entro and TOME have levelled monsters. That might make it a
> little less cheesy to kill orcs for their drops at 3650'. Of course, how to
> balance that might be hard, but could be good. Came to mind wrt the discussion
> about leaving uniques alive to allow their followers to surround Morgoth and
> prevent him from summoning.
>
> Joshua
>

Not sure that would work well for uniques. Some logical part of me finds it
offensive, the possibility of encountering Bolg with 3000 HP and +25 speed at
dlvl 99, and then if you go back to dlvl 10, he's back to 300HP. Some some
vampire drain 30+ levels off him?

I don't think Entro/Heng has levelled monsters. There's just a normal
distribution on the HP and speed of all monsters.

Personally, I don't think there's much need for levelled monsters. If the
non-uniques native to 4500' aren't challenging enough, one could always import
Cyberdemons or Sky Drakes or Great Unclean Ones or whatever. Besides, removing
all "easy" monsters on a level tends to discourage aggressive play... what's the
point of diving to 2000' if the Orcs there are as tough as Storm Trolls?

The biggest feature that I liked from ToME (and Sangband) is that it's
skill-based, which means you're really gaining power at every single level-up.
It's somewhat unsatisfying to me to have just a couple extra max HP in a single
level-up, with skill bonus only every 10th level. The Heng/Entro method of
giving bonus Stats is another possible way of rewarding level-ups.
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> Heng has leveled monsters, but those who can, need to collect
> experience to actualy level. So no "ultra orc pit" in Heng. However, if
> you let this dragon fight some other good monster long enough it might
> level into the fitting wyrm. So most of the time you won't notice the
> leveled monster effect in Heng.

Those aren't "leveled" monsters, they're "evolved" monsters (or perhaps someone
else would like to argue "intelligently designed" monsters).
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