Time for Superhero Creation

Wayne Shaw <shaw.TakeThisOut@caprica.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 02:09:06 GMT, rgormannospam.TakeThisOut@telusplanet.net (David
> >
> >What I notice about it is that MnM is the only supers game where
> >I can't look at a character and instantly know whether he's
> >kickass or a putz.
> >

> Actually, it's not that hard; look at his offensive power ranks, his
> defensive power ranks, and his base attack and base defense values.
> It's not that hard to eyeball, once you know what's important in
> combat.

Only for combat oriented characters. The thing I've noticed about
MnM is that the difference between kickass and putz is highly
dependent on the situation and opponent. The game is pretty
well balanced, so in general, to excel at one thing (melee for
example) usually leaves weakness in another (mental combat say)

One of the features of the system is that a character will
generally only be able to attack well on one or two of four
vectors --melee, range, mental, special (drain, blind, paralyze,
etc) and defend on two or three save types (damage, reflex, will,
fortitude).

The down side is that for highly optimized characters, this
makes the game a little like a more complex version of rock,
paper, scissors. A mentally protected power house (MnM for
brick) is a draw against other power houses and kicks a mentalist's
ass, but would get destroyed by invisible ninja guy or captain
bow-and-arrow with a quiver full of trick arrow.

Mark.
 >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation 

>I'm really looking for ball-park figures. Mostly the major systems-
>Hero, M&M, Marvel, SAS, etc.

My first ever Hero superhero took most of an afternoon when I should have been
studying, but considering no one (including the person helping me write Kiai)
knew anything about the game ....

Nowdays, I can do stats for a reasonably complex character in an hour or two.
VPP users take longer, simple iconics less.

Leah
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On 01 May 2004 02:18:22 GMT, llwatts DeleteThis @aol.com.nospam (LLWatts) wrote:

>>I'm really looking for ball-park figures. Mostly the major systems-
>>Hero, M&M, Marvel, SAS, etc.
>
>My first ever Hero superhero took most of an afternoon when I should have been
>studying, but considering no one (including the person helping me write Kiai)
>knew anything about the game ....
>
>Nowdays, I can do stats for a reasonably complex character in an hour or two.
>VPP users take longer, simple iconics less.

Strange. I usually find VPP characters take _less_ up front time, as
they aren't likely to have as many detailed powers, since the VPP
covers several.
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On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 18:51:34 -0000, Mark Haslam <mshaslam.TakeThisOut@drizzle.com>
wrote:

>Wayne Shaw <shaw.TakeThisOut@caprica.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 02:09:06 GMT, rgormannospam.TakeThisOut@telusplanet.net (David
>> >
>> >What I notice about it is that MnM is the only supers game where
>> >I can't look at a character and instantly know whether he's
>> >kickass or a putz.
>> >
>
>> Actually, it's not that hard; look at his offensive power ranks, his
>> defensive power ranks, and his base attack and base defense values.
>> It's not that hard to eyeball, once you know what's important in
>> combat.
>
>Only for combat oriented characters. The thing I've noticed about

When I see the word "kickass" strangely enough I tend to assume combat
is what's being discussed.

Past that, there's only a couple other issues, and most of those are
primarily skill controlled and not much harder to determine.

>One of the features of the system is that a character will
>generally only be able to attack well on one or two of four
>vectors --melee, range, mental, special (drain, blind, paralyze,
>etc) and defend on two or three save types (damage, reflex, will,
>fortitude).

Actually, I see no reason it'll be hard to attack on three if you
want. The only difference is on the basic attribute contribution, and
those are cheap.

>
>The down side is that for highly optimized characters, this
>makes the game a little like a more complex version of rock,
>paper, scissors. A mentally protected power house (MnM for
>brick) is a draw against other power houses and kicks a mentalist's
>ass, but would get destroyed by invisible ninja guy or captain
>bow-and-arrow with a quiver full of trick arrow.

One of the things I did notice was that ignoring mental defenses is
far more painful in MnM than in some games; it reminds me of MEGS in
that respect.
 >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation 

On Sat, 01 May 2004 17:58:11 GMT, Wayne Shaw <shaw.DeleteThis@caprica.com> wrote:

>On 01 May 2004 02:18:22 GMT, llwatts.DeleteThis@aol.com.nospam (LLWatts) wrote:
>
>>>I'm really looking for ball-park figures. Mostly the major systems-
>>>Hero, M&M, Marvel, SAS, etc.
>>
>>My first ever Hero superhero took most of an afternoon when I should have been
>>studying, but considering no one (including the person helping me write Kiai)
>>knew anything about the game ....
>>
>>Nowdays, I can do stats for a reasonably complex character in an hour or two.
>>VPP users take longer, simple iconics less.
>
>Strange. I usually find VPP characters take _less_ up front time, as
>they aren't likely to have as many detailed powers, since the VPP
>covers several.

If you don't do the work on the VPP in advance, you'll be doing it in
play.
 >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation 

David Johnston wrote:
> On Sat, 01 May 2004 17:58:11 GMT, Wayne Shaw <shaw.TakeThisOut@caprica.com> wrote:

>>Strange. I usually find VPP characters take _less_ up front time, as
>>they aren't likely to have as many detailed powers, since the VPP
>>covers several.
>
> If you don't do the work on the VPP in advance, you'll be doing it in
> play.

Not necessarily...

1 - You can do it between sessions, or even in "dead time" during sessions.
This is still "in advance" in some sense, but it's not "up front time" --
doing a VPP can let you distribute creation of powers over a long time
after character creation.

2 - In some cases, when it's obvious that the PC should have the power to do
X with their pool, and there's not a combat or similar thing going on, many
groups will simply hand-wave it. E.g.:

Player: "We can't read the inscription? I'll use my 20-point "minor
magic" power pool to do a light spell."

GM: "Okay, you do that. The inscription says ..."

--
ZZzz |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net>
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
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On Sat, 01 May 2004 19:36:33 GMT, rgormannospam.DeleteThis@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>On Sat, 01 May 2004 17:58:11 GMT, Wayne Shaw <shaw.DeleteThis@caprica.com> wrote:
>
>>On 01 May 2004 02:18:22 GMT, llwatts.DeleteThis@aol.com.nospam (LLWatts) wrote:
>>
>>>>I'm really looking for ball-park figures. Mostly the major systems-
>>>>Hero, M&M, Marvel, SAS, etc.
>>>
>>>My first ever Hero superhero took most of an afternoon when I should have been
>>>studying, but considering no one (including the person helping me write Kiai)
>>>knew anything about the game ....
>>>
>>>Nowdays, I can do stats for a reasonably complex character in an hour or two.
>>>VPP users take longer, simple iconics less.
>>
>>Strange. I usually find VPP characters take _less_ up front time, as
>>they aren't likely to have as many detailed powers, since the VPP
>>covers several.
>
>If you don't do the work on the VPP in advance, you'll be doing it in
>play.
>

I've found that to get the value out of a VPP that's mostly when I
need to do it anyway.
 >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation 

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 00:59:29 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier DeleteThis @cavtel.net>
wrote:

>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:45:34 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier DeleteThis @cavtel.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>That said, the game really isn't aimed at the "a point of X must be
>>>of equal worth to a point of Y" crowd.
>>>Part of why I like it.
>>>Point based games try to maintain that illusion, but it's too easy
>>>to break.
>>
>>
>> On the other hand when some attacks are no brainers and some powers
>> give you sufficiently much more than others, I can't call that any
>> sort of real mechanical game balance.
>
>I'm not aware of a game where that isn't the case.

Not to the degree of the two I'm thinking of.
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Wayne Shaw wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 00:59:29 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier DeleteThis @cavtel.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Wayne Shaw wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:45:34 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier DeleteThis @cavtel.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>That said, the game really isn't aimed at the "a point of X must be
>>>>of equal worth to a point of Y" crowd.
>>>>Part of why I like it.
>>>>Point based games try to maintain that illusion, but it's too easy
>>>>to break.
>>>
>>>
>>>On the other hand when some attacks are no brainers and some powers
>>>give you sufficiently much more than others, I can't call that any
>>>sort of real mechanical game balance.
>>
>>I'm not aware of a game where that isn't the case.
>
>
> Not to the degree of the two I'm thinking of.

I'd say they're just less obvious in other games.

But back to Marvel Saga:
Sure Claws aren't as versatile as Fire Control, but you _know_ that
when you pick it. You're buying to concept, not to some arbitrary
and artificial 15 x = 15 y.
Also notice that the versatile and/or "unbalanced" powers usually
link to less physical stats.
A character who is a bruiser without his powers doesn't gain as much
as someone who'd be toast without them.
There's some nice balance there.
 >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation 

>>VPP users take longer, simple iconics less.
>
>Strange. I usually find VPP characters take _less_ up front time, as
>they aren't likely to have as many detailed powers, since the VPP
>covers several.

I'd rather work out at least some of the VPP powers in advance. If nothing
else, it's something to show the GM so we're on the same page on just what the
VPP can do.

Leah
 >> Stay informed about: Time for Superhero Creation 

On Tue, 04 May 2004 00:45:17 -0400, Sorcier <sNoErMcOier.TakeThisOut@cavtel.net>
wrote:

>>>>On the other hand when some attacks are no brainers and some powers
>>>>give you sufficiently much more than others, I can't call that any
>>>>sort of real mechanical game balance.
>>>
>>>I'm not aware of a game where that isn't the case.
>>
>>
>> Not to the degree of the two I'm thinking of.
>
>I'd say they're just less obvious in other games.
>
>But back to Marvel Saga:
>Sure Claws aren't as versatile as Fire Control, but you _know_ that
>when you pick it. You're buying to concept, not to some arbitrary
>and artificial 15 x = 15 y.
>Also notice that the versatile and/or "unbalanced" powers usually
>link to less physical stats.
>A character who is a bruiser without his powers doesn't gain as much
>as someone who'd be toast without them.
>There's some nice balance there.

However when you have powers that yield the equivelent of two
attributes for one card set, or stunts where a single, not difficult
success will put someone out for the whole fight, I think they're in a
far different class than the rest of the system, or even the exploits
found in most other games.
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