Time and Tides

On 25 Aug 2006 10:46:57 -0700, "stanmann" <stanmann.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Faeandar wrote:
>> On 24 Aug 2006 20:10:47 -0700, "stanmann" <stanmann.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Faeandar wrote:
>> >> True enough. Most raiding clerics are just one in a line of 20
>> >> CH'ers. maybe you are lucky and get the fast heal job, but otherwise
>> >> it's just monkey the CH hot key and hope you don;t get AE'd.
>> >>
>> >
>> >If your raid is 40% clerics, you are likely in way over your head, and
>> >should be trying easier content.
>> >
>> >StanMann
>>
>>
>> I've heard stories of mobs that will kill a tank in less than 1
>> second, so a 10 CH rotation isn;t enough. So they line up 20 and do
>> it every .5 seconds. Could be the mob, could be the raid. Either
>> way, keep the MT alive and the other 59% that is DPS has all the time
>> in the world really.
>
>
>I've heard those stories too, and when I encoutered those mobs, I and
>the team I was with found that a 5 healer rotation with a druid
>patching was more than adequate ... With a properly geared tank.
>
>without a properly geared tank, you are doing what is known as zerging,
>and you might as well go home. Further, 20 clerics in a .5 rot, is
>dodgy at best, and you will run into timing issues, and you don't have
>all the time in the world because there's no such thing as an infinite
>mana pool.


At 400 per cast a cleric can cast quite a few of these with decent
mana regen. And by decent I mean KEI or better and 3+ item regen,
that's it. Throw in a bard and it's a loooong time that CH can be
cast. So if you have 59% DPS the cleric chain should be able to hold
off The Reaper.

Of course there are issues to work out but I leave those to the raid,
not discuss them here. I figure others understand that too. I've
never personally been on one like that, though I have been in a 10
cleric CH rot. Boring but hey, that's raiding I guess. Must be why I
avoid it....

~F
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In article <DrmdnejzmIcUGnPZnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d RemoveThis @dejazzd.com>,
Lance Berg <emporer RemoveThis @dejazzd.com> wrote:
>>
>Nope, honestly there are at least 4 stuns, each on their own timer.

Ok, I asked a friend about this and she explained to me that after
level 46 a cleric gets 5 stuns. Four of these are sort of paired, that
is, there are two pairs on the each of two timers ( so you can only use
one of the pair) and one that's a sort of targeted AOE stun she never
uses because all it does is break mezzes and aggro uninvolved mobs
and set off traps and otherwise get her killed. The 3 or 4 stuns from level
46 and before don't seem to be linked to themselves or the later ones but
she hasn't loaded them in years because she decided that if the mobs
resist her level 68 spells 80% of the time there's no point in casting
something from when she was still chasing giant wasps through the Faydark.

In fact, she told me that the only spells she casts on mobs any
more are heals when she gets the wrong target and mark of the blameless
when she gets tired of seeing "Fred is burned!". She does admit to
trying to bash casters to interrupt them...

I wonder if it's a sort of self-selection error, I mean,
people who want to bash and stun mobs and hit them with stuff would tend
to start paladins rather than clerics... So it's not that clerics
don't do anything but heal and buff but rather that people who want to
do other things become, well, other things...
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Faeandar wrote:

> I've heard stories of mobs that will kill a tank in less than 1
> second, so a 10 CH rotation isn;t enough. So they line up 20 and do
> it every .5 seconds. Could be the mob, could be the raid. Either
> way, keep the MT alive and the other 59% that is DPS has all the time
> in the world really.

Wow you have some odd ideas about raiding. These days, anything with
the DPS you describe above certainly doesn't exist in the way you
describe it, because virtually every raid since GoD onwards has
something else killing your DPS like AE's, trash, traps etc.

I can't think of any single raid team in the game that fields 20
clerics, not even during PoP and the days of 72 and sometimes 120 person
raids did raid teams have to field 20 clerics.

--
Tony Evans
Saving trees and wasting electrons since 1993
blog -> http://perception-is-truth.blogspot.com/
[ anything below this line wasn't written by me ]
 >> Stay informed about: Time and Tides 

Lance Berg <emporer RemoveThis @dejazzd.com> writes:
> This might be worth doing for me. Is it really minutes? 110 is only
> 11 seconds, so at most this macro eats 44 seconds (plus another 4 or so
> in mysteriously wasted time, I guess).

Ah, oops, my error; I fumbled the factor of ten on /pause. (/blush)

> Also, what actually locks up while a macro is running, just other
> macros, or all hotkeys? How about autoattack using the actual attack
> key? How about the action window? I wouldn't mind losing the socials,
> if thats all there is to it, I primarly use them for assist and for
> calling for assist, both of which I can do by typing a fairly quick line
> /assist or /g tanking %t... and neither of which is needed when soloing
> anyway.

It only ties up macros, i.e. socials. Hotkeys that are direct copies
of abilities or spells or items still work, I believe. But losing my
socials is a much bigger deal for me. Maybe it's because I'm a
programmer by trade, but I tend to use socials a lot more. For
example, even my "feign death" hotkey is not just a copy of the
ability key; it's a social that does /attack off, /doability FD, /loc.
And my "Mend" hotkey (heal self 25%) is a social that includes /time
so I'll know when it's going to reset.

Sure, in a pinch I can click on the ability keys directly, but in that
same pinch I'm likely to need the abilities suddenly, and my reflexes
are to type the number keys instead of sending the mouse to the ability
window. (I do keep the ability window visible, but not so much as a
way to invoke the abilities; rather it's so I can see when the abilities
have reset, since the social hotkeys don't show me that.)

Still, that factor of 10 is enough to convince me that a BW5 macro could
have a place in my repertoire. (Or maybe a BW4 that concludes with a
/vplay to let me know when it's time to hit it again.)

-- Don.

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Don Woods wrote:


> It only ties up macros, i.e. socials. Hotkeys that are direct copies
> of abilities or spells or items still work, I believe. But losing my
> socials is a much bigger deal for me. Maybe it's because I'm a
> programmer by trade, but I tend to use socials a lot more. For
> example, even my "feign death" hotkey is not just a copy of the
> ability key; it's a social that does /attack off, /doability FD, /loc.
> And my "Mend" hotkey (heal self 25%) is a social that includes /time
> so I'll know when it's going to reset.
>
> Sure, in a pinch I can click on the ability keys directly, but in that
> same pinch I'm likely to need the abilities suddenly, and my reflexes
> are to type the number keys instead of sending the mouse to the ability
> window. (I do keep the ability window visible, but not so much as a
> way to invoke the abilities; rather it's so I can see when the abilities
> have reset, since the social hotkeys don't show me that.)

My hotkey bars are almost entirely populated by buttons I've dragged
there, rather than socials, because I like the visual cue that tells me
when the abilities and spells have reset. I see that you've taken that
into account by leaving the ability window open, so I can see that your
method has merit, and adds the functionality of allowing you to include
/loc or /time and so forth in your macros.

I don't generally use the number keys, though, I'm a mouse user; I click
directly on the button, and its more intuitive for me to see the button
I'm clicking on directly, and whether it's greyed out or not, rather
than watch my spell icons over there and click on the macro's over here,
and my ability icon over there and click on a macro over here.

Then there are abilities like Sit and Attack and Hide, where what I want
to know is whether they are on or not, not due to cycle time
necessarily, but just to see whats going on at a glance. Since those
occupy different pages on the ability window, I'd have to page back and
forth to find out.

And I keep the ability window turned to the social page 2, which is full
of macros like /hidecorpse and /dragcorpse and so on and so forth;
things that get occaisional use but don't belong on one of the two
hotkey bars I normally keep open.

Berg, 57 SK, Combine
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Faeandar <mr_castalot.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> writes:
> The reverse DS, ime, is almost never worth the mana. The mobs don;t
> usually hit often enough to make even a marginal difference. And the
> hammer pet seems to do marginal DPS as well. A nice add if you're
> solo'ing but in a group I find it almost worthless.

Heh, the mobs hit often enough that I usually need a few CHeals over
the course of a fight. And the mana isn't much. The hammer, meanwhile,
costs no mana, though it does "cost a slot" because I cast it using
Ornate leggings. Still, at my level, Ornate isn't bad gear, so I don't
mind that "price".

When the cleric duos with my druid it gets even weirder. The strategy
I often use is to pile on my best 3 dots, then have both characters sit
on their horses (well, one horse and one pony while the mob beats on
the druid's damage shields and the cleric keeps her alive. As long as
the druid resists actually meleeing, she gets sitting mana regen. (Hm,
I think I even got the idea from a thread here a while back, discussing
some other class -- necros? -- using a similar technique.) The reverse
DS certainly is small but still noticeable on top of the druid's two DS
(self-only plus general), and both the hammer and the druid's pet can
add their modest damage. If I have trouble keeping up with the healing
the druid can switch to kiting and the two pets plus dots continue their
work, of course.

> Regarding the kill rate you mentioned, it's a noticeable difference if
> you're 2-boxing since those simple hot keyed nuke buttons can anywhere
> from 4 to 8k of damage over a single fight.

Sure, I tend to use those even if the cleric is mostly just sitting back
and healing. But sending him into melee does seem to noticeably speed
up the kills. I can't do it continuously because of the lost mana regen,
but I get some of that back because I don't need as much healing.
I suppose it's possible that I'd do even better just nuking (which drops
me even further behind on mana, though), but as you say, I don't want
to spend all my time comparing numbers, I just want to play.

-- Don.

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-- See the a.g.e/EQ1 FAQ at http://www.iCynic.com/~don/EQ/age.faq.htm
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-- Sukrasisx, Monk 63 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 57 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you
-- Teviron, Knight 52 on E. Marr remove the "hyphen n s"
-- Wizbeau, Wizard 36 on E. Marr
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Faeandar <mr_castalot.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> writes:
> there are a grip of casters who have no idea clerics can improve their
> cast time.

Yup, as others have noted, it definitely stacks with items, as long
both are applicable. My cleric always does a /whotarget when doing
Temps or Rezzes, and throws in a spell haste if appropriate.

-- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- See the a.g.e/EQ1 FAQ at http://www.iCynic.com/~don/EQ/age.faq.htm
--
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 63 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 57 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you
-- Teviron, Knight 52 on E. Marr remove the "hyphen n s"
-- Wizbeau, Wizard 36 on E. Marr
 >> Stay informed about: Time and Tides 

"Faeandar" <mr_castalot.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:g0lse2hnmm3h8hkr6gionm61t5g292rrn5@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:16:33 -0400, Lance Berg <emporer.RemoveThis@dejazzd.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>In an AOE group, clerics can lay down a noticable amount of PBAOE
>>damage, after keeping the chanters afloat during the pull phase, and of
>>course being available to rez the group afterwards if things go badly
>>(unfortunately, this will happen eventually if you AOE regularly)
>
> Our best PBAOE is just over 1k if I recall correctly, maybe close to
> 2k (that's already bit me once today...) and while it may hit
> unlimited targets it will also garner you unlimited aggro. A surefire
> way to buy the farm.
>
>

well, in a group specifically designed to exploit pb-aoe spells, you
wouldn't die before anyone else in your party =)

typical makeup is 1 cleric, 2 enchanters, 2 wizards (or less desirable but
functional - mage/druid), 1 puller ... where the chantys chain cast their
pb-aoe stuns and everyone else casts any pb-aoe damage ... and the crux of
making it profitable is to have at least 15 mobs in a pull

with a talented group, there's no reason you can't have 30-40+ mobs per pull

the cleric is there to heal, obviously, because it's inevitable someone is
going to get hit eventually, *but* the cleric's "word of <whatever>" spell
line can contribute damage on a very efficient level

firiona.fazo ~ 30 wizard
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b wrote:
> "Faeandar" <mr_castalot.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:g0lse2hnmm3h8hkr6gionm61t5g292rrn5@4ax.com...
>
>>On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:16:33 -0400, Lance Berg <emporer.DeleteThis@dejazzd.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In an AOE group, clerics can lay down a noticable amount of PBAOE
>>>damage, after keeping the chanters afloat during the pull phase, and of
>>>course being available to rez the group afterwards if things go badly
>>>(unfortunately, this will happen eventually if you AOE regularly)
>>
>>Our best PBAOE is just over 1k if I recall correctly, maybe close to
>>2k (that's already bit me once today...) and while it may hit
>>unlimited targets it will also garner you unlimited aggro. A surefire
>>way to buy the farm.
>>
>>
>
>
> well, in a group specifically designed to exploit pb-aoe spells, you
> wouldn't die before anyone else in your party =)
>
> typical makeup is 1 cleric, 2 enchanters, 2 wizards (or less desirable but
> functional - mage/druid), 1 puller ... where the chantys chain cast their
> pb-aoe stuns and everyone else casts any pb-aoe damage ... and the crux of
> making it profitable is to have at least 15 mobs in a pull
>
> with a talented group, there's no reason you can't have 30-40+ mobs per pull
>
> the cleric is there to heal, obviously, because it's inevitable someone is
> going to get hit eventually, *but* the cleric's "word of <whatever>" spell
> line can contribute damage on a very efficient level
>
> firiona.fazo ~ 30 wizard
>
I meant to reply to this when I first saw it, this is exactly what I was
talking about when I said "in an AOE group". The PB AOE spells are
given to several classes, and are pretty much useless for anything but
this tactic; combining PB AOE damage with PB AOE stuns to kill dozens of
mobs at a time while preventing them from killing you.

Its possible to run a group like this with no healer at all, after all
in theory the mobs are stun locked and don't get to deal any damage...
but resists tend to make exceptions to that theory, and a healer
increases the odds of success. Any healer could do that job though, its
not a CHeal critical mission; clerics get faster bigger heals and nice
group heals, so they have the advantage to some extent...

But the principle reason you'd want to include a cleric instead of some
other class is another popular function of the cleric that people are
overlooking in the "nothing but heals" theory. Clerics have the best
Rez. While they are present as healers to back up the total stun lock
being laid down by the enchanters, they can't do anything if the
enchanters get stunned themselves and stop laying down the lock. 30 or
40 (actually the most mobs I ever killed in a group like this was 70)
mobs out from under stun lock are a fast wipe for the party, and anice
96% rez really helps make up for that. When you're getting exp for
killing 40 mobs at a time, and occaisionally losing 4% of what you
normally would for a death, you just shrug off the deaths and get back
to work.

Bergh, 65 cleric, Morell Thule (retired)
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On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:07:43 -0400, "b" <nubbudy.RemoveThis@nuthing.net> wrote:

>
>"Faeandar" <mr_castalot.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:g0lse2hnmm3h8hkr6gionm61t5g292rrn5@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:16:33 -0400, Lance Berg <emporer.RemoveThis@dejazzd.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>In an AOE group, clerics can lay down a noticable amount of PBAOE
>>>damage, after keeping the chanters afloat during the pull phase, and of
>>>course being available to rez the group afterwards if things go badly
>>>(unfortunately, this will happen eventually if you AOE regularly)
>>
>> Our best PBAOE is just over 1k if I recall correctly, maybe close to
>> 2k (that's already bit me once today...) and while it may hit
>> unlimited targets it will also garner you unlimited aggro. A surefire
>> way to buy the farm.
>>
>>
>
>well, in a group specifically designed to exploit pb-aoe spells, you
>wouldn't die before anyone else in your party =)
>
>typical makeup is 1 cleric, 2 enchanters, 2 wizards (or less desirable but
>functional - mage/druid), 1 puller ... where the chantys chain cast their
>pb-aoe stuns and everyone else casts any pb-aoe damage ... and the crux of
>making it profitable is to have at least 15 mobs in a pull
>
>with a talented group, there's no reason you can't have 30-40+ mobs per pull
>
>the cleric is there to heal, obviously, because it's inevitable someone is
>going to get hit eventually, *but* the cleric's "word of <whatever>" spell
>line can contribute damage on a very efficient level
>
>firiona.fazo ~ 30 wizard
>

Now that sounds like fun. I have to say I've never been in a group
like this because of the makeup of our guild. But I understand what
you're describing.

~F
 >> Stay informed about: Time and Tides 

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:14:31 +0100, Tony <tony@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

>Faeandar wrote:
>
>> I've heard stories of mobs that will kill a tank in less than 1
>> second, so a 10 CH rotation isn;t enough. So they line up 20 and do
>> it every .5 seconds. Could be the mob, could be the raid. Either
>> way, keep the MT alive and the other 59% that is DPS has all the time
>> in the world really.
>
>Wow you have some odd ideas about raiding. These days, anything with
>the DPS you describe above certainly doesn't exist in the way you
>describe it, because virtually every raid since GoD onwards has
>something else killing your DPS like AE's, trash, traps etc.

I have very few ideas actually. I hardly raid at all anymore and
usually those are pickup raids. Like I said, "I've heard stories..",
never been in anything like what I described.

~F
 >> Stay informed about: Time and Tides 

Faeandar wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:14:31 +0100, Tony <tony@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

>> Faeandar wrote:

>>> I've heard stories of mobs that will kill a tank in less than 1
>>> second, so a 10 CH rotation isn;t enough. So they line up 20 and do
>>> it every .5 seconds. Could be the mob, could be the raid. Either
>>> way, keep the MT alive and the other 59% that is DPS has all the time
>>> in the world really.

>> Wow you have some odd ideas about raiding. These days, anything with
>> the DPS you describe above certainly doesn't exist in the way you
>> describe it, because virtually every raid since GoD onwards has
>> something else killing your DPS like AE's, trash, traps etc.

> I have very few ideas actually. I hardly raid at all anymore and
> usually those are pickup raids. Like I said, "I've heard stories..",
> never been in anything like what I described.

Then I'd be careful about basing your understanding and comments on
raiding against those stories.

Also, I'd be cautious about writing off raiding as a passtime without
actually doing some, there are several different kinds of raiding and
there's a whole spectrum of quality.

--
Tony Evans
Saving trees and wasting electrons since 1993
blog -> http://perception-is-truth.blogspot.com/
[ anything below this line wasn't written by me ]
 >> Stay informed about: Time and Tides 

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:20:24 +0100, Tony <tony@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

>Faeandar wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:14:31 +0100, Tony <tony@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
>
>>> Faeandar wrote:
>
>>>> I've heard stories of mobs that will kill a tank in less than 1
>>>> second, so a 10 CH rotation isn;t enough. So they line up 20 and do
>>>> it every .5 seconds. Could be the mob, could be the raid. Either
>>>> way, keep the MT alive and the other 59% that is DPS has all the time
>>>> in the world really.
>
>>> Wow you have some odd ideas about raiding. These days, anything with
>>> the DPS you describe above certainly doesn't exist in the way you
>>> describe it, because virtually every raid since GoD onwards has
>>> something else killing your DPS like AE's, trash, traps etc.
>
>> I have very few ideas actually. I hardly raid at all anymore and
>> usually those are pickup raids. Like I said, "I've heard stories..",
>> never been in anything like what I described.
>
>Then I'd be careful about basing your understanding and comments on
>raiding against those stories.

Wasn't basing my understanding of raiding on those comments, just
reasoning it out.

>
>Also, I'd be cautious about writing off raiding as a passtime without
>actually doing some, there are several different kinds of raiding and
>there's a whole spectrum of quality.

There's a baker's ton of radomness of quality in this, or any I guess,
game. I don't think I've ever based anything on any one topic or
experience. Raiding for me was mostly over quite some time back. Now
it's not really an option because of our guild; not exactly large.
But truly, I dont feel I'm missing much as there is content enough for
us even still.

~F
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