|
Related Topics:
| 7DRL: Invader - Well, I've talked myself into a game for the 7DRL :-) Invader will be a sci-fi RL where the player is the planet's only hope of stopping a dread alien invasion ship. The base of will be their docked ship. ..
7DRL: TBA! :P - I'm going to throw my hat into the 7drl arena by taking on a project I've wanted to do for ages. I think it will get me past the mental block of actually getting started. My concept is based around the remains of a post world with gang..
7DRL : Commander - It is 13.40 in my time zone (GMT +100). Time to start my 7DRL project: I will do it in Free Pascal. Plans are quite big so there is real danger of failure. Good luck to all of 7DRL contest. -- Michal Bielinski
7DRL : Valley of Ge-Hinnom - Info : @ goes chase to Moloch, java, using my library, so if I fail at least I can post an updated library. T.
7DRL - Deserted... - Okay, Here's to learning new things :) I am beginning work on my 7DRL, Deserted. Everybody loves waking up on a desert island, right? C++, dev-cpp, minGW... no curses.. I'm just beginning to dip into that. So, everyone get ready for a
|
|
|
Next: Effects -- What I'm working on now. (longish)
|
| Author |
Message |
|
Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopie
|
External

Since: Jun 14, 2006 Posts: 217
|
(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:22 pm
Post subject: A Theory of Fun Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>development (more info?)
|
|
|
I've been recently reading a fun little book by Raph Koster,
titled "A Theory of Fun in Game Design". The author defines
fun as the pleasure we get from learning with the game, and
admits there are many othe different kinds of pleasures one
can get from a game. Then he proceeds to cite some theories
about how we learn and what it is needed for. There is also
a checklist of things that a "fun" game design might need.
I think this list is interesting, and I will summarize here
some of the points:
* Preparation: you have some tasks to perform in your game,
which require gathering of resources, getting the correct
values of some parameters, equipping some items or generally
doing something different than the tasks themselves. This
might be split into separate phases -- like visiting towns
and dungeons -- or it may be more fluent, like exploring and
fighting. It is important that the way you prepare impacts
the way you can actually perform the tasks and their difficulty
level or outcome. It should be generally possible to learn to
prepare in more optimal way. Many roguelike games have this
"preparation" -- "exploration" cycle.
* Space: it's important to "be somewhere" and to be able to
"move somewhere". This sense of space should be simple enough
(or similar to our everyday experiences) to not require special
effort in order to place oneself in relation to important game
objects. Roguelikes have a rather traditional and well-defined
world representation, but there is always room for innovation --
but beware, a Descent-based roguelike might be too confusing.
* Core mechanic: relatively simple basic set of rules, simple
enough to understand them, but interacting in a complex enough
way as to create a large number of possibilities that can be then
clarified with additional, more complicated rules -- the content.
I think that the core mechanic is what makes the roguelike games
roguelike.
* Challenges: particular sets of specific rules, fitting within
the core mechanic, but much more specific, providing a problem to
be solved. There should be a wide range of distinct challenges: different
monsters with distinct attacks, vulnerabilities and behaviors, variety
of dangerous situations, traps, curses, vaults, quests.
* Multiple solutions: you can perform the tasks and defeat the challenges
using different abilities, depedning on what you have available at the
moment, what you can think of and what you prefer. This includes allowing
a wide range of strategies, maybe even suggested explicitly by the use
of races and classes, maybe just guaranteed by leaving the challenges
open ended. There should always be more than one way to solve a problem.
* Skill requirement: the game is not a movie, it cannot just let you play
through it without effort -- it should make you learn by requiring certain
skills. This may be a tactical skill, good planning, puzzle solving,
resource management, memorization, analysis, timing, etc. -- anything
goes. It's just important that performing well must be rewarded in some
way, and performing bad -- punished. Preferably with some feedback system
that lets you adjust your behavior as you learn more. Also, performing
tasks requiring little skill should have small (or no) rewards.
This is it, at least the way I understood it. The book is mentions some
names and sources that have more detailed information -- I will need to
look into these. I hope this checklist will help you design the game of
your dreams -- but don't hold onto it too much. It all about art in the
end, after all, and art cannot be analyzed throughfully.
--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski <http://sheep.art.pl>
If something happens, it must be possible.
-- Scott Cox's First Law Of Physics >> Stay informed about: A Theory of Fun |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Nov 19, 2007 Posts: 111
|
(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:22 pm
Post subject: Re: A Theory of Fun [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On Feb 2, 5:22 pm, Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <n... DeleteThis @sheep.art.pl>
wrote:
> I've been recently reading a fun little book by Raph Koster,
Fun meaning that you are learning from the book? :>
> titled "A Theory of Fun in Game Design". The author defines
> fun as the pleasure we get from learning with the game, and
> admits there are many othe different kinds of pleasures one
> can get from a game.
The two big ones I took away from his book are "Fun" and "Flow". Fun,
as you say, represents that learning phase. Flow is expressed in
mastery. Flow is performing a complicated action that takes your full
concentration that you've mastered.
In the roguelike world, I think *Bands tend to focus on Flow while
Hacklikes focus on Fun.
> This is it, at least the way I understood it. The book is mentions some
> names and sources that have more detailed information -- I will need to
> look into these. I hope this checklist will help you design the game of
> your dreams -- but don't hold onto it too much. It all about art in the
> end, after all, and art cannot be analyzed throughfully.
There is Art and there is Craft. Craft, as in Craftsmanship, can be
analyzed thoroughly. There is a lot of Craftsmanship to Game Design
that Raph Koster is trying to discern in this book. So I say you
should hold on to it, at least until you can come up with a better
theory. Mind you, I'm a Raph Koster fan-boy, so take my words with
some salt :>
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder) >> Stay informed about: A Theory of Fun |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Nov 16, 2007 Posts: 65
|
(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:52 am
Post subject: Re: A Theory of Fun [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <news RemoveThis @sheep.art.pl> writes:
> I've been recently reading a fun little book by Raph Koster,
> titled "A Theory of Fun in Game Design". The author defines
> fun as the pleasure we get from learning with the game, and
> admits there are many othe different kinds of pleasures one
> can get from a game. Then he proceeds to cite some theories
> about how we learn and what it is needed for. There is also
> a checklist of things that a "fun" game design might need.
I keep telling myself I'm going to read that book.
> * Space: it's important to "be somewhere" and to be able to
> "move somewhere". This sense of space should be simple enough
> (or similar to our everyday experiences) to not require special
> effort in order to place oneself in relation to important game
> objects. Roguelikes have a rather traditional and well-defined
> world representation, but there is always room for innovation --
> but beware, a Descent-based roguelike might be too confusing.
I don't see how... Descent wasn't confusing at all. Actually, I've been
thinking about doing a Descent RL sometime, when I've got a better
handle on the basics. Dunno if I'd try to make it 3d though. >> Stay informed about: A Theory of Fun |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Dec 11, 2007 Posts: 83
|
(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:21 am
Post subject: Re: A Theory of Fun [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On 3 helmi, 00:22, Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <n... RemoveThis @sheep.art.pl>
wrote:
> The author defines
> fun as the pleasure we get from learning with the game, and
> admits there are many othe different kinds of pleasures one
> can get from a game.
No. Really? Wow. Never knew that!
I just have to get that book to learn that! I'm so dumb I can't
figure it out without that book! >> Stay informed about: A Theory of Fun |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Nov 19, 2007 Posts: 111
|
(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:40 pm
Post subject: Re: A Theory of Fun [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On Feb 3, 11:21 am, Krice <pau....RemoveThis@mbnet.fi> wrote:
> On 3 helmi, 00:22, Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopieralski <n....RemoveThis@sheep.art.pl>
> wrote:
>
> > The author defines
> > fun as the pleasure we get from learning with the game, and
> > admits there are many othe different kinds of pleasures one
> > can get from a game.
>
> No. Really? Wow. Never knew that!
> I just have to get that book to learn that! I'm so dumb I can't
> figure it out without that book!
The insight isn't in the recognition that learning a game is
pleasurable, it is the separation of that pleasure from the others and
the application of the label "fun" to it. "fun" is rather poorly
defined, and in games, often applied to the challenge of the game that
has already been defined in literature as "flow".
For example, we all recognize that replacing Tetris with a button that
says "Press to Win" somehow removes the Fun of the game. But what is
it that disappears? The most obvious part is the challenge. However,
this so-called challenge is often described as a grind.
Interestingly, what was once a "fun" often gets described later as a
grind - despite the underlying challenge remaining the same. What is
it that evaporates leaving the grind behind?
The states, as I understand it, would be:
Fun: I am learning the right way to play.
Flow: I know how to play and immersing/losing myself in the play is
enjoyable.
Grind: I know hot to play but it is too simple to immerse myself in so
I become distracted and dissatisfied.
These are all *gameplay* issues - note a complete absence of any talk
of the sort of pleasure gained by watching the plot unfold, or the
quality of the cinematics. All too often these exterior things
pollute people's descriptions of why a game was "fun". Identifying
"learning" as a key element in (single player) games is a powerful
insight that I hadn't encountered so well stated before.
I often see Nethack disparaged for requiring one to learn a hundred
complicated rules. This ignores the fact that it is the very learning
of those rules that is the fun in Nethack. Despite what we are
constantly taught, our brains are hardwired to *enjoy* learning. The
educators plight of "How can I make learning fun?" seems odd when we
define "fun" as "learning".
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder) >> Stay informed about: A Theory of Fun |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Dec 11, 2007 Posts: 83
|
(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:15 am
Post subject: Re: A Theory of Fun [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On 4 helmi, 05:40, Jeff Lait <torespondisfut... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> This ignores the fact that it is the very learning
> of those rules that is the fun in Nethack.
Maybe for power players, but for casual player like me they are
just too much work and details. >> Stay informed about: A Theory of Fun |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Dec 17, 2007 Posts: 37
|
(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:02 am
Post subject: Re: A Theory of Fun [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
On 4 Fev, 08:15, Krice <pau....TakeThisOut@mbnet.fi> wrote:
> On 4 helmi, 05:40, Jeff Lait <torespondisfut....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This ignores the fact that it is the very learning
> > of those rules that is the fun in Nethack.
>
> Maybe for power players, but for casual player like me they are
> just too much work and details.
Actually, many casual players are "explorers" and they're happy to
learn a couple of things about a game every time they play. It's power
players that label it as "too much work and details" because really
what they want is to learn everything and win, so yeah, that *is* "too
much work and details".
Jotaf >> Stay informed about: A Theory of Fun |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Nov 21, 2007 Posts: 15
|
(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:26 am
Post subject: Re: A Theory of Fun [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Jeff Lait wrote:
> Despite what we are constantly taught, our brains are hardwired to *enjoy* learning.
> The educators plight of "How can I make learning fun?" seems odd when we
> define "fun" as "learning".
Sit down, shut up, and we'll fill your head with formulas, dates and
theories that you will probably never use again. Nowadays, we teach
what to think - not how to think for yourself.
How about "fun" as "discovery", rather than "learning"? I hate
learning. Discovery is much better, it's funner and it sticks with you
the rest of your life.
Jeff Lait wrote:
>
> The insight isn't in the recognition that learning a game is
> pleasurable, it is the separation of that pleasure from the others and
> the application of the label "fun" to it. "fun" is rather poorly
> defined, and in games, often applied to the challenge of the game that
> has already been defined in literature as "flow".
>
> [snip]
>
> [kick-ass Tetris "press to win" argument]
>
> The states, as I understand it, would be:
> Fun: I am learning the right way to play.
> Flow: I know how to play and immersing/losing myself in the play is
> enjoyable.
> Grind: I know hot to play but it is too simple to immerse myself in so
> I become distracted and dissatisfied.
>
> [Huge point about isolating gameplay from the rest of the product like story, cinematic, etc]
>
> I often see Nethack disparaged for requiring one to learn a hundred
> complicated rules. This ignores the fact that it is the very learning
> of those rules that is the fun in Nethack.
My game design philosophy has been heavily influenced by the writings
of Chris Crawford, primarily his semi-famous "Dragon Speech". My
interpretation has been that we are impacted by the game "interacting"
with us, that there is this feedback to our actions in this virtual
world that pique our curiosity. Once we've experienced all the
feedback we feel there is, it gets boring. I've found that in Tetris
and other games there is an emergent quality to them, that the
feedback they present the user is adjusted by what the user has done
before - quite unlike most shooter games out there that have scripted
scenery, deterministic enemies (and therefore predictable, if you play
the game enough) and the same damn guns. Play it once and you've
experienced everything in the game that you can. Everything feels
repetitive after that.
It's great business though: pay 80 bucks for a game, play it for a
month, get bored, buy another one.
Krice wrote about learning the rules of NetHack can be fun:
> Maybe for power players, but for casual player like me they are
> just too much work and details.
The perceived payoff isn't worth the work for me either. My free time
is too precious right now. Perhaps there's something about perception
that needs to be taken into account here?
- Craig >> Stay informed about: A Theory of Fun |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Nov 06, 2006 Posts: 838
|
(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:45 pm
Post subject: Re: A Theory of Fun [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
In article <ead6f80f-5e12-41ca-a1ec-969847f04368
@v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, craig.stickel.RemoveThis@gmail.com says...
> Krice wrote about learning the rules of NetHack can be fun:
> > Maybe for power players, but for casual player like me they are
> > just too much work and details.
>
> The perceived payoff isn't worth the work for me either. My free time
> is too precious right now. Perhaps there's something about perception
> that needs to be taken into account here?
Maybe there are different kinds of things that people want to learn? In
Nethack you have to learn a lot of different unrelated things with
binary effects; in other roguelikes you have to learn fewer things but
learn them well (the subtleties of a particular spell, or its cosr-
effectiveness in a given situation).
For me, Nethack is uninteresting because there is too much to remember.
- Gerry Quinn
--
Lair of the Demon Ape (a coffee-break roguelike)
<http://indigo.ie/~gerryq/lair/lair.htm> >> Stay informed about: A Theory of Fun |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
|
Radomir 'The Sheep' Dopie
|
External

Since: Jun 14, 2006 Posts: 217
|
(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:35 pm
Post subject: Re: A Theory of Fun [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
At Wed, 6 Feb 2008 13:45:55 -0000,
Gerry Quinn wrote:
> In article <ead6f80f-5e12-41ca-a1ec-969847f04368
> @v17g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, craig.stickel DeleteThis @gmail.com says...
>> Krice wrote about learning the rules of NetHack can be fun:
>> > Maybe for power players, but for casual player like me they are
>> > just too much work and details.
>> The perceived payoff isn't worth the work for me either. My free time
>> is too precious right now. Perhaps there's something about perception
>> that needs to be taken into account here?
> Maybe there are different kinds of things that people want to learn? In
> Nethack you have to learn a lot of different unrelated things with
> binary effects; in other roguelikes you have to learn fewer things but
> learn them well (the subtleties of a particular spell, or its cosr-
> effectiveness in a given situation).
>
> For me, Nethack is uninteresting because there is too much to remember.
That's another problem with fun in games -- the problems need to be
in the range of difficulty appropriate for the particular player. Make
them too easy, and the thing gets boring and repetitive. Make the patterns
too complicated, and the player can't grasp them and revers to memorizing
single rules instead, making it tedious and uninteresting.
--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski <http://sheep.art.pl>
If something happens, it must be possible.
-- Scott Cox's First Law Of Physics >> Stay informed about: A Theory of Fun |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
|