Tech Level 8+n?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:32:43 -0400, Kent Allard <evil.DeleteThis@hearts_of_men.net>
wrote:

>I'm combing through some older GURPS world books; pre-fourth edition, and I'm
>coming across references to "Tech Level 7+n" (now tech level . I no longer
>have my 3rd edition books and the new rules only refer to tech level X+numeral.
>
>What's the "n" for?

"Something". It's an undetermined variable.

(In other words, it's shorthand for "7+1, 7+2, 7+3, 7+4, 7+5, 7+6, 7+7,
7+8, and 7+9", assuming Third Edition's maximum TL 16 holds).

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"There's always somebody who's going to hate your work, no matter
how good it is. DON'T LET HIM CHASE YOU AWAY FROM WRITING, BECAUSE
THAT WAY HE WINS." - Robert M. Schroeck, 18 July 2006
 >> Stay informed about: Tech Level 8+n? 

Rob Kelk wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:32:43 -0400, Kent Allard <evil.DeleteThis@hearts_of_men.net>
> wrote:
>>I'm combing through some older GURPS world books; pre-fourth edition, and I'm
>>coming across references to "Tech Level 7+n" (now tech level . I no longer
>>have my 3rd edition books and the new rules only refer to tech level X+numeral.
>>
>>What's the "n" for?
>
> "Something". It's an undetermined variable.
>
> (In other words, it's shorthand for "7+1, 7+2, 7+3, 7+4, 7+5, 7+6, 7+7,
> 7+8, and 7+9", assuming Third Edition's maximum TL 16 holds).

It doesn't. The maximum TL in Fourth Edition is 12. Anything beyond that
will be superscience.


Also, Kent may be asking more generally about what the TL X+Y notitation
signifies: It signifies divergent technology, relative to terrestrial
tech (i.e. our way of doing it).

In 3rd Edition, the Victorian Age was TL 5, and after that came TL 6,
the first half of the 20th century, but steampunk is TL 5+1, which means
that they can do the same things as TL 6 (seeing as 5+1 equals one), but
they do it in different ways. And eventually a steampunk setting will
progress to TL 5+2 (this seems to be the case in The Difference Engine,
in some of the vignettes) and then TL 5+3.

(Although it is possible that at some point they may start increasing
the X-value instead of the Y-value, i.e. they go from TL 5 to TL 5+1 to
TL 5+2 to TL 6+2 to TL 6+3. I'm not sure if this is legal, though.)

Another example is GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars (note, this is for
Fourth Edition), where Vilani computer technology is defined as TL 6+4,
meaning that Vilani computers can do the same things as Terran TL 10
computers can, but they do it in a radically different way (chiefly
based around all computers being Dedicated - the notion of a
programmable computer was alien to the Vilani at that time!).

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Tech Level 8+n? 

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 04:06:23 +0200, Peter Knutsen
<peter DeleteThis @sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

>Rob Kelk wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:32:43 -0400, Kent Allard <evil DeleteThis @hearts_of_men.net>
>> wrote:
>>>I'm combing through some older GURPS world books; pre-fourth edition, and I'm
>>>coming across references to "Tech Level 7+n" (now tech level . I no longer
>>>have my 3rd edition books and the new rules only refer to tech level X+numeral.
>>>
>>>What's the "n" for?
>>
>> "Something". It's an undetermined variable.
>>
>> (In other words, it's shorthand for "7+1, 7+2, 7+3, 7+4, 7+5, 7+6, 7+7,
>> 7+8, and 7+9", assuming Third Edition's maximum TL 16 holds).
>
>It doesn't. The maximum TL in Fourth Edition is 12. Anything beyond that
>will be superscience.

Kent was asking about Third Edition, though: "some older GURPS world
books; pre-fourth edition". Before the rules revision, a few people had
postulated TLs beyond 16 might exist... Sorry for not being clear.

>Also, Kent may be asking more generally about what the TL X+Y notitation
>signifies: It signifies divergent technology, relative to terrestrial
>tech (i.e. our way of doing it).

I had assumed he knew that, since he mentioned "the new rules only refer
to tech level X+numeral".

<snip>

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"There's always somebody who's going to hate your work, no matter
how good it is. DON'T LET HIM CHASE YOU AWAY FROM WRITING, BECAUSE
THAT WAY HE WINS." - Robert M. Schroeck, 18 July 2006
 >> Stay informed about: Tech Level 8+n? 

In article <47229d0a$0$21926$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>,
Peter Knutsen <peter.RemoveThis@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

> Rob Kelk wrote:
> > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:32:43 -0400, Kent Allard <evil.RemoveThis@hearts_of_men.net>
> > wrote:
> >>I'm combing through some older GURPS world books; pre-fourth edition, and
> >>I'm
> >>coming across references to "Tech Level 7+n" (now tech level . I no
> >>longer
> >>have my 3rd edition books and the new rules only refer to tech level
> >>X+numeral.
> >>
> >>What's the "n" for?
> >
> > "Something". It's an undetermined variable.
> >
> > (In other words, it's shorthand for "7+1, 7+2, 7+3, 7+4, 7+5, 7+6, 7+7,
> > 7+8, and 7+9", assuming Third Edition's maximum TL 16 holds).
>
> It doesn't. The maximum TL in Fourth Edition is 12. Anything beyond that
> will be superscience.

Actually in 4e superscience has its own special definition: science that
requires physical laws different from those thought to be true. It also
has a special symbol: ^.

FTL travel is a ^.

> Also, Kent may be asking more generally about what the TL X+Y notitation
> signifies: It signifies divergent technology, relative to terrestrial
> tech (i.e. our way of doing it).

Actually TL(x+y) means a divergent TL from that of this timeline. Problem
is Stoddard's examples in SteamPunk and SteamTech are more confusing then
they are help because he gives us TL(5+1) items that REALLY EXISTED in OTL:

Vehicles

Cargo Dirigible TL(5+1) STM81
Zepplin TL(5+1) STE90

Devices

Dewar Flask ie Thermos TL(5+1) STE42
Howizer TL(5+1) STE98
Speaking Mutoscope TL(5+1) STE58
The kinetophone

Drugs

Acetylsalicylic Acid ie Asprin TL(5+1) STM92
Arsphenamine TL(5+1) STM92
Sulfanilamide TL(5+1) STM93

And here is a list of TL5 stuff that did NOT exist:

Vehicles

Canal Iceboat TL5 STE78
Land Ironclad TL5 STM74
Luna Shell TL5 STM83
Rocket Pack TL5 STM88
Steam Junk TL5 STM78

Devices

Vulcan Gun TL5 STE14
Dynamite Gun TL5 STE16
Pocket Gazogene TL5 STE 42
Amputation Assistant TL5 STE54
Autopantograph TL5 STE69
Electrolytic Gun TL5 STE99
Kaze-Shi TL5 STE103

Drugs

Spiritual Inhalant TL5 STE105


Of these items only the kinetophone can really be called TL(5+1) as the TL6
counterpart was Lauste's sound on film method.


> In 3rd Edition, the Victorian Age was TL 5, and after that came TL 6,
> the first half of the 20th century, but steampunk is TL 5+1, which means
> that they can do the same things as TL 6 (seeing as 5+1 equals one), but
> they do it in different ways. And eventually a steampunk setting will
> progress to TL 5+2 (this seems to be the case in The Difference Engine,
> in some of the vignettes) and then TL 5+3.
>
> (Although it is possible that at some point they may start increasing
> the X-value instead of the Y-value, i.e. they go from TL 5 to TL 5+1 to
> TL 5+2 to TL 6+2 to TL 6+3. I'm not sure if this is legal, though.)
>
> Another example is GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars (note, this is for
> Fourth Edition), where Vilani computer technology is defined as TL 6+4,
> meaning that Vilani computers can do the same things as Terran TL 10
> computers can, but they do it in a radically different way (chiefly
> based around all computers being Dedicated - the notion of a
> programmable computer was alien to the Vilani at that time!).

Also realize that TLs doesn't have to be in lockstep. YOu have have TL6
medicine coexisting with TL(4+2) vehicles.
 >> Stay informed about: Tech Level 8+n? 

Bruce Grubb wrote:
> Actually TL(x+y) means a divergent TL from that of this timeline. Problem
> is Stoddard's examples in SteamPunk and SteamTech are more confusing then
> they are help because he gives us TL(5+1) items that REALLY EXISTED in OTL:
> ...
> Of these items only the kinetophone can really be called TL(5+1) as the TL6
> counterpart was Lauste's sound on film method.

That notation was introduced in Steampunk and Steam-Tech, and at the
point of introduction I believe the thought was that the world would be
(5+1) if any part of it was divergent. Later, they changed their minds
about that; hence, your confusion.

--
Andrew Hackard
hackard.TakeThisOut@austin.rr.com
 >> Stay informed about: Tech Level 8+n? 

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:53:37 -0700, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb RemoveThis @zianet.com>
wrote:

>In article <47229d0a$0$21926$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>,
> Peter Knutsen <peter RemoveThis @sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Rob Kelk wrote:
>> > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:32:43 -0400, Kent Allard <evil RemoveThis @hearts_of_men.net>
>> > wrote:
>> >>I'm combing through some older GURPS world books; pre-fourth edition, and
>> >>I'm
>> >>coming across references to "Tech Level 7+n" (now tech level . I no
>> >>longer
>> >>have my 3rd edition books and the new rules only refer to tech level
>> >>X+numeral.
>> >>
>> >>What's the "n" for?
>> >
>> > "Something". It's an undetermined variable.
>> >
>> > (In other words, it's shorthand for "7+1, 7+2, 7+3, 7+4, 7+5, 7+6, 7+7,
>> > 7+8, and 7+9", assuming Third Edition's maximum TL 16 holds).
>>
>> It doesn't. The maximum TL in Fourth Edition is 12. Anything beyond that
>> will be superscience.
>
>Actually in 4e superscience has its own special definition: science that
>requires physical laws different from those thought to be true. It also
>has a special symbol: ^.
>
>FTL travel is a ^.
>
>> Also, Kent may be asking more generally about what the TL X+Y notitation
>> signifies: It signifies divergent technology, relative to terrestrial
>> tech (i.e. our way of doing it).
>
>Actually TL(x+y) means a divergent TL from that of this timeline. Problem
>is Stoddard's examples in SteamPunk and SteamTech are more confusing then
>they are help because he gives us TL(5+1) items that REALLY EXISTED in OTL:

Who says their dirigibles aren't different from ours?
 >> Stay informed about: Tech Level 8+n? 

Bruce Grubb wrote:
[...]
> And here is a list of TL5 stuff that did NOT exist:

*Nothing* wrong with that. Nothing whatsoever. The vehicles you mention
could have been made at TL 5, meaning that they were within the
possibilities of what a TL 5 society could choose to create. None of
*our* TL 5 societies hppened to choose so, but they could have.

> Vehicles
>
> Canal Iceboat TL5 STE78
> Land Ironclad TL5 STM74
> Luna Shell TL5 STM83
> Rocket Pack TL5 STM88
> Steam Junk TL5 STM78

Okay, some of these may be questionable, for instance the Luna Shell.

But the point of GURPS is not to limit people to what *was* done at a
given TL, but to what *could* have been done. If you can build a TL 5
Land Ironclad with GURPS Vehicles then that Land Ironclad is absolutely
and entirely legitimate TL 5.

Same for your devices, which I've snipped.

[...]
>>In 3rd Edition, the Victorian Age was TL 5, and after that came TL 6,
>>the first half of the 20th century, but steampunk is TL 5+1, which means
>>that they can do the same things as TL 6 (seeing as 5+1 equals one), but
>>they do it in different ways. And eventually a steampunk setting will
>>progress to TL 5+2 (this seems to be the case in The Difference Engine,
>>in some of the vignettes) and then TL 5+3.
>>
>>(Although it is possible that at some point they may start increasing
>>the X-value instead of the Y-value, i.e. they go from TL 5 to TL 5+1 to
>>TL 5+2 to TL 6+2 to TL 6+3. I'm not sure if this is legal, though.)
>>
>>Another example is GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars (note, this is for
>>Fourth Edition), where Vilani computer technology is defined as TL 6+4,
>>meaning that Vilani computers can do the same things as Terran TL 10
>>computers can, but they do it in a radically different way (chiefly
>>based around all computers being Dedicated - the notion of a
>>programmable computer was alien to the Vilani at that time!).
>
> Also realize that TLs doesn't have to be in lockstep. YOu have have TL6
> medicine coexisting with TL(4+2) vehicles.

In the same setting, yes. Not necessarily in the same culture. I'd
object to a GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars GM who tells me that the
Vilani can *choose* to switch from making TL 6+4 computers to making TL
10 computers.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Tech Level 8+n? 

In article <44tfj3hpiv94bqaccnrh7g7al38bidkmep.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
David Johnston <david.RemoveThis@block.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:53:37 -0700, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb.RemoveThis@zianet.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <47229d0a$0$21926$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>,
> > Peter Knutsen <peter.RemoveThis@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Rob Kelk wrote:
> >> > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:32:43 -0400, Kent Allard <evil.RemoveThis@hearts_of_men.net>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>I'm combing through some older GURPS world books; pre-fourth edition,
> >> >>and
> >> >>I'm
> >> >>coming across references to "Tech Level 7+n" (now tech level . I no
> >> >>longer
> >> >>have my 3rd edition books and the new rules only refer to tech level
> >> >>X+numeral.
> >> >>
> >> >>What's the "n" for?
> >> >
> >> > "Something". It's an undetermined variable.
> >> >
> >> > (In other words, it's shorthand for "7+1, 7+2, 7+3, 7+4, 7+5, 7+6, 7+7,
> >> > 7+8, and 7+9", assuming Third Edition's maximum TL 16 holds).
> >>
> >> It doesn't. The maximum TL in Fourth Edition is 12. Anything beyond that
> >> will be superscience.
> >
> >Actually in 4e superscience has its own special definition: science that
> >requires physical laws different from those thought to be true. It also
> >has a special symbol: ^.
> >
> >FTL travel is a ^.
> >
> >> Also, Kent may be asking more generally about what the TL X+Y notitation
> >> signifies: It signifies divergent technology, relative to terrestrial
> >> tech (i.e. our way of doing it).
> >
> >Actually TL(x+y) means a divergent TL from that of this timeline. Problem
> >is Stoddard's examples in SteamPunk and SteamTech are more confusing then
> >they are help because he gives us TL(5+1) items that REALLY EXISTED in OTL:
>
> Who says their dirigibles aren't different from ours?

There is nothing in the description to indicate this AND this does not
solve problems like the HMS Dreanought: "This is the first of the class
lunched in 1906 a real vehicle that exemplifies TL(5+1) SME97. Yet in the
pyramid newsgroups Stoddard tried to say this was TL6 (ie OUR TL6). Like I
said not very helpful and downright confusing.
 >> Stay informed about: Tech Level 8+n? 

Bruce Grubb <bgrubb.RemoveThis@zianet.com> wrote:
> In article <44tfj3hpiv94bqaccnrh7g7al38bidkmep.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
> David Johnston <david.RemoveThis@block.net> wrote:
<snip>
> > >Actually TL(x+y) means a divergent TL from that of this timeline. Problem
> > >is Stoddard's examples in SteamPunk and SteamTech are more confusing then
> > >they are help because he gives us TL(5+1) items that REALLY EXISTED in OTL:
> >
> > Who says their dirigibles aren't different from ours?

> There is nothing in the description to indicate this AND this does not
> solve problems like the HMS Dreanought: "This is the first of the class
> lunched in 1906 a real vehicle that exemplifies TL(5+1) SME97. Yet in the
> pyramid newsgroups Stoddard tried to say this was TL6 (ie OUR TL6). Like I
> said not very helpful and downright confusing.

Eh, I'd just say that the +n part means that the divergent item turned out
to be superior to the alternatives, rather than inferior (which would eb
why they were dropped). In fact, as a rule of thumb, and TL(n+1) item
-ought- to have real world examples that simply didn't pan out. If no one
even tried it, then you're looking at TL(n+2) minimum.


John
--
Here, have 10 Opus Points (TM)
Remove the dead poet to e-mail.
Ask me about joining the NRA.
 >> Stay informed about: Tech Level 8+n? 

In article <473a1fba$0$27005$6c5eefc5@news.westnet.com>,
raven RemoveThis @westnet.poe.com (Raven-Poe) wrote:

> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb RemoveThis @zianet.com> wrote:
> > In article <44tfj3hpiv94bqaccnrh7g7al38bidkmep RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
> > David Johnston <david RemoveThis @block.net> wrote:
> <snip>
> > > >Actually TL(x+y) means a divergent TL from that of this timeline.
> > > >Problem
> > > >is Stoddard's examples in SteamPunk and SteamTech are more confusing
> > > >then
> > > >they are help because he gives us TL(5+1) items that REALLY EXISTED in
> > > >OTL:
> > >
> > > Who says their dirigibles aren't different from ours?
>
> > There is nothing in the description to indicate this AND this does not
> > solve problems like the HMS Dreanought: "This is the first of the class
> > lunched in 1906 a real vehicle that exemplifies TL(5+1) SME97. Yet in the
> > pyramid newsgroups Stoddard tried to say this was TL6 (ie OUR TL6). Like I
> > said not very helpful and downright confusing.
>
> Eh, I'd just say that the +n part means that the divergent item turned out
> to be superior to the alternatives, rather than inferior (which would eb
> why they were dropped). In fact, as a rule of thumb, and TL(n+1) item
> -ought- to have real world examples that simply didn't pan out. If no one
> even tried it, then you're looking at TL(n+2) minimum.

We had long talks about this over in rec.games.frp.dnd in the "Disadvantage
self-control ratings (Re: Alignment vs. Culture)" thread.

The Superscience notation is the biggest bugaboo as things that were on the
3e TL scale were pulled off in 4e messing up many of the 'Superscience'
TL(5+1) devices in Steampunk and Steamtech.

""Superscience" technologies violate physical laws - relativity,
concervation of energy, etc. - as we currently understand them"

For example anti-gravity screens that were TL(5+1) in GURPS 3e become TL5^
in 4e. Anything involving N-rays could be viewed as TL6^ not TL(5+1) in 4e
because N-rays do not exist.

In fact if you argue the point the old 3e idea steampunk being TL(5+1) got
a real stomping changing in 4e to TL5^(5+1)^/6^. In other words OTL TL5 and
TL6 with some superscience stuff thrown in along with the TL(5+1)

When you start entering into the next TL you are going to have people
trying to understand the new TL in terms of the old. This is as much
TL(x+1) as an actual invention as they are at -2 to really understand how
the device really works.

Was the De Havilland Comet's deadly design flaw early TL7 or a real world
example of TL(6+1) enginering? And what about the Mitsubishi J8M series of
rocket powered planes? Were they the last innovations of TL6, early TL7 or
a TL(6+1) dead end?

Then you have the 1950's (TL6) flying wings that due to technological
problems had to wait until the 1980's (TL7) before all the problems were
worked out. Where does the flying wing fit on the the TL scale and what of
the Horten Ho 229 of 1945?

These are the kinds of things that the GUPRS TL scale goes 'ugh' about.
 >> Stay informed about: Tech Level 8+n? 

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:17:03 -0700, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb DeleteThis @zianet.com>
wrote:

>In article <473a1fba$0$27005$6c5eefc5@news.westnet.com>,
> raven DeleteThis @westnet.poe.com (Raven-Poe) wrote:
>
>> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb DeleteThis @zianet.com> wrote:
>> > In article <44tfj3hpiv94bqaccnrh7g7al38bidkmep DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
>> > David Johnston <david DeleteThis @block.net> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> > > >Actually TL(x+y) means a divergent TL from that of this timeline.
>> > > >Problem
>> > > >is Stoddard's examples in SteamPunk and SteamTech are more confusing
>> > > >then
>> > > >they are help because he gives us TL(5+1) items that REALLY EXISTED in
>> > > >OTL:
>> > >
>> > > Who says their dirigibles aren't different from ours?
>>
>> > There is nothing in the description to indicate this AND this does not
>> > solve problems like the HMS Dreanought: "This is the first of the class
>> > lunched in 1906 a real vehicle that exemplifies TL(5+1) SME97. Yet in the
>> > pyramid newsgroups Stoddard tried to say this was TL6 (ie OUR TL6). Like I
>> > said not very helpful and downright confusing.
>>
>> Eh, I'd just say that the +n part means that the divergent item turned out
>> to be superior to the alternatives, rather than inferior (which would eb
>> why they were dropped). In fact, as a rule of thumb, and TL(n+1) item
>> -ought- to have real world examples that simply didn't pan out. If no one
>> even tried it, then you're looking at TL(n+2) minimum.
>
>We had long talks about this over in rec.games.frp.dnd in the "Disadvantage
>self-control ratings (Re: Alignment vs. Culture)" thread.
>
>The Superscience notation is the biggest bugaboo as things that were on the
>3e TL scale were pulled off in 4e messing up many of the 'Superscience'
>TL(5+1) devices in Steampunk and Steamtech.
>
>""Superscience" technologies violate physical laws - relativity,
>concervation of energy, etc. - as we currently understand them"
>
>For example anti-gravity screens that were TL(5+1) in GURPS 3e become TL5^
>in 4e.

However technology based on those anti-gravity screens would be
TL(5+1)^


Anything involving N-rays could be viewed as TL6^ not TL(5+1) in 4e
>because N-rays do not exist.
>
>In fact if you argue the point the old 3e idea steampunk being TL(5+1) got
>a real stomping changing in 4e to TL5^(5+1)^/6^. In other words OTL TL5 and
>TL6 with some superscience stuff thrown in along with the TL(5+1)
>
>When you start entering into the next TL you are going to have people
>trying to understand the new TL in terms of the old. This is as much
>TL(x+1) as an actual invention as they are at -2 to really understand how
>the device really works.
>
>Was the De Havilland Comet's deadly design flaw early TL7 or a real world
>example of TL(6+1) enginering? And what about the Mitsubishi J8M series of
>rocket powered planes? Were they the last innovations of TL6, early TL7 or
>a TL(6+1) dead end?

I don't think they'd pose a mystery to any contemporaneous
aeronautical engineer with a familiarity with rocketry in our
timeline.

>
>Then you have the 1950's (TL6) flying wings that due to technological
>problems had to wait until the 1980's (TL7) before all the problems were
>worked out. Where does the flying wing fit on the the TL scale and what of
>the Horten Ho 229 of 1945?

The 1950s are TL 7 on the current TL scale. So for that matter are
the 1940s, although that's the transitional period. So the answer is
"TL 7". Not that you couldn't make a TL 8+ flying wing.
 >> Stay informed about: Tech Level 8+n?