Sword design thoughts...

Peter Meilinger wrote:
> Eric B. Smith wrote:
>
> > As I mentioned, Cosmic: No DR and Cosmic: No Defense allow you to slice
> > through any armor and prevents the weapon from being parried by all but
> > another cosmic weapon. You might consider reducing the cost of No Defense if
> > the target can Dodge the attack - since Block and Parry are usually the
> > better defenses this should only reduce the cost to +250% instead of the
> > +300% for absolutely no defense roll.
>
> I can't think of any reason this ability wouldn't allow an opponent to
> dodge,
> so that makes sense. I'm also having a hard time understanding why
> parrying would be absolutely impossible, though. Difficult, yes, but
> would every single possible parry encounter the super-sharp edge of
> the weapon? None of them would impact with the flat of the blade?
> Ever? That seems unlikely to me, but I'm not sure how to model the
> effect. At the very least, though, it seems to me that if you're facing
> an opponent who knows how powerful the sword is, he could at
> least try to parry more carefully than usual, probably modeled by
> a minus to his parry roll. So if he's got a parry of 12 and a minus
> 3 to parry this sword, if he rolls a 9 or less he parries successfully,
> if he rolls a 10-12 he parries the edge of the blade and his weapon
> gets chopped, and I suppose if he rolls a 13+ he misses entirely
> and his parrying weapon is fine. If all that makes any sense,
> anyway. I'm not advocating a -3 to parry, just using it as an
> example.
>
> My other problem with the "No Defense" rule is, what about
> defenses that have a special effect that wouldn't be affected
> by a super-sharp edge? Incredibly dense Unobtainium armor,
> for example, or a magnetic force field that only repels metal
> objects. And would the sword allow you to cut an opponent
> who has Insubstantial or whatever it's called these days?
>
> I'm not at all familiar with the Cosmic powers thing, so
> maybe this sort of thing is dealt with in those rules. Could
> someone buy a Cosmic advantage for their armor/force
> field/whatever that would overrule any No Defense advantage
> on an attack?
>

<cough> Maybe, if we are allowing the faith of the weilder to give the
blade it's edge, it might follow that the rest of the blade is also
empowered? Not with sharp-ness, but with the constitution needed to
parry cuts from this kind of blade?
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

Some more food for thought...

If so far, the only thing that can repel this blade is a similar kind
of blade, then would it add a bit to the flavour of the combat to add
extra detail to the swordplay? Extra techniques, maybe a revised
hit-location table for those trained in duelling?


TypewriterLove wrote:
> Peter Meilinger wrote:
> > Eric B. Smith wrote:
> >
> > > As I mentioned, Cosmic: No DR and Cosmic: No Defense allow you to slice
> > > through any armor and prevents the weapon from being parried by all but
> > > another cosmic weapon. You might consider reducing the cost of No Defense if
> > > the target can Dodge the attack - since Block and Parry are usually the
> > > better defenses this should only reduce the cost to +250% instead of the
> > > +300% for absolutely no defense roll.
> >
> > I can't think of any reason this ability wouldn't allow an opponent to
> > dodge,
> > so that makes sense. I'm also having a hard time understanding why
> > parrying would be absolutely impossible, though. Difficult, yes, but
> > would every single possible parry encounter the super-sharp edge of
> > the weapon? None of them would impact with the flat of the blade?
> > Ever? That seems unlikely to me, but I'm not sure how to model the
> > effect. At the very least, though, it seems to me that if you're facing
> > an opponent who knows how powerful the sword is, he could at
> > least try to parry more carefully than usual, probably modeled by
> > a minus to his parry roll. So if he's got a parry of 12 and a minus
> > 3 to parry this sword, if he rolls a 9 or less he parries successfully,
> > if he rolls a 10-12 he parries the edge of the blade and his weapon
> > gets chopped, and I suppose if he rolls a 13+ he misses entirely
> > and his parrying weapon is fine. If all that makes any sense,
> > anyway. I'm not advocating a -3 to parry, just using it as an
> > example.
> >
> > My other problem with the "No Defense" rule is, what about
> > defenses that have a special effect that wouldn't be affected
> > by a super-sharp edge? Incredibly dense Unobtainium armor,
> > for example, or a magnetic force field that only repels metal
> > objects. And would the sword allow you to cut an opponent
> > who has Insubstantial or whatever it's called these days?
> >
> > I'm not at all familiar with the Cosmic powers thing, so
> > maybe this sort of thing is dealt with in those rules. Could
> > someone buy a Cosmic advantage for their armor/force
> > field/whatever that would overrule any No Defense advantage
> > on an attack?
> >
>
> <cough> Maybe, if we are allowing the faith of the weilder to give the
> blade it's edge, it might follow that the rest of the blade is also
> empowered? Not with sharp-ness, but with the constitution needed to
> parry cuts from this kind of blade?
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

Peter Meilinger banged his head on the keyboard and produced:
> I'm not at all familiar with the Cosmic powers thing, so
> maybe this sort of thing is dealt with in those rules. Could
> someone buy a Cosmic advantage for their armor/force
> field/whatever that would overrule any No Defense advantage
> on an attack?

GURPS Powers goes into much greater detail explaining how this all works,
but basically any Cosmic power can be used to repel another Cosmic power,
where appropriate. Basically, Cosmic trumps all mundane powers, but in
Cosmic vs. Cosmic you treat both abilities as if they were both mundane. In
this case any Cosmic DR would protect normally from this sword, and any
Cosmic power that allows you to Block or Parry could be used to block or
parry this sword. Whether Technological Armor or Force Fields counts as
'Cosmic' for the purpose of this power is a GM call, however if defenses are
too common that's severely undercutting the value of the (very expensive)
Cosmic enhancements on the attack power.

--
Eric B. Smith http://www.geocities.com/ericbsmith
GURPS Data File Coordinator

We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you.
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 12:39:47 -0400, Roger Connor
<raconnor DeleteThis @email.unc.edu> wrote:

[...]
>My idea would be to create this as a weapon with deity focus such that
>anyone other than the specified weilder (dedication ceremony joining
>weilder to sword)cannot use it, and the weilder cannot if the deity
>determines a loss of faith. Otherwise, sword is a standard "fine"
>weapon, enchanted and powered with appropriate spells and dedicated via
>a clerical ritual as defined by the GM.

Then, I suggest an Innate Attack (modified as "melee attack" as
needed, as if it was a sword), with Accessibility "Needs Ceremonial
Sword" and some required advantages [True Faith, maybe] and/or
disadvantages [disciple of Faith above all, I'd say]. ^________^

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

On 27 Sep 2006 11:02:46 -0700, TypewriterLove <jmehmel.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

> One of those elements has been the notion of swords that can cut
> through anything. Without getting too far into a description of the
> setting, those weilding these blades use their own belief to give the
> swords a cutting edge at the atomic level.

What happens when one of these blades is used to block anouther?

--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes. Will set followups on crossposts of 3 of more
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:
> On 27 Sep 2006 11:02:46 -0700, TypewriterLove <jmehmel.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > One of those elements has been the notion of swords that can cut
> > through anything. Without getting too far into a description of the
> > setting, those weilding these blades use their own belief to give the
> > swords a cutting edge at the atomic level.
>
> What happens when one of these blades is used to block anouther?
>

The cinematic answer is that the blade is strong enough to repel the
attack, so that only a similar blade can usefully parry the attack.

Anybody know cool swordfighting rules?
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

On 4 Oct 2006 13:52:58 -0700, "TypewriterLove" <jmehmel RemoveThis @gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:
>> On 27 Sep 2006 11:02:46 -0700, TypewriterLove <jmehmel RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > One of those elements has been the notion of swords that can cut
>> > through anything. Without getting too far into a description of the
>> > setting, those weilding these blades use their own belief to give the
>> > swords a cutting edge at the atomic level.
>>
>> What happens when one of these blades is used to block anouther?
>>
>
>The cinematic answer is that the blade is strong enough to repel the
>attack, so that only a similar blade can usefully parry the attack.
>
>Anybody know cool swordfighting rules?

If you want to make combat more "fair"? I believe Fantasy 4e, has
rules regarding adamantium weapons treating all lesser weapons as
cheap (even very fine steal). Can't find the page ref. the index is
F*ed per usual!

For the powers... Buy the sword as signature gear with the weapon bond
perk. It is up to the GM to set either a $ or character point value on
these items. Fantasy p131 details sig. gear with magical properties.

I believe many ways to *cut through anything* and activation have been
suggested. What was not made clear by the OP or I missed it is can
this cut through anything be applied in combat?
--
Grant
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

On Wed, 04 Oct 2006 15:42:58 -0600, All hail Discordia
<wyrm_ksc.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 4 Oct 2006 13:52:58 -0700, "TypewriterLove" <jmehmel.TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:
>>> On 27 Sep 2006 11:02:46 -0700, TypewriterLove <jmehmel.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> > One of those elements has been the notion of swords that can cut
>>> > through anything. Without getting too far into a description of the
>>> > setting, those weilding these blades use their own belief to give the
>>> > swords a cutting edge at the atomic level.
>>>
>>> What happens when one of these blades is used to block anouther?
>>>
>>
>>The cinematic answer is that the blade is strong enough to repel the
>>attack, so that only a similar blade can usefully parry the attack.
>>
>>Anybody know cool swordfighting rules?
>
>If you want to make combat more "fair"? I believe Fantasy 4e, has
>rules regarding adamantium weapons treating all lesser weapons as
>cheap (even very fine steal). Can't find the page ref. the index is
>F*ed per usual!

Sorry that should be Orichalcum pg23 3 times the DR strength and HP of
Bronse. Steal weapons are treated as cheap when hit by and Orichalcum
one.

>
>For the powers... Buy the sword as signature gear with the weapon bond
>perk. It is up to the GM to set either a $ or character point value on
>these items. Fantasy p131 details sig. gear with magical properties.
>
>I believe many ways to *cut through anything* and activation have been
>suggested. What was not made clear by the OP or I missed it is can
>this cut through anything be applied in combat?

--
Grant
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

TypewriterLove wrote:
> David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus) wrote:
> > On 27 Sep 2006 11:02:46 -0700, TypewriterLove <jmehmel DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > One of those elements has been the notion of swords that can cut
> > > through anything. Without getting too far into a description of the
> > > setting, those weilding these blades use their own belief to give the
> > > swords a cutting edge at the atomic level.
> >
> > What happens when one of these blades is used to block anouther?
>
> The cinematic answer is that the blade is strong enough to repel the
> attack, so that only a similar blade can usefully parry the attack.

I don't see why these blades shouldn't cut through each other just
as easily as they cut through everything else, though. "So sharp
they can cut through everything" does not include "so tough they
can't be cut by something that can cut through everything." That's
a completely different ability, and is in fact the exact opposite of
what the swords are supposed to accomplish. You could certainly
change the flavor text to something along the lines of "those wielding
these blades use their own belief to make their swords absolutely
indestructible and to give them a cutting edge at the atomic level"
but that's a lot more powerful.

Hell, I don't see why a regular sword or tool shouldn't be able to
cut one of these swords. It all depends on exactly how the blades
are defined, I guess. Are the swords like real swords, where say
both edges are sharp but there's a flat portion that isn't sharp? Or
are they something like a monomolecular wire that's infinitely
sharp no matter what angle you approach it from? If they're
shaped like regular swords, then I still think regular weapons
should be able to parry them, if only at a penalty. And regular
weapons should be able to damage them as well, though again
a penalty would be reasonable to make sure you hit the
vulnerable flat and not the super-sharp edges.

Basically, it seems to me these swords should be a nifty tool
and not a guarantee of success. I like the idea of a swordsman
with one of these swords getting his clock cleaned by a
better swordsman with a regular sword. If the opponent's
Dodge is high enough, that could still easily happen, of course,
no matter how the swords are defined.

Pete



>
> Anybody know cool swordfighting rules?
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

On 5 Oct 2006 09:34:43 -0700, "Peter Meilinger"
<p_meilinger.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

[...]
>> The cinematic answer is that the blade is strong enough to repel the
>> attack, so that only a similar blade can usefully parry the attack.
>
>I don't see why these blades shouldn't cut through each other just
>as easily as they cut through everything else, though. "So sharp
>they can cut through everything" does not include "so tough they
>can't be cut by something that can cut through everything."

Realistically, yes.
In a fantasy and/or manga style, however, a "more powerful sword" will
not be cut by "a lesser sword". ^___^

[...]
>sharp no matter what angle you approach it from? If they're
>shaped like regular swords, then I still think regular weapons
>should be able to parry them, if only at a penalty. And regular
>weapons should be able to damage them as well, though again
>a penalty would be reasonable to make sure you hit the
>vulnerable flat and not the super-sharp edges.

Agreed! ^_______^

>Basically, it seems to me these swords should be a nifty tool
>and not a guarantee of success. I like the idea of a swordsman
>with one of these swords getting his clock cleaned by a
>better swordsman with a regular sword. If the opponent's
>Dodge is high enough, that could still easily happen, of course,
>no matter how the swords are defined.

Agreed, too!
Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

Korin Duval wrote:
> On 5 Oct 2006 09:34:43 -0700, "Peter Meilinger"
> <p_meilinger.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
> >> The cinematic answer is that the blade is strong enough to repel the
> >> attack, so that only a similar blade can usefully parry the attack.
> >
> >I don't see why these blades shouldn't cut through each other just
> >as easily as they cut through everything else, though. "So sharp
> >they can cut through everything" does not include "so tough they
> >can't be cut by something that can cut through everything."
>
> Realistically, yes.
> In a fantasy and/or manga style, however, a "more powerful sword" will
> not be cut by "a lesser sword". ^___^

In SOME fantasy and/or manga styles, I agree. Not in all of them.
And besides, who's to say these super-sharp swords are going up
against "lesser" swords? The swords their opponents use might
be just as powerful and special in their own ways, they just
don't have the super-sharp edge going for them.

I don't know. I get the idea of wanting a sword that can't be
parried or blocked, I just don't think the special effects as
described for this kind of sword meet the qualifications for
that kind of power.

Here's another thought that just occurred to me - does GURPS
still have special rules for force swords/lightsabers? Why not
just use those rules and say the mind/will/faith of the wielder
is what makes the swords act like force swords?

Pete
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

> > >> The cinematic answer is that the blade is strong enough to repel the
> > >> attack, so that only a similar blade can usefully parry the attack.
> > >
> > >I don't see why these blades shouldn't cut through each other just
> > >as easily as they cut through everything else, though. "So sharp
> > >they can cut through everything" does not include "so tough they
> > >can't be cut by something that can cut through everything."
> >
> > Realistically, yes.
> > In a fantasy and/or manga style, however, a "more powerful sword" will
> > not be cut by "a lesser sword". ^___^
>
> In SOME fantasy and/or manga styles, I agree. Not in all of them.
> And besides, who's to say these super-sharp swords are going up
> against "lesser" swords? The swords their opponents use might
> be just as powerful and special in their own ways, they just
> don't have the super-sharp edge going for them.
>
> I don't know. I get the idea of wanting a sword that can't be
> parried or blocked, I just don't think the special effects as
> described for this kind of sword meet the qualifications for
> that kind of power.
>
> Here's another thought that just occurred to me - does GURPS
> still have special rules for force swords/lightsabers? Why not
> just use those rules and say the mind/will/faith of the wielder
> is what makes the swords act like force swords?
>
> Pete


Story-wise, what appeals to me is the idea that these warriors are
given both attack and defense through faith. So to make the same sort
of faith that makes these blades so sharp, the likewise faith that
protects them, makes a thematic, if not rules-oriented, kind of sense.
I'm trying to twist the rules into my concept, which means tweaking
things to fit.

I had considered using the rules for force-swords; I guess the main
difference is that this blade is something physical that is given
unnatural ability, instead of a blade of energy. Also, this physical
blade is given that ability through the perfect faith of the wielder.
So what sorts of extra rules or variants do you think that might cause
within the force-sword rules?
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

TypewriterLove wrote:

> > I don't know. I get the idea of wanting a sword that can't be
> > parried or blocked, I just don't think the special effects as
> > described for this kind of sword meet the qualifications for
> > that kind of power.
> >
> > Here's another thought that just occurred to me - does GURPS
> > still have special rules for force swords/lightsabers? Why not
> > just use those rules and say the mind/will/faith of the wielder
> > is what makes the swords act like force swords?

>
> Story-wise, what appeals to me is the idea that these warriors are
> given both attack and defense through faith. So to make the same sort
> of faith that makes these blades so sharp, the likewise faith that
> protects them, makes a thematic, if not rules-oriented, kind of sense.
> I'm trying to twist the rules into my concept, which means tweaking
> things to fit.

Okay, I get that. But does the defense also manifest through the
sword? And how, exactly? Can they parry any attack with the
swords, even if they shouldn't really be able to? That could be
a good special effect for a force field type power.

But what happens when two people with these swords go after
each other? The unstoppable force meets the immovable object,
but however you rule you're going against your concept. Either
the attacking blade cuts through the defending one, in which
case the defense isn't perfect, or the defending sword parries
the attacking one, in which case the swords can't actually
cut through everything.

> I had considered using the rules for force-swords; I guess the main
> difference is that this blade is something physical that is given
> unnatural ability, instead of a blade of energy. Also, this physical
> blade is given that ability through the perfect faith of the wielder.
> So what sorts of extra rules or variants do you think that might cause
> within the force-sword rules?

Honestly? I'd just wave my hands and say, "Poof! These swords act
like force swords, even though they appear to be normal physical
swords." This would work especially well if actual force swords
don't exist in the campaign. All you have to do is 'port the rules
over and change the flavor text to suit your taste. If actual force
swords do exist in the campaign, you should definitely differentiate
between the two. If they don't, though, I don't see any reason to
change the rules if they give the effect you're looking for.

I'm more interested in how you're going to rule if the character's
faith is "perfect" enough to achieve the desired effect. Talk
about subjective rules.

Pete
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts...