Sword design thoughts...

TypewriterLove wrote:

> So, in terms of GURPS-ification, how would you imply the damage of an
> ultimately cutting edge? (And if the sharpness of this edge is defined
> by the level of belief in the weilder, could that belief be represented
> as an advantage or skill?

In GURPS terms, simply having a sharp cutting edge does no extra
damage. The edge is just far better at getting through defenses.
This is the Armor Divisor enhancement (BASIC 102). The ability
to do this wouldn't be a skill, but a limitation on the Innate
Attack gadget (sword). In detail:

Innate Attack: 2 imp. [16] (Meelee Attack Reach 1 -25%, Meelee
Attack: ST-Based +100%, Thrust Only -50%, Breakable: DR 6 -10%,
Breakable: SM -6 -10%, Can be Stolen: Contest -30%) [16*.75=12]

Alternate Innate Attack: 1 cut (Meelee Attack Reach 1 -25%,
Meelee Attack: ST-Based +100%, Breakable: DR 6 -10%, Breakable:
SM -6 -10%, Can be Stolen: Contest -30%) [7*1.25/5=1.25]

Result: Thrusting Broadsword Attack [14], sw+1 cut, thr+2 imp.,
reach 1, 3 lbs. metal (DR 6, 12 HP), 4" wide blade(SM -6)

Adding Armor Divisor: (10) makes the above broadsword worth an
even 50 points. If the ability to make use of the armor divisor
isn't universal, there would be an additional limitation (and
reduced point cost) depending on how rare the ability is.

--
Jefferson
http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

TypewriterLove wrote:
> Jefferson wrote:
>
> >
> > In GURPS terms, simply having a sharp cutting edge does no extra
> > damage. The edge is just far better at getting through defenses.
>
> I guess what I'm trying to describe is something that could chop
> straight through just about anything with no resistance, at least along
> it's edge. So wouldn't the ability to bisect somebody with little
> effort translate into a bit of boost in damage?
>
>
> > This is the Armor Divisor enhancement (BASIC 102). The ability
> > to do this wouldn't be a skill, but a limitation on the Innate
> > Attack gadget (sword). In detail:
> >
> > Innate Attack: 2 imp. [16] (Meelee Attack Reach 1 -25%, Meelee
> > Attack: ST-Based +100%, Thrust Only -50%, Breakable: DR 6 -10%,
> > Breakable: SM -6 -10%, Can be Stolen: Contest -30%) [16*.75=12]
> >
> > Alternate Innate Attack: 1 cut (Meelee Attack Reach 1 -25%,
> > Meelee Attack: ST-Based +100%, Breakable: DR 6 -10%, Breakable:
> > SM -6 -10%, Can be Stolen: Contest -30%) [7*1.25/5=1.25]
> >
> > Result: Thrusting Broadsword Attack [14], sw+1 cut, thr+2 imp.,
> > reach 1, 3 lbs. metal (DR 6, 12 HP), 4" wide blade(SM -6)
> >
> > Adding Armor Divisor: (10) makes the above broadsword worth an
> > even 50 points. If the ability to make use of the armor divisor
> > isn't universal, there would be an additional limitation (and
> > reduced point cost) depending on how rare the ability is.
> >
>
> I don't have my books, and I'm still a bit loose on the lingo regarding
> what you've layed out here, (as a bit of a newbie to the game system)
> but it seems as though this would not be so much of an armour DIVISOR,
> as an armour NEGATOR. Essentially, if the opponent doesn't parry with
> an equal blade, and the attack is successfull, whatever body part is
> hit is either severed or gouged entirely.
>
> It might seem a bit game-unbalancing, but it's for a specific group of
> people, almost a 'character-class' who have access to these blades, and
> it is their individual belief (in the religion of the setting) that
> makes the swords quantum-sharp, not the blade itself. Which is why I'm
> considering this ability to be %100 sucessfull quality of the sword...

We played around with weapons design in Chaosum Runequest & decided
that only
SWORDS could recieve weapons plusses as opposed to Mauls since only
Swords could
recieve FINE crafting but mauls being thicker had more HIT POINTS.
COST for FINE
swords went up QUICKLY but only the materials the maul was cast from
raised cost.
((This was really a PC vs Trolls argument since many PC's used swords &
Trolls used Mauls))
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

I guess more details are called for... each of these swords are
specific to each user. They are made and developed individually, and
exist as a focus and a visualizing assistance for the belief of that
individual. Uniquely crafted weapons for a sort of 'warrior-monk'
class. In terms of the setting; the blade and the power go hand in
hand; yet it is the faith of the owner that gives the blade it's edge.

So: it is a uniquely crafted weapon, but the power is in the owner.
Also, based on the disciplines of the faith, they can't give this
ability to any object; it has to be the same sword they began with. (At
the very least, using a new sword would probably require at least a
couple weeks of getting used to this new focus for your faith.)

As for the notion of this faith-power being applied to things beyond
the blade... that's actually one of the story threads. So far, FTL
travel is also faith-powered! I'm not sure how far to go with it, since
I don't want to unbalance both the setting itself, as a work of
fiction, and the setting as a game.



> >
> > But on what is the +600% applied? It's a piece of equipment, like a
> > magic weapon or an AK-47.
>
> An attack like this could easily be built using a Cutting Attack, ST-Based,
> with Gadget limitations. Given it's very powerful and magical nature it
> might be best to do so - though that's definately a GM call. Also, the post
> I was replied to was in reply to Jefferson's, which described how to build
> such an attack under Innate Attack.
>
> If you're just treating it as a piece of equipment 1) there's no need to
> model it by "creating" it, just give it the stats you want and 2) it cost as
> much money as you say it does. But it sounded to me he more wanted to model
> it as a power than treat it as a piece of equipment.
>
> > Unless the user can do this with any weapon,
> > and not just a very specific type of magic weapon.
>
> It doesn't matter whether it requires a weapon (any weapon) as a focus, a
> specific class of "magical" weapons, or one particular weapon, it can still
> be modeled using Innate Attack. The main difference is whether it has
> "Accessibility: Must use mundane weapon as focus" or a set of Gadget
> limitations (possibly including Unique and Can Be Stolen).
>
> --
> Eric B. Smith http://www.geocities.com/ericbsmith
> GURPS Data File Coordinator
>
> "The English never draw a line without blurring it." - Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

TypewriterLove wrote:

> I guess more details are called for... each of these swords are
> specific to each user. They are made and developed individually, and
> exist as a focus and a visualizing assistance for the belief of that
> individual. Uniquely crafted weapons for a sort of 'warrior-monk'
> class. In terms of the setting; the blade and the power go hand in
> hand; yet it is the faith of the owner that gives the blade it's edge.

In designing the ability in GURPS the source of the ability
doesn't matter all that much. If the sword can be stolen or
broken, you're best off developing the ability as a gadget, even
if the vast majority of the ability is personal to the user.
What matters is that the user can't use the ability if the sword
is broken or stolen.

However, it might be a good idea to purchase the basic qualities
of the weapon, the stuff that anyone can get for cash, as
Signature Gear. The point value of the Signature Gear can then
be subtracted from the overall value of the ability to get the
point cost to the character.

--
Jefferson
http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

TypewriterLove <jmehmel.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> One of those elements has been the notion of swords that can cut
> through anything. Without getting too far into a description of the
> setting, those weilding these blades use their own belief to give the
> swords a cutting edge at the atomic level.

A monomolecular edge does not mean you'll automatically cut through
anything. I believe it does mean that in GURPS 3e canon, but it's
wrong: to cut, you at least need to sever the molecular bonds in the
material you're cutting, and the material you're cutting with is held
together by very similar molecular bonds. Monomolecular wire will
probably break when you try to cut solid steel, unless you're really
careful about it.

> (I'll stop describing there, {though feel free to ask more questions}
> and I hope we can leave aside the worry of splitting atoms and causing
> nuclear eruptions with every sword-stroke. I'm working more with the
> poetry of the concept then the physics of it.)

Then forget about the "atomic level", and just call it magic.

> So, in terms of GURPS-ification, how would you imply the damage of an
> ultimately cutting edge? (And if the sharpness of this edge is defined
> by the level of belief in the weilder, could that belief be represented
> as an advantage or skill?

Sounds like an advantage. You could, like others in this thread have
done, model the whole thing in GURPS Powers style, but the actual
magic here is in the sword itself, right? Everybody has a level of
belief, and these swords are just affected by it, as might many other
items.

Since regular magic and non-magic items are not reflected in advantages
for its owner, I think the actual cutting ability in this case shouldn't
be either. Yet the sword is more useful in the hands of a strong
believer than in the hands of a doubter. That's an advantage, but how
to model it? If these swords are very rare, it's kinda silly to charge
everybody extra points for their belief, but if they're common, then
believers have a significant advantage over non-believers.

It would be easiest if belief did more than just this. Maybe it works
for other magic too: healing magic might be more powerful for believers
than for non-believers. Then there's clearly an advantage. Or maybe
there is a balancing disadvantage: negative magic may also be more
effective against believers, or some weapons are particularly effective
against believers, or maybe technology works better in the hands of
non-believers. Then it balances out, and you can treat it as a 0 pt or
maybe a 1 pt feature.


mcv.
--
Science is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. It's a tool.
A very powerful tool, but not the only tool. And if only that which
could be verified scientifically was considered real, then nearly all
of human experience would be not-real. -- Zachriel
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

Eric B. Smith <smithericb RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> Eric B. Smith banged his head on the keyboard resulting in:
>> That can be accomplished with Cosmic: No DR, +300% on p. B103. The
>> part about only being parryable with an equal blade would also
>> qualify for Cosmic: No Active Defense, +300%.
>
>
>> Since it can also be
>> used to Parry other such Cosmic attacks it qualifies as a Cosmic
>> Power, +50%.
>
> Let me rephrase that bit - it counts as being a Cosmic Power for free - that
> is, it's built into the +600% from the other two Cosmic modifiers above.

But on what is the +600% applied? It's a piece of equipment, like a
magic weapon or an AK-47. Unless the user can do this with any weapon,
and not just a very specific type of magic weapon.


mcv.
--
Science is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. It's a tool.
A very powerful tool, but not the only tool. And if only that which
could be verified scientifically was considered real, then nearly all
of human experience would be not-real. -- Zachriel
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

On 27 Sep 2006 11:02:46 -0700, "TypewriterLove" <jmehmel.RemoveThis@gmail.com>
wrote:

[...]
>So, in terms of GURPS-ification, how would you imply the damage of an
>ultimately cutting edge? (And if the sharpness of this edge is defined
>by the level of belief in the weilder, could that belief be represented
>as an advantage or skill?

Method 1) If it's an artifact or something, just assume it does
infinite damage, according to the situation.

Against an opponent, it would score automatic decapitation,
amputations, and so on.

Against items not bigger than the sword's lenght, it goes for
automatic cuts.

Against items bigger than that, it scores [(Thrust+3)x3] damage
(unless amorphous or otherwise cutting-resistant conditions).

Method 2) If it depends on the wielder's faith, it could do a number
of dice of damage equals to a multiplier of wielder's will, modified
by advantages or disadvantages as GM feels.

Method 3) If it is designed as a power, just give it a ludicrous
amount of damage dice (cutting) with a huge Armor Divisor, and Can Be
Stolen as well.

Just my 2 Eurocent.

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

TypewriterLove banged his head on the keyboard resulting in:
> I don't have my books, and I'm still a bit loose on the lingo
> regarding what you've layed out here, (as a bit of a newbie to the
> game system) but it seems as though this would not be so much of an
> armour DIVISOR, as an armour NEGATOR. Essentially, if the opponent
> doesn't parry with an equal blade, and the attack is successfull,
> whatever body part is hit is either severed or gouged entirely.

That can be accomplished with Cosmic: No DR, +300% on p. B103. The part
about only being parryable with an equal blade would also qualify for
Cosmic: No Active Defense, +300%. Since it can also be used to Parry other
such Cosmic attacks it qualifies as a Cosmic Power, +50%. As for lopping off
limbs easily, that's just a really high base damage.


Yes, this is going to get expensive.


--
Eric B. Smith http://www.geocities.com/ericbsmith
GURPS Data File Coordinator

"The English never draw a line without blurring it." - Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

Eric B. Smith banged his head on the keyboard resulting in:
> That can be accomplished with Cosmic: No DR, +300% on p. B103. The
> part about only being parryable with an equal blade would also
> qualify for Cosmic: No Active Defense, +300%.


> Since it can also be
> used to Parry other such Cosmic attacks it qualifies as a Cosmic
> Power, +50%.

Let me rephrase that bit - it counts as being a Cosmic Power for free - that
is, it's built into the +600% from the other two Cosmic modifiers above.


--
Eric B. Smith http://www.geocities.com/ericbsmith
GURPS Data File Coordinator

"The English never draw a line without blurring it." - Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

mcv banged his head on the keyboard resulting in:
> Eric B. Smith <smithericb DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Eric B. Smith banged his head on the keyboard resulting in:
>>> That can be accomplished with Cosmic: No DR, +300% on p. B103. The
>>> part about only being parryable with an equal blade would also
>>> qualify for Cosmic: No Active Defense, +300%.
>>
>>
>>> Since it can also be
>>> used to Parry other such Cosmic attacks it qualifies as a Cosmic
>>> Power, +50%.
>>
>> Let me rephrase that bit - it counts as being a Cosmic Power for
>> free - that is, it's built into the +600% from the other two Cosmic
>> modifiers above.
>
> But on what is the +600% applied? It's a piece of equipment, like a
> magic weapon or an AK-47.

An attack like this could easily be built using a Cutting Attack, ST-Based,
with Gadget limitations. Given it's very powerful and magical nature it
might be best to do so - though that's definately a GM call. Also, the post
I was replied to was in reply to Jefferson's, which described how to build
such an attack under Innate Attack.

If you're just treating it as a piece of equipment 1) there's no need to
model it by "creating" it, just give it the stats you want and 2) it cost as
much money as you say it does. But it sounded to me he more wanted to model
it as a power than treat it as a piece of equipment.

> Unless the user can do this with any weapon,
> and not just a very specific type of magic weapon.

It doesn't matter whether it requires a weapon (any weapon) as a focus, a
specific class of "magical" weapons, or one particular weapon, it can still
be modeled using Innate Attack. The main difference is whether it has
"Accessibility: Must use mundane weapon as focus" or a set of Gadget
limitations (possibly including Unique and Can Be Stolen).

--
Eric B. Smith http://www.geocities.com/ericbsmith
GURPS Data File Coordinator

"The English never draw a line without blurring it." - Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

TypewriterLove banged his head on the keyboard resulting in:
> I guess more details are called for... each of these swords are
> specific to each user. They are made and developed individually, and
> exist as a focus and a visualizing assistance for the belief of that
> individual. Uniquely crafted weapons for a sort of 'warrior-monk'
> class. In terms of the setting; the blade and the power go hand in
> hand; yet it is the faith of the owner that gives the blade it's edge.
>
> So: it is a uniquely crafted weapon, but the power is in the owner.
> Also, based on the disciplines of the faith, they can't give this
> ability to any object; it has to be the same sword they began with.
> (At the very least, using a new sword would probably require at least
> a couple weeks of getting used to this new focus for your faith.)
>
> As for the notion of this faith-power being applied to things beyond
> the blade... that's actually one of the story threads. So far, FTL
> travel is also faith-powered! I'm not sure how far to go with it,
> since I don't want to unbalance both the setting itself, as a work of
> fiction, and the setting as a game.

As Jefferson said, if the power is innate in the user then Innate Attack is
definatley the way to go, with appropriate Gadget limitations. This one
sounds like it has Can Be Stolen, but cannot be used by the thief (reducing
the limitation value by 1/2). Since the user can "refocus" on another weapon
it wouldn't qualify for Unique.

As I mentioned, Cosmic: No DR and Cosmic: No Defense allow you to slice
through any armor and prevents the weapon from being parried by all but
another cosmic weapon. You might consider reducing the cost of No Defense if
the target can Dodge the attack - since Block and Parry are usually the
better defenses this should only reduce the cost to +250% instead of the
+300% for absolutely no defense roll.

You also mention a Disciplines of Faith - does the user lose the use of this
ability if they transgress their DoF? If so this would also qualify it for a
Pact limitation.


--
Eric B. Smith http://www.geocities.com/ericbsmith
GURPS Data File Coordinator

A: It interrupts the natural flow of conversation.
> Q: How do you feel about top posting?
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

Eric B. Smith wrote:
> That can be accomplished with Cosmic: No DR, +300% on p. B103. The part
> about only being parryable with an equal blade would also qualify for
> Cosmic: No Active Defense, +300%. Since it can also be used to Parry other
> such Cosmic attacks it qualifies as a Cosmic Power, +50%. As for lopping off
> limbs easily, that's just a really high base damage.
>
>
> Yes, this is going to get expensive.

IIRC, lopping a limb off requires you to inflict damage upon the target
equal to or exceeding a certain multiple of the target's hit points. And
of course you must hit a limb hit location.

So wouldn't there be some point where it becomes cheaper to have the
Advantage (item or innate ability or whatever) cause the target to
function as if he had reduced hit points, only for the purpose of
determining extremity damage?


IIRC (2nd time), 1d6 damage has a base cost of 5 CPs, but with Cosmic
+300% (No DR) we're up at each 1d6 damage costing 20 CPs. 7d6 damage (No
DR) thus costs 140 CPs.

Could one achieve a comparable effect with a 5d6 Cosmic Damage (No dR),
and then use the last 40 CPs to somehow lower the target's hit points so
that it requires less damage to chop off limbs, and possibly also to
cripple the target's limbs? The resulting power, costing the same 140
CPs as the above power, might be more efficient for the intended purpose...

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts... 

Eric B. Smith wrote:
> An attack like this could easily be built using a Cutting Attack, ST-Based,
> with Gadget limitations. Given it's very powerful and magical nature it
> might be best to do so - though that's definately a GM call. Also, the post
> I was replied to was in reply to Jefferson's, which described how to build
> such an attack under Innate Attack.
>
> If you're just treating it as a piece of equipment 1) there's no need to
> model it by "creating" it, just give it the stats you want and 2) it cost as
> much money as you say it does. But it sounded to me he more wanted to model
> it as a power than treat it as a piece of equipment.

To me, it sounds a bit as if the OP wants to be able to model the
requirement for such super-sharp swords, which is a very variant kind of
True Faith. For all I know, the OP intends such super-sharp swords to be
manufacturable by some very simple industrial process.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Sword design thoughts...