Sudden Spoiling

On 23 Oct 2006 13:07:04 -0700, eelrix.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com <eelrix.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>A swamp enchanted with Genju of the Fens is activated and becomes a 2/2
>creature;

Um. You mean "has the Genju's activated ability used and becomes", right?

>if that player is targeted with Sudden Spoiling, can he spend
>2 more mana and make it a 2/2 creature again (with the ability to pump
>it for black mana now restored)?

Sudden Spoiling 1BB Instant
Split second (*) Creatures target player controls become 0/2 and lose all
abilities until end of turn.

Genju of the Fens B Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Swamp 2: Until end of turn, enchanted Swamp becomes a 2/2 black
Spirit creature with "B: This creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn." It's
still a land. / When enchanted Swamp is put into a graveyard, you may return
Genju of the Fens from your graveyard to your hand.

To answer the last question first, no, this would NOT be able to restore the
Swamp's innate "Tap: Add B to your mana pool." ability. Genju of the Fens
does NOT say it adds that ability to Swamps; Sudden Spoiling says the creature
loses _all_ abilities. So using the Genju again wouldn't do anything to give
back the lost mana ability; it doesn't 'turn it into a swamp again and give it
the ability because swamps have the ability' or anything like that.

The question about the +1/+1-adding granted ability is a little less simple to
answer.

>It would seem to me that the activated ability to turn the swamp into a
>creature is on the enchantment itself, not the creature and thus
>wouldn't be neutralized by Sudden Spoiling.

Right, so could be used again after SS resolves. (Using it in response isn't
possible because of the Split Second.)

The question then becomes "where in the timestamp/dependency/layer structure
would the ability given to the swamp by that second use fall, compared to the
'loses all abilities' from Sudden Spoiling" [as well as 'where does the new
"it's 2/2" fall relative to the 'it becomes 0/2'?']. So we dive into the
intricacies of 418.5 .

First, note that none of these is a 'characteristic-setting ability', because
none of them sets the value of characteristics _on itself_ to particular
values. So the 'apply c-sa stuff first' is irrelevant.

Genju of the Fens makes the swamp 2/2, black, a Spirit, a creature, and gives
it an activated ability. Sudden Spoiling makes it 0/2 and removes its
abilities. None of this copies, controls, or changes text. Genju uses layer
4 for "Spirit" and "creature". Both use 6 for the 'is 0/2 or 2/2'; more
specifically, 6b. And both use 5 - Genju for 'is black' and 'gets this
ability', and SS for 'loses all abilities'.

Is there any dependency? No for the Genju's activated ability, since it's
a resolving effect and modifies characteristics. And no for SS, since it's a
resolving spell that modifies characteristics.

So timestamp order within the (sub)layers rules, here. So yes, the second
use of the Genju ability makes the swamp 2/2 again and gives it an unsuppressed
instance of the activated ability, which then could be used to pump the
p/t of the Swamp creature (6b again, still timestamped after the SS's effect).

>I gather that regular creature enchantments give their abilities (like
>flying and untargetability from opponent's spells and abilities) to the
>creature itself and those abilities would indeed be removed from an
>enchanted creature if that player was the target of a Sudden Spoiling.

Yep. You have to notice whether it says "Enchanted creature has 'Blah'", or
just says "Blah". The former is given to the creature; the latter is an
ability of the Aura. (The former is an ability of the Aura that's -giving-
an ability to the creature, if you want to be perfectly accurate.)

Dave
--
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