Student Pilot Unable to Cope

donbutts wrote:
> Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that
> student pilots on solo flights be identified by a radio call-sign prefix so
> air traffic controllers can take into account their limited experience and
> knowledge. The recommendation came from the investigation of a crash on July
> 19, 2006, that killed a 16-year-old student who had logged 15 hours and was
> on his second solo flight. Just before he touched down at Southend Airport,
> a controller ordered him to turn left and climb to pattern height so an
> overtaking Piper Meridian could land. It's believed he did not reconfigure
> the aircraft and apply enough power for the unorthodox go-around and the
> Cessna he was flying stalled and crashed a short time later.


Just the fact that he was flying a C-150 should have suggested he probably
wasn't going to be able to fly to ATP standards. But I'd have to say the poor
slob just screwed the pooch on this one. Go-arounds should have been pounded
into his head before he was allowed to solo the first time. I know we did them
VERY regularly.

I don't mean to be overly critical but the ATC request wasn't very demanding.
Nor should it have been much of a surprise as I'd imagine little Cessna trainers
get overtaken all the time at controlled airfields the world over. Just the
nature of the beast....




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

In 35 years of flying I have never been asked to 'go around' because of an
overtaking aircraft. Either I am asked to keep my speed up, or the plane
behind me is asked to slow down. Once you are cleared to land, you own the
runway unless an emergency developes.

Yes, the pilot hosed it, and at the same time I hope that controller gets
his ass handed to him.
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

On Jul 17, 6:23 am, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com>
wrote:

>
> Just the fact that he was flying a C-150 should have suggested he probably
> wasn't going to be able to fly to ATP standards. But I'd have to say the poor
> slob just screwed the pooch on this one.
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

you make a good point, but please, be more respectful, he was only 16
years old
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

raamman DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 17, 6:23 am, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Just the fact that he was flying a C-150 should have suggested he
>> probably wasn't going to be able to fly to ATP standards. But I'd
>> have to say the poor slob just screwed the pooch on this one.
>> --
>> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
>
> you make a good point, but please, be more respectful, he was only 16
> years old

So it'd been ok if the pilot was 26? 36? 46? Doesn't matter, he was old
enough to be flying solo, and the CFI should be taking a hard look at his
preping - the manuever was about as basic as it could get.. What if he
hadn't had someone tell him to go around, but simply had something
unexpected happen, runway incursion, sudden crosswind, etc., he should have
been capable of an aborted landing, especially with flaps.... Just MHO...
It's sad when anybody loses their life, but.............
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

raamman DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
>> Just the fact that he was flying a C-150 should have suggested he probably
>> wasn't going to be able to fly to ATP standards. But I'd have to say the
>> poor slob just screwed the pooch on this one.
>
> you make a good point, but please, be more respectful, he was only 16
> years old



Age has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing previously done in life
prepares you for flying. Being a good cook, or a respected doctor, or even a
experienced race car driver isn't going to automatically translate into great
pilot. Average reflexes, average intelligence are needed. Then somebody has to
teach you how to do things.

Along the way you can pick up judgement from reading and hearing stories, by
getting burned a few times yourself and learning the hard way, etc. Nobody gets
a walk on the process because of their age, excess of it, or lack of it. It has
to be done by all.

The poor slob in the story didn't get far enough along to enjoy the benefits of
experience. But that wasn't because he was young; it was because he was new.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

>Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that
student pilots on solo flights be identified by a radio call-sign prefix so
air traffic controllers can take into account their limited experience and
knowledge.
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Investigators_Say_Student_Pilots_...uld_Be_

The article wasn't written solely about the 16 y/o student pilot. Its
words reflect student pilots of all ages.

"Limited experience AND knowledge." Didn't we all discuss something that
parallels this in another thread a few days ago?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWC2XJYgcJU
That pilot deliberately exceeded the maximum load out for that aircraft.
Arrogance and stupidity can kill you.

People ought to be glad planes are so expensive, otherwise there would be
more synchronicities!

)

"donbutts" <remove.donneybutts.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:owZmi.83253$aP2.61509@newsfe16.lga...
>
>
> This is a sad but interesting article.....
>
> (Butts)
>
> Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
>
> Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that
> student pilots on solo flights be identified by a radio call-sign prefix
> so air traffic controllers can take into account their limited experience
> and knowledge. The recommendation came from the investigation of a crash
> on July 19, 2006, that killed a 16-year-old student who had logged 15
> hours and was on his second solo flight. Just before he touched down at
> Southend Airport, a controller ordered him to turn left and climb to
> pattern height so an overtaking Piper Meridian could land. It's believed
> he did not reconfigure the aircraft and apply enough power for the
> unorthodox go-around and the Cessna he was flying stalled and crashed a
> short time later. The four-person investigation team concluded pilot Sam
> Cross was put "in a situation for which his training and experience had
> not prepared him" after being "instructed to carry out an unfamiliar and
> nonstandard manoeuvre," the AAIB report said. Adding to the mix was the
> fact that Cross was returning to the field after just eight minutes in the
> air because haze was reducing visibility. His instructor was watching from
> the ground as the order to deviate from the runway heading was complied
> with and he noted the nose-up attitude of the Cessna before it stalled and
> spiralled into a park. Investigators determined the flaps were at 20
> degrees, the carb heat was on and the engine was turning at 900 rpm at the
> time of the crash. Cross was the youngest pilot ever to be killed in a
> plane crash in Britain.
>
>
>



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 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

<raamman DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> you make a good point, but please, be more respectful, he was only 16
> years old

Okay then I'll say it: if most 16 year olds aren't mature enough to operate
a car responsibley, why allow them to fly a plane solo?

This may sound harsh, but it's just my opinion.

I don't trust a 16 year old behind the wheel of a car, much less at the
controls of an aircraft. Even 18 year olds aren't mature enough where
I'm from.

Anyone know what the minimum age is for flying lessons?


Marcel
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

Loek wrote:
> I agree with the callsign prefix, but there is more to it in my opinion. For
> instance, when does one have "sufficient hours i.e. experience"? That
> differs per person. Continuity (mentioned a while ago in this group) is
> another item to look at in a very careful way. And yet another item I would
> have liked to take a look at, is the syllabus the young pilot went through
> before going solo without saying it was insufficient! I don't know because I
> was not there.


It means nothing but here are my thoughts, from remembering my 1st solo
in a TH-55. I had 13 hours total time and I had only been able to hover
safely for the preceding 8 hours. I think if the IP's had waited until
they were sure we could handle a new and unexpected problem/event we
would have not soloed until around 30 hours or so. It's a confidence
builder. We can fly that pattern from rote memory and mechanical
response. If tower had told me to deviate during that solo, well I know
I'd be worried just trying to figure out what exactly they wanted me to
do. If I had never seen the maneuver, like a short pattern turn, I may
even do more thinking than flying. I feel I can see it happening on my
first solo. On that circuit I actually did not react mechanically. I was
so excited to be alone I forgot to stop climbing when I turned downwind.
Finally I looked at the stage field (stagefield = big concrete square
with 6 separate lanes using both left and right traffic) I noticed it
looked much smaller than I remembered. Then I noticed my altitude. I
turned base and flew final with the collective full down and it was a
bit steep. My IP climbed back in and never mentioned a thing. Boy was I
proud.

There were problems though. In the TH-55 you have to increase or
decrease the throttle when lifting or lowering the collective to
maintain a steady RPM. There is an overspeed governor that kicks in
about 300 RPM over the required RPM and the governor will literally
"kick" the engine RPM back down. When it happens to someone when they
pick up to a hover on their first solo it looks like a rodeo ride. In
fact, it looks a lot like that civilian Hughes 269 video we've seen
where the owner leaves the ground unexpectedly and crashes his aircraft.
Luckily my classmates had at least a minimum knowledge of what to do
and all landed safely. They didn't solo that day though.

boB
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

Hi Don,
When I was doing my flight training, my instructor had me add "Student
Pilot" to the end of all of my ATC radio calls - i.e. "Boise Approach,
Cessna 1234 Romeo Lima 10 miles west at 5 thousand, inbound to land with
Romeo. Student Pilot". It gave ATC a heads-up on the fact that I wasn't a
licensed pilot yet6. Then, on the day that I did my 1st solo, my instructor
called the control tower by land-line and informed them that it was my first
solo, and the aircraft tail number that I was flying. I always thought that
this was a great idea. I also think it would be a good idea to adopt this
practice for everyone. It is a good idea for the student pilot, a good idea
for the controllers, and a good idea for all of the other traffic that is
sharing the airspace. Take care...

Randy L.
--
My Personal Mission Statement:
"To provide on-time quality orientated
solutions for customer based top-down
non-mission critical enterprise, and to
maximize leveraged networks of optimized
real-time programs for both corporeal and non-
corporeal advanced mission-critical quality
orientated systems."

"donbutts" <remove.donneybutts.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:owZmi.83253$aP2.61509@newsfe16.lga...
>
>
> This is a sad but interesting article.....
>
> (Butts)
>
> Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
>
> Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that
> student pilots on solo flights be identified by a radio call-sign prefix
> so air traffic controllers can take into account their limited experience
> and knowledge. The recommendation came from the investigation of a crash
> on July 19, 2006, that killed a 16-year-old student who had logged 15
> hours and was on his second solo flight. Just before he touched down at
> Southend Airport, a controller ordered him to turn left and climb to
> pattern height so an overtaking Piper Meridian could land. It's believed
> he did not reconfigure the aircraft and apply enough power for the
> unorthodox go-around and the Cessna he was flying stalled and crashed a
> short time later. The four-person investigation team concluded pilot Sam
> Cross was put "in a situation for which his training and experience had
> not prepared him" after being "instructed to carry out an unfamiliar and
> nonstandard manoeuvre," the AAIB report said. Adding to the mix was the
> fact that Cross was returning to the field after just eight minutes in the
> air because haze was reducing visibility. His instructor was watching from
> the ground as the order to deviate from the runway heading was complied
> with and he noted the nose-up attitude of the Cessna before it stalled and
> spiralled into a park. Investigators determined the flaps were at 20
> degrees, the carb heat was on and the engine was turning at 900 rpm at the
> time of the crash. Cross was the youngest pilot ever to be killed in a
> plane crash in Britain.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

enigma wrote:
> Arrogance and stupidity can kill you.
>


And you're still here, amazing!!!!!
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

"RandyL" <rlink DeleteThis @cableone.net> wrote in message
news:139qp9221nin0cd@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Don,
> When I was doing my flight training, my instructor had me add "Student
> Pilot" to the end of all of my ATC radio calls - i.e. "Boise Approach,
> Cessna 1234 Romeo Lima 10 miles west at 5 thousand, inbound to land with
> Romeo. Student Pilot". It gave ATC a heads-up on the fact that I wasn't a
> licensed pilot yet6. Then, on the day that I did my 1st solo, my
> instructor called the control tower by land-line and informed them that it
> was my first solo, and the aircraft tail number that I was flying. I
> always thought that this was a great idea. I also think it would be a good
> idea to adopt this practice for everyone. It is a good idea for the
> student pilot, a good idea for the controllers, and a good idea for all of
> the other traffic that is sharing the airspace. Take care...
>
> Randy L.

I think that was more or less inferred or suggested in the article Randy.
Perhaps the call sign alone could be altered so theres no doubt that
inexperience is involved. ie Boise Approach Cessna 1234 Romeo Lima, Solo
Student, 10 miles west...etc

Don
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

Just before touching down? Sounds like he had already been cleared to land!
Why wasn't the overtaking a/c told to slow down? The a/c being overtaken
ALWAYS has right of way anyway!
"Turn left and climb to pattern height"? That's not a standard go-around
anyway! Should have been told to step to the right of the strip and climb to
pattern height, then turn left as per normal pattern procedures.
In any case, it sounds to me like the student pilot panicked somewhat and
pulled the nose up too abruptly, and bit the big one. It's sad, but I think
the atc has a bit of explaining to do, if this is indeed the whole story.
Crash Lander

--
http://straightandlevel1973.spaces.live.com/
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong!
"donbutts" <remove.donneybutts.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:owZmi.83253$aP2.61509@newsfe16.lga...
>
>
> This is a sad but interesting article.....
>
> (Butts)
>
> Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged
>
> Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that
> student pilots on solo flights be identified by a radio call-sign prefix
> so air traffic controllers can take into account their limited experience
> and knowledge. The recommendation came from the investigation of a crash
> on July 19, 2006, that killed a 16-year-old student who had logged 15
> hours and was on his second solo flight. Just before he touched down at
> Southend Airport, a controller ordered him to turn left and climb to
> pattern height so an overtaking Piper Meridian could land. It's believed
> he did not reconfigure the aircraft and apply enough power for the
> unorthodox go-around and the Cessna he was flying stalled and crashed a
> short time later. The four-person investigation team concluded pilot Sam
> Cross was put "in a situation for which his training and experience had
> not prepared him" after being "instructed to carry out an unfamiliar and
> nonstandard manoeuvre," the AAIB report said. Adding to the mix was the
> fact that Cross was returning to the field after just eight minutes in the
> air because haze was reducing visibility. His instructor was watching from
> the ground as the order to deviate from the runway heading was complied
> with and he noted the nose-up attitude of the Cessna before it stalled and
> spiralled into a park. Investigators determined the flaps were at 20
> degrees, the carb heat was on and the engine was turning at 900 rpm at the
> time of the crash. Cross was the youngest pilot ever to be killed in a
> plane crash in Britain.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope 

Marcel Kuijper wrote:
> <raamman RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> you make a good point, but please, be more respectful, he was only 16
>> years old
>
> Okay then I'll say it: if most 16 year olds aren't mature enough to operate
> a car responsibley, why allow them to fly a plane solo?
>
> This may sound harsh, but it's just my opinion.
>
> I don't trust a 16 year old behind the wheel of a car, much less at the
> controls of an aircraft. Even 18 year olds aren't mature enough where
> I'm from.
>
> Anyone know what the minimum age is for flying lessons?
>
>
> Marcel
>
>

This accident actually occurred near where I work (just behind Southend
airport), and I thought the same thing. I didn't realise people could
fly at such a young age, and I'm not certain, but I'm sure that 16 is
the minimum for flying solo, but they can fly at 14-15 with an instructor.
Like you said, I wouldn't let a 16 year old loose with my car, but on
the other hand, the type of people that have the skills and patience to
gain a flying licence aren't the run of the mill.
A tragic end for a young man who must have had a bright future ahead of
him after soloing at 16.


--


J.
 >> Stay informed about: Student Pilot Unable to Cope