Storm

I recently played against an opponent who first played an suspended
Lotus Bloom, then a Rite of Flame and followed it by a Grapeshot. The
storm created 2 copies, and he aimed all three damage at me.
He then proceeded by sacrificing the Lotus Bloom and playing Ignite
Memories. He claimed that 5 copies are to be created (2 for the Bloom
and the Rite, 3 for the Grapeshot + it's Storm copies). I, however,
claimed that the Storm copies were not played in the first place but
put on the stack as copies, which would make 3 Storm copies for Ignite
Memories.

The central question of this issue is whether storm copies are played
or not. It's the same for Replicated Spells like Gigadrowse, I guess.
So which variant is right: Storm (and Replicate) copies counting
towards Stom or not?

Cheers
Alarion



CardName: Lotus Bloom
Cost:
Type: Artifact
Pow/Tgh: /
Rules Text: Suspend 3-0 (Rather than play this card from your hand, pay
0 and remove it from the game with three time counters on it. At the
beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is
removed, play it without paying its mana cost.) T, Sacrifice Lotus
Bloom: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool.
Set/Rarity: Time Spiral Rare

CardName: Rite of Flame
Cost: R
Type: Sorcery
Pow/Tgh: /
Rules Text: Add RR to your mana pool, then add R to your mana pool for
each card named Rite of Flame in each graveyard.
Set/Rarity: Coldsnap Common

CardName: Grapeshot
Cost: 1R
Type: Sorcery
Pow/Tgh: /
Rules Text: Grapeshot deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each spell played before
it this turn. You may choose new targets for the copies.)
Set/Rarity: Time Spiral Common

CardName: Ignite Memories
Cost: 4R
Type: Sorcery
Pow/Tgh: /
Rules Text: Target player reveals a card at random from his or her
hand. Ignite Memories deals damage to that player equal to that card's
converted mana cost. Storm (When you play this spell, copy it for each
spell played before it this turn. You may choose new targets for the
copies.)
Set/Rarity: Time Spiral Uncommon

On 7 Oct 2006 06:40:22 -0700, Alarion Irisar <Alarion.Irisar.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>I recently played against an opponent who first played an suspended
>Lotus Bloom, then a Rite of Flame and followed it by a Grapeshot. The
>storm created 2 copies, and he aimed all three damage at me.
>He then proceeded by sacrificing the Lotus Bloom and playing Ignite
>Memories. He claimed that 5 copies are to be created (2 for the Bloom
>and the Rite, 3 for the Grapeshot + it's Storm copies). I, however,
>claimed that the Storm copies were not played in the first place but
>put on the stack as copies, which would make 3 Storm copies for Ignite
>Memories.

You are correct. Storm copies are not "played"; they do not go through the
announcement process at all, which is what "playing a spell" is. They appear
full-blown on the stack. You have the option to make them appear with a
different target - that's not the same as "playing" one. So Storm copies
are never counted by Storm abilities.

A card's Oracle wording (or its keyword's rule's wording in the rulebook)
will let you know whether it's just "copying" a spell/ability, or whether
it's "copying a CARD and letting you PLAY the copy". These two give different
answers for your question... because one's playing the copy, and the other
isn't.

>The central question of this issue is whether storm copies are played
>or not. It's the same for Replicated Spells like Gigadrowse, I guess.

502.52a says "yes"; Replicate is just copying the spells. It's not copying
a card somewhere and letting you play the copy. So the Replicate copies aren't
played, and won't count for Storm.

Contrast this with Isochron Scepter, Eye of the Storm, or Panoptic Mirror,
all of which are copying cards somewhere, then letting you _play_ the copy.
Those _played_ copies DO get counted for Storm's purposes, if they're played
before the Storm spell is.

>So which variant is right: Storm (and Replicate) copies counting
>towards Stom or not?

Not.

Dave
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