State of race balance

On Aug 27, 5:39 am, Thri... RemoveThis @googlemail.com wrote:
> Draconians:
>
> Commonly considered underpowered. Seldom played.
> Development: some minor changes were made, but I see no progress
> today.
> Responsible developer: ???

What's the general opinion about how the new starting ships have
benefited the race?


> RCS:
>
> Commonly considered underpowered for some hard weaknesses and a weak
> economy. Seldom played.
> Development: none AFAIK.
> Responsible developer: Christian Jadot.

I'm seriously considering playing this race in my next game. While I
can see areas of weakness, I think I can make it a real power.


> Peoples' army:
>
> Unplayable, now? The Peeps used to be considered as overpowered for
> their strange ship list (especially as allies), I think. Seldom
> played.
> Development: none AFAIK.
> Responsible developer: ???

Responsible developer would be Chris Richardson (General Khael on this
list). I believe he submitted quite a few changes, including a
seriously pruned shiplist. It looks promising.

> University Alliance:
>
> Commonly considered a bit underpowered. Seldom played.
> Development: none AFAIK.
> Responsible developer: ???

There is a UA player in my current game that is doing quite well.
Initial distance between Homeworlds might have allowed him to
compensate for some of the racial weaknesses.
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

> > University Alliance:
>
> > Commonly considered a bit underpowered. Seldom played.
> > Development: none AFAIK.
> > Responsible developer: ???
>
> There is a UA player in my current game that is doing quite well.
> Initial distance between Homeworlds might have allowed him to
> compensate for some of the racial weaknesses.

The UA have issues very early on until they can get Incidents and HKs
running. Perhaps a starting Tech Institute would help that since
teching up to Hull tech 5 for Incidents is very important.

Starting them with an Incident instead of the pathfinder might be a
good idea as well.
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

Here the updated list. I used Tim's old power rating system (100 being
the optimal value). These numbers should be modified after more
opinions or changes came in.

I used to see the Sols as overpowered, too, but I heard not much in
this direction for some time (exception: SML?).

I had a look at the new starting ships of the Dracs. They should give
a better start indeed. BTW: the Balkas have 3 Flakes, but only 2 PD
slots. Who is responsible for the Dracs, now?


Centaurs:

Estimated power rating: 70
Development: changes being tested
Responsible developer: Mutu

Draconians:

Estimated power rating: 80
Development: new start ships are being tested
Responsible developer: ???

RCS:

Estimated power rating: 80
Development: none AFAIK.
Responsible developer: Christian Jadot.

UEA:

Estimated power rating: 130
Development: Update list needed.
Responsible developer: Greg Bahr.

Crystals:

Estimated power rating: 120 (when exploiting stress tricks)
Development: none AFAIK.
Responsible developer: Tim.

Peoples' army:

Estimated power rating: alone 70, allied 130?
Development: changes submitted?
Responsible developer: Chris Richardson (General Khael)

IMT:

Estimated power rating: 90?
Development: none AFAIK.
Responsible developer: Paul Honigmann.

Aczanny Pyramids:

Estimated power rating: 80
Development: none AFAIK.
Responsible developer: Sergei Ivanov

University Alliance:

Estimated power rating: 90
Development: none AFAIK.
Responsible developer: Scott Oetke

Solorians:

Estimated power rating: 120
Development: none AFAIK.
Responsible developer: Greg Bahr

Thriyon
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

I don't understand why have you scored centaurs lower than dracs.
Dracs are the worst race ever.
Furthemore, Centaurs are not weaker than Azcany. Finally, you should
keep in mind that centaurs do a really good job with alliances.
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

On Aug 28, 4:01 pm, Nyh <javi... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't understand why have you scored centaurs lower than dracs.
> Dracs are the worst race ever.
> Furthemore, Centaurs are not weaker than Azcany. Finally, you should
> keep in mind that centaurs do a really good job with alliances.

Drac with all the changes are far from weak, they are a bit
"flavorless" yes, but you do not understand them if you think their
weak, and if you rate them weaker than the Centaur who are the weakest
of all.
Good staring economy, good defense ship, just need to build a little
invasion fleet (they have a few good cost effective warships) for a
farm world or 2, and even a enemy HW is possible, after that the
incredible cash of a prisoner economy kick in...

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

> Aczanny Pyramids:
> Estimated power rating: 80
> Development: none AFAIK.
> Responsible developer: Sergei Ivanov

Concerning the Aczanny, Sergej did work on a racepack update a year
back or so and sent it to Tim. He didn't got a feedback though. Magik,
if you don't have his email, but want it to ask Sergej about his race
ideas, I can send it to you.

My recent playing experience with the Aczanny: they are terrible weak
at the start since they desperately need prisoners (no income and no
metals without), but their low tech ship list sucks. An experienced
player with an inexperienced neighbor can pull it off, but otherwise
they are probably doomed. If the Aczanny survive this phase and get
prisoners, they are fine. But. Their ships will always be vulnerable,
since anyone with a high attack bonus hull or sufficient ET can make
short work off them. There are some races (and it's not a short list)
who can sweep the floor with the Aczanny no matter what. That's too
big a weakness. Also their economy will always be very fragile, since
they depend on labor mines (not camps). So yes, I think they need some
improvements, or at least a reduction of their weaknesses. And some
better ship hulls. And a cheaper fighter if they are indeed perceived
as a fighter race (which I think the creator does). As said, the
creator worked on a racepack update, but it went unobserved.
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

Tnx for your input.

Yes, Centaurs offer their great mobility and the Raffa to allies,
which is a big gain for most races.

BTW: Considering the alliance potential obviously makes the problem of
compiling a balance list really hard. Races with rare abilities like
Centaurs, Borg, Sols, IMT, Peeps have a big natural alliance
potential. Races without good specials (Dracs) add much less to an
alliance. This list is intended to reflect the average stand-alone
power. As long as no race is officially considered as an ally race
(none AFAIK), I consider only the stand-alone power of the listed
races.

And yes, the Dracs should have a nice start, now, and be thus
stronger.

I added a line for each race to describe the supposed problems.


Centaurs:

Estimated power rating: 80 (110 when allied)
Problems: lack of war ships, type 3 fighter and mech too expensive
Development: changes being tested
Responsible developer: Mutu

Draconians:

Estimated power rating: 90
Problems: (flavorless)
Development: new start ships are being tested
Responsible developer: ???

RCS:

Estimated power rating: 80
Problems: weak economy, half of the ships are too expensive
Development: none AFAIK
Responsible developer: Christian Jadot

UEA:

Estimated power rating: 130
Problems: no weaknesses, too powerful specials
Development: update list needed
Responsible developer: Greg Bahr

Crystals:

Estimated power rating: 120
Problems: abusive stress trick (flipping planets with own Light ship)
Development: none AFAIK
Responsible developer: Tim

Peoples' army:

Estimated power rating: 80 (130? when allied)
Problems: strange ship list
Development: changes submitted?
Responsible developer: Chris Richardson (General Khael)

IMT:

Estimated power rating: 90? (110? when allied)
Problems: lacking the multi-/planet-tow?
Development: none AFAIK
Responsible developer: Paul Honigmann

Aczanny Pyramids:

Estimated power rating: 70
Problems: weak economy, slow start
Development: update missing in action
Responsible developer: Sergej Ivanov

University Alliance:

Estimated power rating: 90
Problems: slow ships, partly weak economy, slow start
Development: none AFAIK
Responsible developer: Scott Oetke

Solorians:

Estimated power rating: 120
Problems: circumvented weaknesses
Development: none AFAIK
Responsible developer: Greg Bahr
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

Well I know Mattrixx is just dying to be able to modify them (more
focused on adding in race flavor that the lack).

I am unsure if he has seen this latest race list update ideas, nope I
stand corrected he informs me that he has indeed seen these changes.
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

> Draconians:
>
> Responsible developer: ???


I believe my brother Hilmar Benne got the permission from Tim to rework
the Draconians some years ago.

He worked out some improvements three years ago with help from Thriyon,
Scytale, Mutu, Peter Chambers, Paul Honigmann, Flynx, Ilja, Lord Owl.
(i got the names from the homepage)

The changes are documented here:
http://www.hbenne.de/vgaplanets/Dracs/index.html

My brother is offline these days (real life duty). I will ask him if he
is going to continue the work or if someone else should do that.


--
Andreas

_________________________

www.saarlandoutpost.com

home of ShipCalc utility
_________________________
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

On Aug 29, 2:34 pm, Mutu <M....TakeThisOut@SoftHome.net> wrote:
> Well I know Mattrixx is just dying to be able to modify them (more
> focused on adding in race flavor that the lack).
>
> I am unsure if he has seen this latest race list update ideas, nope I
> stand corrected he informs me that he has indeed seen these changes.

I would also like to the Guardian of the Drac.

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

The Drac have won a competive game and killed a fat Robot in a P4
League game.

http://www.todoblackberry.com/p4league/p4/score.php

Care to explain how much money the centaur made ?

Popping amorphous is not that much of a boost of $, sure you get a
load of spices, but you have to sell it slowly over many turns
due to low population, let say with 2 000 000 drac at turn 15, it is
6000-8000$ income per turn from spices selling, notting game braking.

Maybe the spices prices where extremly high ?

What kind of Centaur ships did you face ?
Centaur do poorly vs mass PTT

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

On Aug 29, 2:28 am, Lord Lancelot <polan....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Drac with all the changes are far from weak, they are a bit
> "flavorless" yes, but you do not understand them if you think their
> weak, and if you rate them weaker than the Centaur who are the weakest
> of all.

I have just played Dracs (in my last game, which began on june and
finished a week ago). On turn 8 I had more than 25 goverment centers
that gave me 10k+ mc each turn (I think that tax income + city income
+ extra 10k mc at turn 8 is a real good economy job). At turn 15 I was
totally overwhelmed by a centaur who got amorphous. His economy was
superior than mine and his amazing movility (he has hyp, dracs have no
gravity wel/mine) allowed him to destroy most of my goverment centers
and finally stroke me at about 19 with a real big swarm that destroyed
my HW defending fleet: krait + 7 tikus + fighters + lots of exotic
tech (including the three to shield bonus, two attack and one
evasive). I must say that his attack was so overwhelming that I did
NOT kill him a single ship.
I still think Dracs are the worst race in play.
And centaurs, with their new changes, are a little underpowered
whitout alliances (85-90?), and a little overpowered with alliances
(105?).
IMHO

Nyh
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance 

Tnx all for the new inputs.

The power of the Centaurs and Dracs are being discussed, so I leave
their power value at 80 and 90 so far. Nyhs experience with an over-
Centaur should be looked closely upon first. To me it's a bit
frightening to hear from such early economy build-ups. What would the
races without early game economy specials do to defend themselves
against those quick-starters who find good conditions?

BTW: Magik is ready to receive race updates from the race owners at
any time...

Thriyon
 >> Stay informed about: State of race balance