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Since: Jan 16, 2008
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:24 pm
Post subject: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL.
Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>development (more info?)
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First things first, I'm a Computer Science student with 3 C++ classes
under my belt, but no production-quality projects to show for it. I'm
hoping to write a graphical coffeebreak roguelike based on "one of the
most bizarre videogames ever created" (it even says so on the box), a
game called Cubivore. Cubivore is a Gamecube port of the Japan-only
N64 title Doubutsu Banchou, or Animal Leader. You play as a cube with
an animal face, that has colorful square-panel limbs and moves around
awkwardly on them. The world consists of other colorful beasts out to
eat you, a few evil colorless beasts, and land that either is safe and
colorful or impenetrable and blank. Everything in the game is a cube
or square; the sun, the moon, the mountains, the walls, etc. are all
boxes. Your goal in the GameCube game is to take back the wilderness
that has disappeared from the land by beating the colorless creatures
and eventually defeating the Killer Cubivore. In CubivoreRL, it is
more freeform; simply eat, fight, mate and have your progeny go
onward. Instead of picking up armor, swords, gold and potions like in
a typical RL, when you kill an enemy beast you eat its limbs and pick
up color bits based on their colors. Once you have enough color bits,
your color and form changes (hopefully for the better), and you
recover HP. Some items do give permanent changes that are unaffected
by color, like Horn Flakes boosting your attack score and Scar Dust
boosting your defense. Like in the original, there should be 150 total
Cubivore forms (5 shades of 5 colors on between 1 and 6 limbs), but
honestly, there will probably be about two forms in whatever version I
can get to.
Because I only have experience in C++, I'm thinking I should use a
similar language (D, haXe and Java come to mind) when programming
this. So, does anyone know of a coffeebreak roguelike with well-
documented source code that I can study and use to my advantage? If
it is programmed in C, C++, Java, or D, I can probably learn a little
easier from it than I would from a project that used another language,
but I'll take what I can get.
Also, the graphics will be an issue, because I am not any kind of
artist (as I would imagine, most roguelike developers are in the same
boat). If anyone has any skills with this or knows someone who does
(and is willing to work on an open source game), I would love to hear
from you.
If anyone has any interest in this project and can offer a little
advice, please, please enlighten me.
Thanks in advance,
T. Ettinger |
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External
Since: Nov 15, 2007
Posts: 26
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 17 Jan, 08:24, "T. Ettinger" <tommy.ettin....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
(snip Cubivore description)
I hope this won't degenerate into yet another "what qualifies as a
roguelike?" discussion (flamewar), but to be honest I fail to see the
roguelike elements this game is supposed to have, compared to "just" a
"regular" puzzle game.
The trend today is to write AnyGameRL - while this has proven
successful (against all odds) in some cases, I still don't think *any*
game is suitable for a roguelike spinoff. Feel free to prove me wrong
though.
> Because I only have experience in C++, I'm thinking I should use a
> similar language (D, haXe and Java come to mind) when programming
OTOH, writing a roguelike is a very good way to get familiar with a
new language. I'd pick the one that's most fun to code, and in case of
a tie the one that's most portable.
> this. So, does anyone know of a coffeebreak roguelike with well-
> documented source code that I can study and use to my advantage?
There are at least two "demo" roguelikes for educational purposes:
http://www.adom.de/misc/qhack.php3
http://pungentpickles.com/rlnews/devmain.html#blah
> Also, the graphics will be an issue, because I am not any kind of
> artist (as I would imagine, most roguelike developers are in the same
> boat). If anyone has any skills with this or knows someone who does
> (and is willing to work on an open source game), I would love to hear
> from you.
Do you absolutely need sprite graphics? Considering the abstract
nature of the game, perhaps using only polygons could work as well.
-the ru |
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Since: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 40
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:45 am
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jan 17, 2:06 am, the ru <ulf.ast....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 17 Jan, 08:24, "T. Ettinger" <tommy.ettin....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> (snip Cubivore description)
>
> I hope this won't degenerate into yet another "what qualifies as a
> roguelike?" discussion (flamewar), but to be honest I fail to see the
> roguelike elements this game is supposed to have, compared to "just" a
> "regular" puzzle game.
Well, he must believe that it has random elements, because ASCII
characters apparently never came up as an option. That's promising;
it means this isn't a situation of "I'm going to rewrite a game,
replace the graphics with letters, and call it a roguelike."
--
Gamer_2k4 >> Stay informed about: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. |
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External
Since: Nov 06, 2006
Posts: 838
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <0d088ac8-4d3c-4b76-b8bb-8a942277dbe4@
21g2000hsj.googlegroups.com>, tommy.ettinger DeleteThis @gmail.com says...
> Because I only have experience in C++, I'm thinking I should use a
> similar language (D, haXe and Java come to mind) when programming
> this. So, does anyone know of a coffeebreak roguelike with well-
> documented source code that I can study and use to my advantage? If
> it is programmed in C, C++, Java, or D, I can probably learn a little
> easier from it than I would from a project that used another language,
> but I'll take what I can get.
C++ is a good language for making roguelikes, and seems a natural
choice if that's what you know. Most of the code out there is in C,
but you can easily wrap that into C++ classes if you are cloning it.
> Also, the graphics will be an issue, because I am not any kind of
> artist (as I would imagine, most roguelike developers are in the same
> boat). If anyone has any skills with this or knows someone who does
> (and is willing to work on an open source game), I would love to hear
> from you.
It depends on your target system and the graphic libraries you are
using.
Even those who (like me) set their face against plain ASCII are often
quite content with simple square graphic tiles moving on a rectangular
grid.
- Gerry Quinn >> Stay informed about: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. |
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External
Since: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 161
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 2008-01-17 23:19:24, "T. Ettinger" <tommy.ettinger RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> So, what is RGRD's
> opinion on Flash-based roguelikes? .... Does any programming happen on the
> server-side, or can the
> player be left to download a 30-MB SWF with every new session?
I don't know about Haxe, but Macromedia's Flash editor allows coding the
Shockwave control to connect to the server. The support for XML data is fairly
good. Also, if you're careful with transforms and recycling images and sounds,
you should be able to stay under 2MB for a basic Flash roguelike easily.
I did do some prototyping for a isometric-projection game in Flash. (With
precomputed graphics, the rendering is no more complicated than a traditional 2D
display.) I wasn't able to figure out how to easily synchronize the
ActionScript source code with a C (or C++) version, so that didn't go anywhere. >> Stay informed about: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. |
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Since: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 161
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 2008-01-20 19:33:38, jotaf98 DeleteThis @hotmail.com wrote:
> ... Not to discourage you or anything
> but for a first project don't you think 3d is a bit much?
He mentioned considering prerendered isometric graphics. That is so close to 2D
that I'm intentionally making the decision between console and 3D isometric
rendering a link-time decision.
Since he's already committed to graphics, I see no reason why isometric graphics
should be any more difficult than tile graphics. It just restricts your format
choices to those that have transparency. (*.GIF and *.PNG are generally easy to
find editors for. Microsoft *.BMP is workable *if* you have an editor that
*knows* how to put transparency in a Microsoft *.BMP per Microsoft's own specs.) >> Stay informed about: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. |
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Since: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 37
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:20 am
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 20 Jan, 18:56, Kenneth 'Bessarion' Boyd <zaim....DeleteThis@zaimoni.com>
wrote:
> He mentioned considering prerendered isometric graphics. That is so close to 2D
> that I'm intentionally making the decision between console and 3D isometric
> rendering a link-time decision.
>
> Since he's already committed to graphics, I see no reason why isometric graphics
> should be any more difficult than tile graphics. It just restricts your format
> choices to those that have transparency. (*.GIF and *.PNG are generally easy to
> find editors for. Microsoft *.BMP is workable *if* you have an editor that
> *knows* how to put transparency in a Microsoft *.BMP per Microsoft's own specs.)
Wow I didn't know BMP had that! Well iso tiles are a bit harder, if
just for the different game logic...from my experience, you have to
double every code for the even and odd lines of tiles.
Jotaf >> Stay informed about: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. |
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Since: Nov 15, 2007
Posts: 26
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 21 Jan, 17:20, jota... RemoveThis @hotmail.com wrote:
> Wow I didn't know BMP had that! Well iso tiles are a bit harder, if
> just for the different game logic...from my experience, you have to
> double every code for the even and odd lines of tiles.
Why? It's a normal grid, except *displayed* from a different angle.
A hexagon map, on the other hand...
-the ru >> Stay informed about: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. |
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Since: Nov 15, 2007
Posts: 26
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:09 am
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 17 Jan, 23:19, "T. Ettinger" <tommy.ettin... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 17, 7:45 am, Gamer_2k4 <gamer... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 17, 2:06 am, the ru <ulf.ast... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 17 Jan, 08:24, "T. Ettinger" <tommy.ettin... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > > (snip Cubivore description)
>
> > > I hope this won't degenerate into yet another "what qualifies as a
> > > roguelike?" discussion (flamewar), but to be honest I fail to see the
> > > roguelike elements this game is supposed to have, compared to "just" a
> > > "regular" puzzle game.
>
> > Well, he must believe that it has random elements, because ASCII
> > characters apparently never came up as an option. That's promising;
> > it means this isn't a situation of "I'm going to rewrite a game,
> > replace the graphics with letters, and call it a roguelike."
>
> You hit the nail on the head there. I can't think of any other genres
> that feature both permadeath and pervasive random generation, and
> possess virtually infinite replayability.
I can; they're called puzzle games. A game can have random elements
and permadeath, but those aren't features unique to roguelikes. It can
have abstract ASCII "graphics" and turn-based keyboard control, but
that alone doesn't make it Rogue-like. It can be an adventure game
with player statistics and morally ambiguous decisions to be made,
but... well, you get the idea. I don't have anything against puzzle
games, but if you take a roguelike game and start stripping out
roguelike features, it will eventually tip into the much broader CRPG
or puzzle genres.
> Playing a roguelike isn't anything like playing most other games; the
> trick in designing one is keeping the player engrossed enough to
> want to play again and again despite dying.
"Most other games" just add a "restore saved game" feature instead.
> So, what is RGRD's opinion on Flash-based roguelikes?
Probably as diverse as its posters.
> Does the zero-install nature make potential players more eager to try
> it out, or make it easier for them to quit?
Zero-install for those with Flash; there are still people that don't
have, want, or even use browsers that support it.
-the ru >> Stay informed about: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. |
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Since: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 161
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 2008-01-21 17:20:51, jotaf98 DeleteThis @hotmail.com wrote:
> On 20 Jan, 18:56, Kenneth 'Bessarion' Boyd
> wrote:
> > He mentioned considering prerendered isometric graphics. That is so close to 2D
> > that I'm intentionally making the decision between console and 3D isometric
> > rendering a link-time decision.
> >
> > Since he's already committed to graphics, I see no reason why isometric graphics
> > should be any more difficult than tile graphics. It just restricts your format
> > choices to those that have transparency. (*.GIF and *.PNG are generally easy to
> > find editors for. Microsoft *.BMP is workable *if* you have an editor that
> > *knows* how to put transparency in a Microsoft *.BMP per Microsoft's own specs.)
>
> Wow I didn't know BMP had that! Well iso tiles are a bit harder, if
There was a reserved fourth byte in the RGB pixel color struct. It got
converted to an alpha transparency byte in Win98, but could have been abused for
alpha transparency earlier if you wanted to do the color mixing yourself.
> just for the different game logic...from my experience, you have to
> double every code for the even and odd lines of tiles.
Going from internal coordinates to where to place the isometric tiles is a
linear transformation. The inverse transformation isn't unique for multiple
layers, but it's still cheap to compute.
Which lets me stuff the whole difference between isometric graphics and a
console into the rendering engine (which also handles low-level command
parsing), rather than game logic. >> Stay informed about: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. |
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Since: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 37
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:56 am
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 23 Jan, 17:30, Kenneth 'Bessarion' Boyd <zaim... RemoveThis @zaimoni.com>
wrote:
> > just for the different game logic...from my experience, you have to
> > double every code for the even and odd lines of tiles.
>
> Going from internal coordinates to where to place the isometric tiles is a
> linear transformation. The inverse transformation isn't unique for multiple
> layers, but it's still cheap to compute.
>
> Which lets me stuff the whole difference between isometric graphics and a
> console into the rendering engine (which also handles low-level command
> parsing), rather than game logic.
Yes I see your point. The two main reasons for that design were to
avoid diagonal movement which I found annoying, and to have
rectangular maps instead of diamond-shaped ones. Of course they could
still be implemented with a regular grid (and easily too), but not
much thought was put into it really 
Jotaf >> Stay informed about: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. |
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Since: Nov 06, 2006
Posts: 838
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <4a87cca8-8e9c-48f3-8b21-
130deb99428f.DeleteThis@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, ulf.astrom.DeleteThis@gmail.com says...
> On 17 Jan, 23:19, "T. Ettinger" <tommy.ettin....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Playing a roguelike isn't anything like playing most other games; the
> > trick in designing one is keeping the player engrossed enough to
> > want to play again and again despite dying.
>
> "Most other games" just add a "restore saved game" feature instead.
Indeed, I'm not sure that insisting on perma-death as a feature of
'real' roguelikes is not missing the point.
In terms of gameplay, perma-death has several effects:
(1) You have to play carefully and strategically, not try random things
and hope to get lucky. (An exception is when trying random things is
the only option that might save you!)
(2) Death clears the map - it brings no informational advantage except
general things like what particular monster types do, or what sort of
maps typically appear on level X.
We can achieve similar effects by punishing 'death' less drastically -
so long as it is punished, there is a reason to play carefully. There
must be some punisgment to achieve (1). And (2) can be achieved by
fixed save points, beyond which the map is randomly generated after
death.
- Gerry Quinn >> Stay informed about: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. |
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Since: Dec 25, 2007
Posts: 8
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Nov 15, 2007
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Jan 27, 2008
Posts: 31
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:47 am
Post subject: Re: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 13 Feb, 01:33, konijn_ <kon... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > There are at least two "demo" roguelikes for educational purposes:
>
> >http://www.adom.de/misc/qhack.php3
> >http://pungentpickles.com/rlnews/devmain.html#blah
>
> Yeah. I tried qhack, it's a mess to compile. Having a function called
> 'try' doesnt help ;] I am considering writing QhaXe in haXe but it
> would be great if someone took over the torch and fixed up qhack so
> that it compiles again under cygwin/linux/mac.
What needs to be fixed? With Linux/GCC I had no trouble except
ensuring all filenames were extracted in lowercase (unzip -LL) and
that ncurses.h was included.
-the ru >> Stay informed about: Starting from scratch, CubivoreRL. |
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