Spells. All of them.

Good thread thus far. A lot of the best have been covered, imo. My
personal favs for spells are:

Force Wall - Excellent damage in hallways, and great for groups. Helps
with keeping mobs off your back in the lower levels. Knockback is good
stuff. Not a bad spell for the cost, though the damage isn't always
very high (placement is important).

Preserve - There is a great deal of flexibility with this spell. A
must for would-be necromancers and clerics. Greatly enhances my
ability to survive exposure to one of my least favorite enemies, the
dreaded cockatrice. Good for eats, of course (when playing as a
follower of Pax, I find myself starving a lot). Also a base for some
of the more complicated spells.

Major Heal - Obvious

Slow poison - Cheap. A life saver when facing the Green Dragons.

Identify - While expensive to use at first, it's worth the xp loss.

Ressurect - Because pet liches and water elementals kick ass. Green
Dragons... not so much...

Bind Soul - A pain to pull off correctly, but a lot of fun when it
works right.

Do spells from wands count? If so, Poly is another favorite. I don't
much care to change my character (unless I'm in a pinch)... too much
room for error there. Being able to swap out useless spells and books
is a wonderful thing.

Bill
 >> Stay informed about: Spells. All of them. 

On Feb 4, 1:49 pm, Derek Ray <de....RemoveThis@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
wrote:
> On 2008-02-04, Jeff Lait <torespondisfut....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't line up multiple creatures. I do this:
>
> > ###
> > @M#
> > #.#
>
> > If I have reflection, it bounces between me and the wall striking the
> > M many times. You need a high magic level to get lots of bounces,
> > however.
>
> More importantly, you _need_ reflection, which is extremely rare in my
> (admittedly limited) experience. By the time I have an identified
> reflection item, I generally am well past the point where I'm considering
> Magic Missile as an attack spell.

Well, my theory is that it is still in my arsenal as it is a prereq,
so I should still find use for it. The bounce-of-death is something I
usually reserve for cockatrices and other nasties I want dead
*quick*. Other spells might do more damage with less set up, but
magic missile has a good to-hit so is reliable.

> Without reflection, I tend to hit me, and I value my HP too much to
> plink away at myself; monster generation appears to increase linearly
> with the amount of time you spend on any given level, so I can't ever
> count on a break to heal unless I know where a small closed-in area is.

I usually try to guestimate how far it will go so I can have it expire
before it reaches me. Usually I mess up and plink away at my HP,
which explains why I still don't win often :>

> >> positive in a big way. Teleport and Blink are seriously underrated from
> >> that regard, I feel; when you Gotta Get Away, you Gotta Get Away.
> >> #1 cause of survival in all roguelikes I've seen is "Not Gettin' Hit."
> > If I had a penny for every dead character with an unread, identified,
> > scroll of teleport... Crawl had a neat idea to limit teleport with
> > the delay effect. Personally, I find user error to be sufficiently
> > effective to nerf most forms of teleport.
>
> Hmm. I try to build my designs assuming a perfect player, but this may be
> just a different philosophy overall.

We might just be both building aiming at players like ourselves.

> I had a chance to use Blink last
> night in the midst of a horrendous storm (kobold assassins casting Track
> generally means mobs of critters after you), and it was superbly
> effective at getting me out of the mess and back to the stairs. (Again,
> controlled teleport looks good but the 20MP means you have to bail out
> well before you may be ready; Blink can get you free of the mob even
> when you're out of offensive magic points.)

I have a fighter-cleric at Belweir's Library who has been sorely
missing blink. He's been using random-teleport as the escape which
often gets one in more trouble.

> >> After noting Acid Splash's side effects, I just don't use it; the risk
> >> outweighs any possible reward, and the risk _increases_ as you progress
> >> in the game. I'd rather simply be more careful and not get into jams
> >> where I need to rely on a spell killing one monster in one shot.
> > I'm not convinced risk increases the deeper you go. The chance of any
> > particular item being toasted is equal - it goes by slot, not item.
>
> And that's the problem -- perhaps my Nethack habits are exposing it a
> bit more. I try to identify what will be necessary later and fill slots
> with things that grant it. Let's take acid resistance as an example.

A very good and logical strategy you outline here. However...

> I will _always_ arrange to wear something that grants acid resistance,
> because yellow dragons, slugs, and cubes can be a real pain without it,
> and with it I can use the yellow dragons and cubes to my advantage.

Acid resistance is poor example as any item with acid resistance won't
dissolve in the backsplash :>

Your point is taken, however. I tend to play more cavalierly. Sure,
I *need* to fill the same slots. But if a slot gets toasted, my
response is more "Ooh! Exciting... how can I survive now?" What I
really like is bailing myself out of difficult situations, so tend to
not mind too much decisions that create difficult situations :> It is
quite a feeling to rescue a character you saved when it was deadly
poisoned with 1 hp left :>

> >> > Force Bolt is expensive for its damage, but the knockback really makes
> >> At 10MP, I look at it as more of a "utility" spell -- and I haven't
> >> found anything I want to break yet. :/
> > An accurate classification - until recently it was in the utility book
> > and a prereq for dig. Breaking is pretty limited usefulness -
>
> Yeah. :/ Are there locked doors or chests at all? The "Knock" spell
> description mentions these ("thanks, belweir, i really needed to be
> taught that at 14/10... /Forget"), but I haven't seen one of them yet.
>
> (Current character is parked outside the magic door in Belweir's level.)

Yeah, ironically the one "locked" door in the game doesn't open to
Knock. Knock was added when I planned on having locked doors. There
are even in the code action defines for Lock and Unlock which have
been long since removed from the UI.

> > especially since you can swap boulders in a pinch. Force Wall is a
> > fun spell, however, and bolt is a prereq. Also, the super-fast
> > ascension exploit requires force bolt.
>
> I'm not aware of the exploit, but I'm pretty much assuming that all
> exploits will be fixed either soon or sooner, so it really isn't
> anything I want to consider as a direct "positive" of the spell.

It is almost an exploit in the heroic sense rather than the buggy
sense, and since it only applies to people who make it to level 25, so
are likely going to win anyways, I've intentionally kept it around.

> >> Cast it twice, got a bat each time. I don't cast it anymore. Don't
> >> know if it can produce something that has a hope of being durable, but
> >> the bat isn't it, to be sure, and as you note, it's non-productive to
> >> hang around babysitting the darn thing.
> >
> > I don't know if you got the second spell in that series, Transfer XP.
>
> I saw it, but it's, well, a bat :/

"The bat looks stronger. The bat learns Acid Splash."

> I'd like to see the act of eating the soul sucker's corpse either
> immediately restore your own skills, or at least drastically lower the
> timeout before you get your memories back. As is, I think the effect is
> a little bit over the top.

Eating is difficult since they don't always leave a corpse. Since
they also give a MP boost, making them 100% corpse is unbalancing. My
plan is very similar, however, to make *killing* the soul sucker
immediately reduce your timeout to some short period. One problem
with the effect is that it has been unintentionally nerfed for so long
that I never got a good workout with it.

> >> Haven't gotten Knock yet, or perhaps I've completely ignored it in the
> >> list in favor of, well, anything else. Track would be more useful if
> >> things actually ran away from me.
> > Somethings do, but one usually doesn't care that the Imp just
> > teleported away. What you need is things that you care about to run
> > away.
>
> Surprisingly, there are (as yet) no kobold thieves...

Wpark the Wonderful writes that kobolds are honourable traders that
would never stoop to such dishonest practices. He believes stories of
kobold thieves are yet more examples of the slander committed against
this misunderstood race. Wpark is also eager to know if anyone has
found his floppy hat Barbrask, he seems to have misplaced it on his
last adventure.

> Also, I find it interesting, yet useful, that no critters can open doors.

I have to look into this some day. Creatures like headlesses are
*supposed* to be able to open doors in their way. Usually what stops
the creature is that out of sight, out of mind, applies :>

> >> I like Poison Item a lot, especially with a bow and arrows (poisoned
> >> arrows... mmm), but I do have to remember to stop eating the things I
> >> kill this way.
> >
> > There's a skill in the Barbarian book you want to make that problem go
> > away.
>
> I would be surprised if Butcher removed poison from a corpse you just
> killed, but I suppose it's possible.

Hmm... I should look at making the description more clear. Butchery
lets you separate the poisoned meat from the good.

> Endure Hunger is nice to have on
> hand, but I'm a corpse-eater; too many tasty things around to let 'em
> slide, especially if i'm foof-proof except for Fire, for example.

That's usually my course too. Pax followers and Tlosh followers are
the exception. Pax because you aren't generating the corpses and want
to be Hungry to show your faith, and Tlosh because you have a tendency
to want to *use* all the tasty corpses.

> Indeed. Things that do damage are always things that do damage, unless
> there's something else in there to make it different. :/ (Though be
> careful you don't fall into Nethack's Magic Missile trap, where MM ends
> up being the best spell possible because of the sheer damage bonus at
> higher levels -- that came to mind when you described the reflection
> scenario above. For me, higher-cost spells should _always_ do more
> damage unless there's a very good reason (ie. Acid Splash).

Yeah, it is a catch-22. You want higher level spells to do more
damage, but you also don't want the lower level spells to be useless
as soon as the higher ones are learned. At least that is my theory.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
 >> Stay informed about: Spells. All of them. 

On 2008-02-06, Jeff Lait <torespondisfutile DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 4, 1:49 pm, Derek Ray <de... DeleteThis @moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
>> More importantly, you _need_ reflection, which is extremely rare in my
>> (admittedly limited) experience. By the time I have an identified
>> reflection item, I generally am well past the point where I'm considering
>> Magic Missile as an attack spell.
> Well, my theory is that it is still in my arsenal as it is a prereq,
> so I should still find use for it.

Yeeeeaaah. I'm perhaps more of a 'go forward' soul.

> The bounce-of-death is something I usually reserve for cockatrices and
> other nasties I want dead *quick*. Other spells might do more damage with
> less set up, but magic missile has a good to-hit so is reliable.

Things that have to die that badly aren't things I want to get as close
to as your example; cockatrices, for example, simply aren't allowed to
attack me anymore if at all possible.

>> > scroll of teleport... Crawl had a neat idea to limit teleport with
>> > the delay effect. Personally, I find user error to be sufficiently
>> > effective to nerf most forms of teleport.
>> Hmm. I try to build my designs assuming a perfect player, but this may be
>> just a different philosophy overall.
> We might just be both building aiming at players like ourselves.

I don't really think so; I'm far from a perfect player, as my experience
with NH and POWDER so far are demonstrating quite adequately.

Rather, I prefer to assume that while a certain amount of user error
_is_ to be expected over the course of the game, I cannot count on it
happening in any particular circumstance, and thus shouldn't base
anything on it in my design... especially if the circumstance is such that
the downside of making an error is very large. In fact, I can actually expect
players to make a particular effort to _not_ make mistakes in that
situation.

>> effective at getting me out of the mess and back to the stairs. (Again,
>> controlled teleport looks good but the 20MP means you have to bail out
>> well before you may be ready; Blink can get you free of the mob even
>> when you're out of offensive magic points.)
> I have a fighter-cleric at Belweir's Library who has been sorely
> missing blink. He's been using random-teleport as the escape which
> often gets one in more trouble.

Random teleport is nice if you're in a "I'm going to die if I stay here"
spot -- ie. pinned in a corner by a green dragon and cockatrice. At
that point, _anywhere_ is better simply because you have options.

Random teleport when you're at 5hp means "die somewhere else", usually,
so I tend to pull the trigger early and often if all I have is random
'port available.

>> I will _always_ arrange to wear something that grants acid resistance,
>> because yellow dragons, slugs, and cubes can be a real pain without it,
>> and with it I can use the yellow dragons and cubes to my advantage.
> Acid resistance is poor example as any item with acid resistance won't
> dissolve in the backsplash :>

Well, true. Insert something more appropriate here.

> Your point is taken, however. I tend to play more cavalierly. Sure,
> I *need* to fill the same slots. But if a slot gets toasted, my
> response is more "Ooh! Exciting... how can I survive now?" What I
> really like is bailing myself out of difficult situations, so tend to
> not mind too much decisions that create difficult situations :> It is
> quite a feeling to rescue a character you saved when it was deadly
> poisoned with 1 hp left :>

Generally, if I'm deadly poisoned with 1hp left, I ask myself "How did I
get into this situation, anyway, and what can I do to not get here
again?" And then I still try to save myself -- I mean, I don't ABANDON
games when it gets hard -- but I have to acknowledge that I've put
myself in a spot where I'm likely to die.

>> Yeah. :/ Are there locked doors or chests at all? The "Knock" spell
>> description mentions these ("thanks, belweir, i really needed to be
>> taught that at 14/10... /Forget"), but I haven't seen one of them yet.
>>
>> (Current character is parked outside the magic door in Belweir's level.)
>
> Yeah, ironically the one "locked" door in the game doesn't open to
> Knock. Knock was added when I planned on having locked doors. There
> are even in the code action defines for Lock and Unlock which have
> been long since removed from the UI.

And, just for the lulz -- as it turns out, I was parked _inside_ said
magic door, which explains why I couldn't figure out how to open it.

(Controlled teleport to the other side of a wall is an excellent escape
mechanism, but sometimes leaves you in places you didn't expect.

>> I saw it, but it's, well, a bat :/
> "The bat looks stronger. The bat learns Acid Splash."

"The bat splashes itself with Acid Splash. The bat dies!"

(yeah, i know, i have a habitual distrust of pet AI)

> Eating is difficult since they don't always leave a corpse.

Should've learned Clean Kill, shouldn't you?

> Since they also give a MP boost, making them 100% corpse is unbalancing.

Indeed.

> My plan is very similar, however, to make *killing* the soul sucker
> immediately reduce your timeout to some short period. One problem
> with the effect is that it has been unintentionally nerfed for so long
> that I never got a good workout with it.

Heh. Idle around the low levels for awhile and hooverize the maps

>> Also, I find it interesting, yet useful, that no critters can open doors.
> I have to look into this some day. Creatures like headlesses are
> *supposed* to be able to open doors in their way. Usually what stops
> the creature is that out of sight, out of mind, applies :>

In the meantime, I'm going to freely make use of this. Interestingly,
even though I was Tracked, none of them were able to get in.

>> I would be surprised if Butcher removed poison from a corpse you just
>> killed, but I suppose it's possible.
> Hmm... I should look at making the description more clear. Butchery
> lets you separate the poisoned meat from the good.

Ahhh. Yeah, you may want to do that. The way I read it, Butchery gave
more nutrition per corpse, which seemed far more useful for a Paxie who
can't eat freely.

>> Endure Hunger is nice to have on
>> hand, but I'm a corpse-eater; too many tasty things around to let 'em
>> slide, especially if i'm foof-proof except for Fire, for example.
> That's usually my course too. Pax followers and Tlosh followers are
> the exception. Pax because you aren't generating the corpses and want
> to be Hungry to show your faith, and Tlosh because you have a tendency
> to want to *use* all the tasty corpses.

Hmm. I don't ever seem to have a shortage of corpses when Tsloshed, but
then I save my mana to Ghastify things when possible. Ideally,
things like out-of-depth cave trolls.

Zombies are nice, but too damn slow to use as self-portable healing
devices, and too fragile to convert to "ZOMBIE KILL" mode.

Have you considered having Tlosh strongly discourage melee combat, and
increasing the resiliency of the Create Undead spell with magic level?

>> scenario above. For me, higher-cost spells should _always_ do more
>> damage unless there's a very good reason (ie. Acid Splash).
> Yeah, it is a catch-22. You want higher level spells to do more
> damage, but you also don't want the lower level spells to be useless
> as soon as the higher ones are learned. At least that is my theory.

I doubt any spell totally becomes useless, simply because sometimes you
just don't want to spend 30 points' worth of Lightning bolt to clear a
headless out of your path.

--
Derek

Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
 >> Stay informed about: Spells. All of them. 

On Feb 8, 2:33 pm, Derek Ray <de... DeleteThis @moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
wrote:
> On 2008-02-06, Jeff Lait <torespondisfut... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Your point is taken, however. I tend to play more cavalierly. Sure,
> > I *need* to fill the same slots. But if a slot gets toasted, my
> > response is more "Ooh! Exciting... how can I survive now?" What I
> > really like is bailing myself out of difficult situations, so tend to
> > not mind too much decisions that create difficult situations :> It is
> > quite a feeling to rescue a character you saved when it was deadly
> > poisoned with 1 hp left :>
>
> Generally, if I'm deadly poisoned with 1hp left, I ask myself "How did I
> get into this situation, anyway, and what can I do to not get here
> again?" And then I still try to save myself -- I mean, I don't ABANDON
> games when it gets hard -- but I have to acknowledge that I've put
> myself in a spot where I'm likely to die.

This is why I have problems with Crawl. Crawl deaths *look*
inevitable if you only look at the last couple of turns. This tends
to depress me and I blame the game rather than realizing my mistake
was a while back. Nethack deaths tend to be more recent. Better yet,
looking at your inventory usually shows a way you could have lived.

> >> Yeah. :/ Are there locked doors or chests at all? The "Knock" spell
> > Yeah, ironically the one "locked" door in the game doesn't open to
> > Knock. Knock was added when I planned on having locked doors. There
> > are even in the code action defines for Lock and Unlock which have
> > been long since removed from the UI.
>
> And, just for the lulz -- as it turns out, I was parked _inside_ said
> magic door, which explains why I couldn't figure out how to open it.
>
> (Controlled teleport to the other side of a wall is an excellent escape
> mechanism, but sometimes leaves you in places you didn't expect.

Oops... So much for my room flags - I had intended for that to be a
non-tele-to spot. I think it is impossible to get there with random
teleport, but I clearly missed the obvious controlled teleport. You
may be thankful that I kept the escape hatch in the room
definition :> Belweir's level used to be no-tele, but I really want
to allow you to tele outside of the library.

> >> I would be surprised if Butcher removedpoisonfrom a corpse you just
> >> killed, but I suppose it's possible.
> >
> > Hmm... I should look at making the description more clear. Butchery
> > lets you separate the poisoned meat from the good.
>
> Ahhh. Yeah, you may want to do that. The way I read it,Butcherygave
> more nutrition per corpse, which seemed far more useful for a Paxie who
> can't eat freely.

Oh. This is why the author shouldn't write spoilers. That is the one
effect it currently does *not* have. But it should.

> Have you considered having Tlosh strongly discourage melee combat, and
> increasing the resiliency of the Create Undead spell with magic level?

You mean stronger than he does now? I find I need to really
concentrate on not meleeing if I want to stay in Tlosh's good books
now. I'd hate for it to get worse.

Zombies and skeletons are currently of hitpoints dependent on the
strength of the source corpse, so are already sort of level dependent.

> I doubt any spell totally becomes useless, simply because sometimes you
> just don't want to spend 30 points' worth of Lightning bolt to clear a
> headless out of your path.

But that is what your flaming sword is for :>
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
 >> Stay informed about: Spells. All of them. 

On 2008-02-10, Jeff Lait <torespondisfutile.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 2:33 pm, Derek Ray <de....DeleteThis@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
>> And, just for the lulz -- as it turns out, I was parked _inside_ said
>> magic door, which explains why I couldn't figure out how to open it.
>>
>> (Controlled teleport to the other side of a wall is an excellent escape
>> mechanism, but sometimes leaves you in places you didn't expect.
>
> Oops... So much for my room flags - I had intended for that to be a
> non-tele-to spot. I think it is impossible to get there with random
> teleport, but I clearly missed the obvious controlled teleport. You
> may be thankful that I kept the escape hatch in the room
> definition :>

Nah, I just control-teleported to the other side of the door, promptly
discovered an obvious opening mechanism, and said "OH... i see."

> Belweir's level used to be no-tele, but I really want
> to allow you to tele outside of the library.

I understand the complication. Teleport control's biggest utility in
Nethack is while on the way "back up" with the Amulet, to hop from
stairwell to stairwell and skip any hazards you may encounter on the
way. I closed that hole in Sporkhack by making teleportation of all
kinds impossible while carrying the Amulet, but that has the unwelcome
side effect of rendering it useless for tactical purposes :/

Unfortunately there's really no middle ground. If I restrict teleport
to the stairs, you just teleport one square away. If I increase the
range, the landing point simply extends to range+1. If range gets too
large, I might as well have just turned it off completely.

(Though I suppose there is potential for only allowing teleportation
to places within a crossbow bolt's firing range while carrying the
Amulet. Hmm.)

> Oh. This is why the author shouldn't write spoilers. That is the one
> effect it currently does *not* have. But it should.



>> Have you considered having Tlosh strongly discourage melee combat, and
>> increasing the resiliency of the Create Undead spell with magic level?
> You mean stronger than he does now? I find I need to really
> concentrate on not meleeing if I want to stay in Tlosh's good books
> now. I'd hate for it to get worse.

Hmmm. I haven't particularly noticed anything THAT bad, but then I
actually do bother to not wade into the "dorm rooms" with the Cuisinart
set to 'high', too.

> Zombies and skeletons are currently of hitpoints dependent on the
> strength of the source corpse, so are already sort of level dependent.

OK. That's probably the problem I'm seeing, then; starting with a bunch
of dead mice isn't going to cut it. I'd request "zombie mouse", but the
platform limitations may not permit it effectively.

>> I doubt any spell totally becomes useless, simply because sometimes you
>> just don't want to spend 30 points' worth of Lightning bolt to clear a
>> headless out of your path.
> But that is what your flaming sword is for :>

Not if you're wielding the staff of destruction, it's not

--
Derek

Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
 >> Stay informed about: Spells. All of them. 

On Feb 10, 7:55 am, Derek Ray <de... DeleteThis @moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
wrote:
> On 2008-02-10, Jeff Lait <torespondisfut... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Belweir's level used to be no-tele, but I really want
> > to allow you to tele outside of the library.
>
> I understand the complication. Teleport control's biggest utility in
> Nethack is while on the way "back up" with the Amulet, to hop from
> stairwell to stairwell and skip any hazards you may encounter on the
> way. I closed that hole in Sporkhack by making teleportation of all
> kinds impossible while carrying the Amulet, but that has the unwelcome
> side effect of rendering it useless for tactical purposes :/

When you fetch Baezl'bub's heart you'll find that we seem to think
alike :>

> Unfortunately there's really no middle ground. If I restrict teleport
> to the stairs, you just teleport one square away. If I increase the
> range, the landing point simply extends to range+1. If range gets too
> large, I might as well have just turned it off completely.
>
> (Though I suppose there is potential for only allowing teleportation
> to places within a crossbow bolt's firing range while carrying the
> Amulet. Hmm.)

Or, one could allow only controlled teleport to visible spots, similar
to how Blink works. On teleport-forbidden levels I still allow
blinking, for example, so people can do tactical teleport without
skipping over the intended challenge.

> > Zombies and skeletons are currently of hitpoints dependent on the
> > strength of the source corpse, so are already sort of level dependent.
>
> OK. That's probably the problem I'm seeing, then; starting with a bunch
> of dead mice isn't going to cut it. I'd request "zombie mouse", but the
> platform limitations may not permit it effectively.

It's more a limitation of using tiles. I'll then want my zombie mouse
tile, my skeleton mouse tile, my.... It just goes downhill from
there :>

It would also help tell your zombies apart short of naming them all.
As a necromancer, it seems a bit weird to be naming your canon
fodder. Though, I do tend to use increasing letters of the alphabet
so I can track how many I've burned through.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
 >> Stay informed about: Spells. All of them.