Slab Pugs (ugh)

On 4 Jun, 21:02, Osoris <Joh... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 3, 8:16 pm, Polarhound <yhf98322834... RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:

> > 1. When I ask for a countdown before the pulls, it isn't because I am
> > trying to run the raid. The fact that you do a ready check then wait
> > exactly 58 seconds AFTER I set my trap to initiate the pull doesn't help
> > me in the slightest. No, I'm not specced Survival, but yes, I know how
> > to kite and trap.
>
> A good player should be able to adapt to the groups pace, you should
> always be ready and if the tank has the reigns you better hold on
> tight. Countdowns for pulls is pretty drastic, as you said this isn't
> Sunwell Plateau.

Yes, but some go at a varying pace through the run. Sometimes you are
waiting around for no apparant reason and other times someone pulls
when you aren't ready.


> > 5. This isn't the Sunwell. I think my boar, respecced immediately
> > before the raid, is capable of offtanking a single Slab mob long enough
> > to keep them controlled.
>
> Pets are not Offtanks, they should only be used as such in 2 cases:
> 1) NO ALTERNATIVE, like Underbog 3rd boss and you don't have a viable
> off tank.
> 2) EMERGENCIES, priest is getting bashed on, quick intimidate/growl to
> pull threat b4 he dies.

A pet can offtank fine when needed. The 6 or 7 mob pulls before the
fun time boss are often difficult due to a lack of CC. If you're
short on CC then a hunters pet can be a very useful extra CC.


> > 7. I am not specced for casting interrupts. Flagging the caster that
> > will do everything BUT run towards me without me running backwards
> > 40-50yds myself is not a good idea.
>
> Shouldn't be a problem for an experienced hunter, use LoS (Line of
> Sight) to your advantage.

Line of sight pulls are not always possible so the experienced hunter
is as stuck as the other hunters when that happens. Also, the
hunter's trap is the most difficult CC to use against ranged attackers
so if you have any other option at all then you should use that on the
casters first.

steve.kaye
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On Jun 4, 9:02 pm, Osoris <Joh....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 3, 8:16 pm, Polarhound <yhf98322834....RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:
> > 5.  This isn't the Sunwell.  I think my boar, respecced immediately
> > before the raid, is capable of offtanking a single Slab mob long enough
> > to keep them controlled.
>
> Pets are not Offtanks, they should only be used as such in 2 cases:
> 1) NO ALTERNATIVE, like Underbog 3rd boss and you don't have a viable
> off tank.
> 2) EMERGENCIES, priest is getting bashed on, quick intimidate/growl to
> pull threat b4 he dies.

What is your justification for saying that? As the instances get
harder (and definite no-no in heroic), yes I agree, but for many
instances having a pet off tank is fine.

And yes, I have tanked a lot at 70 as a feral druid.
 >> Stay informed about: Slab Pugs (ugh) 

On 5 Giu, 10:55, "Mark (newsgroups)" <marknewsgro... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 9:02 pm, Osoris <Joh... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 3, 8:16 pm, Polarhound <yhf98322834... RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
> > > 5.  This isn't the Sunwell.  I think my boar, respecced immediately
> > > before the raid, is capable of offtanking a single Slab mob long enough
> > > to keep them controlled.
>
> > Pets are not Offtanks, they should only be used as such in 2 cases:
> > 1) NO ALTERNATIVE, like Underbog 3rd boss and you don't have a viable
> > off tank.
> > 2) EMERGENCIES, priest is getting bashed on, quick intimidate/growl to
> > pull threat b4 he dies.
>
> What is your justification for saying that? As the instances get
> harder (and definite no-no in heroic), yes I agree, but for many
> instances having a pet off tank is fine.
>
Quote... yesterday i've played a wonderfull RAMP with me (hunta 70)
and a friend of mine (hunta 69)... two pets made great tank (i know we
were overlevel, but it was great) so... i think that if a pet 70 can
tank a 63+ mob, can also OT a 70+ for some precious seconds
>
> And yes, I have tanked a lot at 70 as a feral druid.
 >> Stay informed about: Slab Pugs (ugh) 

> Lol! Thanks for that story, I'm planning to get that shield on my own
> paladin... a nice warning to me to use a different one in groups then
> ;-D

If you want something really cool, take up engineering and get your hands on
a [Force Reactive Disk], then go into Magister's Terrace and pull that whole
room full of mana wyrms all at once.

The Sporagger shield is well worth it. I'm still using it for farming at
level 70 (the FRD loses durability very quickly and Sporagger is my backup)

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> Oof! That reminds me of some older "tank" items from the lvl 60 pre-BC
> days that had the same issue. There's an epic shield (Skullflame
> perhaps?) that has an AoE fire proc with CC breaker written all over it.

I used a Skullflame Shield for the longest time while leveling. I was so
surprised to get an item that looked that cool with the fire effect (reminds
me of one of the karazhan shields).

I wish Blizzard would put effort like that into more epic items. It's nice
when you have an epic for it to look as cool as it performs.

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On Jun 5, 9:33 am, "Shammy" <n... DeleteThis @nothing.com> wrote:
> N> Quote... yesterday i've played a wonderfull RAMP with me (hunta 70)
> N> and a friend of mine (hunta 69)... two pets made great tank (i know
> N> we were overlevel, but it was great) so... i think that if a pet 70
> N> can tank a 63+ mob, can also OT a 70+ for some precious seconds
>
> We need to divide instances in 2 category: 1. All normal instances 2.
> Heroics/raids
>
> For a player like me non heroics instances dont exsist, I have been lvl 70
> for over a year and have done all heroics lots of times with multiple chars.
> When I talk about instances it's 99,9% about heroic versions. I'm saying
> this because there are many pople here that also automaticly talk about
> heroics instead of normal instances or specially if you are above the
> instance level.
>
> In heroic instances hunter pets can't tank and get killed in 1-2 hits and
> the same goes for hunters who say they can get a few hits before retrapping,
> it's not going to happen :p
>
> Now there are normal instances where if you are not undergeared and the
> right lvl you can take a few hits without any problems, and a pet can
> offtank 1 mob without problems specially if healed.
>
> So based on the way instances work people should always specify if they are
> talking about heroic or normal versions.

Even with the topic of heroics its extremely subjective. Its all
dependent on the mobs doing the hitting. A hunter being meleed by a
caster mob obviously won't take much damage, so yes, they can take a
few hits before retrapping. Not all heroic mobs 1-shot all but
tanking classes.

I personally kited and worked through damage killing off a mob in
heroic botanica. The group wiped on the pull, leaving me alone
against the last mob, who was full on health. It was a mob that did
melee, so I used curse of exaustion to kite it. But it occasionally
did a whirlwind/arcane missle combo attack. While I was able to stay
out of the way of its melee, I couldn't escape the arcane missles. I
wasn't one shotted, but I did heal myself through dots, pots, and
healthstones, long enough to take down that last mob solo.

And while hunter and warlock pets don't make the greatest off tanks,
there are situations where it does work. The 3rd boss of heroic UB
for example, I've offtanked the bear with my voidwalker. I don't have
demo points, but between me and the healer we kept enough heals on the
VW to keep him going through almost the whole fight. I'm sure the
right hunter pet could do the same thing.
 >> Stay informed about: Slab Pugs (ugh) 

> Pets are not Offtanks, they should only be used as such in 2 cases:
> 1) NO ALTERNATIVE, like Underbog 3rd boss and you don't have a viable
> off tank.
> 2) EMERGENCIES, priest is getting bashed on, quick intimidate/growl to
> pull threat b4 he dies.

>A pet can offtank fine when needed. The 6 or 7 mob pulls before the
f>un time boss are often difficult due to a lack of CC. If you're
>short on CC then a hunters pet can be a very useful extra CC.

See number 1 above please.
> > 7. I am not specced for casting interrupts. Flagging the caster that
> > will do everything BUT run towards me without me running backwards
> > 40-50yds myself is not a good idea.

> Shouldn't be a problem for an experienced hunter, use LoS (Line of
> Sight) to your advantage.

>Line of sight pulls are not always possible so the experienced hunter
>is as stuck as the other hunters when that happens. Also, the
>hunter's trap is the most difficult CC to use against ranged attackers
>so if you have any other option at all then you should use that on the
>casters first.

I have never been to an instance where I absolutely couldn't LoS a
target,
furthermore the OP was stating he has to run back 40-50 yards for
caster,
I was just trying to give some advice on other ways to pull them.

> What is your justification for saying that? As the instances get
> harder (and definite no-no in heroic), yes I agree, but for many
> instances having a pet off tank is fine.
>
> And yes, I have tanked a lot at 70 as a feral druid.

My justification is there is absolutely no need for an OT in a 5 man
instance outside of a few boss fights. This is my opinion, but I run
balanced groups. I would rather have a pet doing dps, since a tank's
job is to absorb damage, why would you farm out a piece of that to a
party member that isn't as good at it? One of the best aspects of
WoW, is taking advantage of everyones potential together.

Tank takes less damage.
Priest only has to heal 1 target.
Priest only generates threat from heals off of one target, this target
happens to take the least amount of damage, therefore reducing the
healer's threat (if your pet gets insta-jibbed, priest is next)
Easier for other party members, helps with the all too common split
dps situation.

Flame me all you want, but there really is no good reason to have a
pet offtank if you have a balanced group. Most level 70 tanks can
hold threat on 3 mobs and stay up.
 >> Stay informed about: Slab Pugs (ugh) 

On Jun 5, 2:33 pm, "Shammy" <n....RemoveThis@nothing.com> wrote:
> N> Quote... yesterday i've played a wonderfull RAMP with me (hunta 70)
> N> and a friend of mine (hunta 69)... two pets made great tank (i know
> N> we were overlevel, but it was great) so... i think that if a pet 70
> N> can tank a 63+ mob, can also OT a 70+ for some precious seconds
>
> We need to divide instances in 2 category: 1. All normal instances 2.
> Heroics/raids
>
> For a player like me non heroics instances dont exsist

That's fine, but the original post was talking about a pet off tanking
in normal shadow labs. And that is perfectly possible, so I still
disagree with Osoris.
 >> Stay informed about: Slab Pugs (ugh) 

On Jun 5, 3:22 pm, Osoris <Joh....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Pets are not Offtanks, they should only be used as such in 2 cases:
>> > 1) NO ALTERNATIVE, like Underbog 3rd boss and you don't have a viable
>> > off tank.
>> > 2) EMERGENCIES, priest is getting bashed on, quick intimidate/growl to
>> > pull threat b4 he dies.
> > What is your justification for saying that? As the instances get
> > harder (and definite no-no in heroic), yes I agree, but for many
> > instances having a pet off tank is fine.
>
> > And yes, I have tanked a lot at 70 as a feral druid.
>
> My justification is there is absolutely no need for an OT in a 5 man
> instance outside of a few boss fights.  This is my opinion, but I run
> balanced groups.  I would rather have a pet doing dps, since a tank's
> job is to absorb damage, why would you farm out a piece of that to a
> party member that isn't as good at it?  One of the best aspects of
> WoW, is taking advantage of everyones potential together.
>
> Tank takes less damage.
> Priest only has to heal 1 target.
> Priest only generates threat from heals off of one target, this target
> happens to take the least amount of damage, therefore reducing the
> healer's threat (if your pet gets insta-jibbed, priest is next)
> Easier for other party members, helps with the all too common split
> dps situation.
>
> Flame me all you want, but there really is no good reason to have a
> pet offtank if you have a balanced group.  Most level 70 tanks can
> hold threat on 3 mobs and stay up.

Where did I flame you? I just disagreed with you. I agree with all of
the opinions above. As tank I would rather be the only one taking
damage, and agree that this makes the healers job much easier.

However, what about making the tanks job easier? In normal 5 mans,
having healed and tanked, tanking is harder by far. Not everyone
starts off with great tanking skills and not everyone can handle the
pressure of 7 mob pulls.

These days I definitely wouldn't have a pet off tank, my gear is good
enough to handle big pulls in heroics, and over time I've improved
where I can tank all of them fine, provided DPS isn't silly. But I
don't see a problem helping out a new tank if he asks by having a pet
off tank a single mob.
 >> Stay informed about: Slab Pugs (ugh) 

On Jun 5, 7:51 am, "Mark (newsgroups)" <marknewsgro... RemoveThis @yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On Jun 5, 3:22 pm, Osoris <Joh... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >> > Pets are not Offtanks, they should only be used as such in 2 cases:
> >> > 1) NO ALTERNATIVE, like Underbog 3rd boss and you don't have a viable
> >> > off tank.
> >> > 2) EMERGENCIES, priest is getting bashed on, quick intimidate/growl to
> >> > pull threat b4 he dies.
> > > What is your justification for saying that? As the instances get
> > > harder (and definite no-no in heroic), yes I agree, but for many
> > > instances having a pet off tank is fine.
>
> > > And yes, I have tanked a lot at 70 as a feral druid.
>
> > My justification is there is absolutely no need for an OT in a 5 man
> > instance outside of a few boss fights. This is my opinion, but I run
> > balanced groups. I would rather have a pet doing dps, since a tank's
> > job is to absorb damage, why would you farm out a piece of that to a
> > party member that isn't as good at it? One of the best aspects of
> > WoW, is taking advantage of everyones potential together.
>
> > Tank takes less damage.
> > Priest only has to heal 1 target.
> > Priest only generates threat from heals off of one target, this target
> > happens to take the least amount of damage, therefore reducing the
> > healer's threat (if your pet gets insta-jibbed, priest is next)
> > Easier for other party members, helps with the all too common split
> > dps situation.
>
> > Flame me all you want, but there really is no good reason to have a
> > pet offtank if you have a balanced group. Most level 70 tanks can
> > hold threat on 3 mobs and stay up.
>
> Where did I flame you? I just disagreed with you. I agree with all of
> the opinions above. As tank I would rather be the only one taking
> damage, and agree that this makes the healers job much easier.
>
> However, what about making the tanks job easier? In normal 5 mans,
> having healed and tanked, tanking is harder by far. Not everyone
> starts off with great tanking skills and not everyone can handle the
> pressure of 7 mob pulls.
>
> These days I definitely wouldn't have a pet off tank, my gear is good
> enough to handle big pulls in heroics, and over time I've improved
> where I can tank all of them fine, provided DPS isn't silly. But I
> don't see a problem helping out a new tank if he asks by having a pet
> off tank a single mob.

I don't see a problem in that either, above all people should listen
to their tanks. The biggest downfall of a group is anarchy and split
leadership. So if your tank tells you to do it, that should take
precedent to a point...I mean if he asks you to suicide yourself I
wouldn't do it, but far too many people don't listen to their tanks.
 >> Stay informed about: Slab Pugs (ugh) 

On 5 Jun 2008 06:40:00 GMT, kerri.DeleteThis@spamsucks.com wrote:

>> Lol! Thanks for that story, I'm planning to get that shield on my own
>> paladin... a nice warning to me to use a different one in groups then
>> ;-D
>
>If you want something really cool, take up engineering and get your hands on
>a [Force Reactive Disk], then go into Magister's Terrace and pull that whole
>room full of mana wyrms all at once.

Sounds good, and I am an engineer, although finding anyone who can make
an MC recipe drop nowadays could be interesting

>The Sporagger shield is well worth it. I'm still using it for farming at
>level 70 (the FRD loses durability very quickly and Sporagger is my backup)

Nice, it looks fantastic for it so it's very much in my plans whenever I
finally get around to levelling that character. One day....!
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair (70 Human Rogue)
Naomh (70 Draenei Priest)
Sagart (70 Undead Priest)
Rosad (70 Human Warlock)
Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock)
Sealgair (70 Dwarf Hunter)
Beag (60 Dwarf Paladin)
 >> Stay informed about: Slab Pugs (ugh) 

N> Quote... yesterday i've played a wonderfull RAMP with me (hunta 70)
N> and a friend of mine (hunta 69)... two pets made great tank (i know
N> we were overlevel, but it was great) so... i think that if a pet 70
N> can tank a 63+ mob, can also OT a 70+ for some precious seconds

We need to divide instances in 2 category: 1. All normal instances 2.
Heroics/raids

For a player like me non heroics instances dont exsist, I have been lvl 70
for over a year and have done all heroics lots of times with multiple chars.
When I talk about instances it's 99,9% about heroic versions. I'm saying
this because there are many pople here that also automaticly talk about
heroics instead of normal instances or specially if you are above the
instance level.

In heroic instances hunter pets can't tank and get killed in 1-2 hits and
the same goes for hunters who say they can get a few hits before retrapping,
it's not going to happen :p

Now there are normal instances where if you are not undergeared and the
right lvl you can take a few hits without any problems, and a pet can
offtank 1 mob without problems specially if healed.

So based on the way instances work people should always specify if they are
talking about heroic or normal versions.
 >> Stay informed about: Slab Pugs (ugh) 

ok there are a few exceptions but as someone said already they should be
used in emergencies and no alternative
 >> Stay informed about: Slab Pugs (ugh)