Ship happiness, skill and experience ...

On Jan 22, 10:21 pm, Phaidros <tiab... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> You missed some things

Oh, that happens a lot of times Which ones? (I do not suggest to
get rid of two of three 'abilities' but to summarize them into one
'ability')

Flynx
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

Well, ok, I'm not against reforming them either, though I don't know
whether I would like them to merge.

Right now I care only about skill. Why is that? Because it's the only
factor that is easily 'manipulable' by the player to serve his
tactical and strategic needs. I'm not saying that the other two are
not important. I just don't focus on them during game play.

I suspect that high 'ship happiness' has been important to success in
some of my battles, but it's a factor that usually is more or a less a
fixed value through the game as soon as the base happiness of my main
shipyard has risen high. I have never cared about raising ship
happiness further by staying over a base. A higher amount of joy
acquired through these port visits would strengthen that incentive. Or
perhaps one could install a means of throwing a party for the crew by
selling contraband to one's own ship. They gave out alcohol and
cigarettes to the soldiers in earthly wars ahead of important battles.

Neither is a ship's 'experience' taken into account when making my
game plans. I play a race whose ships have a low survival rate in
battle. I can't remember having gone ever above the 100 points
threshold on a ship. The highest ship experience usually is on my
starting ships. I'd welcome ideas that make ship experience in some
additional ways manipulable by the player.

It's probably too difficult to code but I like the idea of battle-
hardened ship crews - veterans of war - on ships with some experience
- transfering that experience to other ships via crew exchange. The
flow of knowledge would go from the ship with the highest experience
to any lower experienced ship, though with some loss involved as
rookies don't listen carefully to the gory stories of old men.

The current concept of ship experience right invokes the image of a
ship's big battle computer being the only one who gains from
participation in battles. The battle computer probably weeds out some
of its algorithms after seeing how long a Rebel wing's attack run
lasts on average or how cowardly Birdmen fight in combat.

Phaidros
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

Ok, I understand, but you wouldn't object if you can do all of this
and it would be just one 'ability'? You could manually raise this new
combined skill as before, it would raise through combats and so on. I
really don't see the need to keep skill, happiness and experience
seperated. At least not the way they're now.

Little is known where these values are important, or have at least
some influence, I think. Right now I remember only combat and
minelaying/sweeping - where else?

We can start to discuss about a new system here.

New skill:

Starting Value:
Depends on building place ('new skill' of dry docks, happiness on
bases) minus some random number

Benefits:
High values give advantages in combat, and some other ship device
usages. (Note: Privateers are training their people with high values,
so this would have to be taken into account somehow):
- Chances to hit enemy ship (bonus on attack value)
- Chances to evade (bonus on evade value)
- Chances to flee (unexperienced crews will try to flee early,
experienced crews will stay until ship is really in danger)
- Chances to ramming
- Chances for scanners
- Influences mine laying/sweeping

Raise 1 point/turn above an alien base (only if still below 50)
Raise 2 p/t above an own base (only if still below 75)
Raise 3 p/t above an own base with military spaceport (only if still
below 150)
Raise 1 p/t per survived combat
Raise 1 p/t per destroyed ship

Raise 1 p/t per successfull usage of ship device (* see below)

Lower 1 point per turn in space
Lower 1 point per sabotage action against that ship
Lower 1 point per unsuccessful boarding action (fight must have taken
place on board!)

more ideas?

Other ship devices have influence too (gambling deck, show lounge ...)

(*): Only some ship devices should work here: money machines like Lady
Royals don't raise experience. Also one could argue that ship devices
don't raise the combat experience. True, but a crew working together
and crew men used to each other might work more effectively even in
unusual situation. Also: Minelaying (or sweeping) right under the nose
of an enemy fleet does have to do with combat experience (see other
thread).

Flynx
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

On 23 Jan., 11:13, Flynx <gigaf....DeleteThis@gmx.net> wrote:
> Ok, I understand, but you wouldn't object if you can do all of this
> and it would be just one 'ability'? You could manually raise this new
> combined skill as before, it would raise through combats and so on. I
> really don't see the need to keep skill, happiness and experience
> seperated. At least not the way they're now.
>
> Little is known where these values are important, or have at least
> some influence, I think. Right now I remember only combat and
> minelaying/sweeping - where else?

For beginners Planets4 is a very complex game. As a veteran and since
the wiki solved all kinds of mysteries in the game I'm not fond of
reducing current complexity. Instead I tend to long for more.

These variables are important to combat but in quite different ways. I
wouldn't like a reform that merges them and in addition makes it a lot
easier to raise the new single variable's value. What I prefer is
better ways to incorporate them into player strategies.

Phaidros
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

Flynx writes
>... do we need all these? I don't see an advantage by discriminate
>between these. Or did I miss something?

Good point. Let's amalgamate them and simplify gameplay.

I don't know what happiness is used for anyhow. I've never seen a ship
defect...
--
KlingonKommand
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

Current influence and change proposal

There is this line in the code (if it's still up to date) that shows
how these variables affect behaviour in space combat:

# Decide to stay and fight by adding together: Anger, experience (max
300), shield (max 100), armor (max 300) / 3, skill (max 100) / 3, and
happiness (max 100) / 4.

As you can see, in theory experience is by far the most most important
factor and happiness the weakest followed by skill.

Though in games due to the slow accumulation of experience the shield
and armor components will usually be the two most important ones. I'd
like get rid of the low max bounds of 100 for skill and happiness as
well of the divisors applied to them or at least have them replaced by
smaller ones.

That change should be counter-balanced by a higher propensity to flee
if experience, skill or happiness don't contribute much.

Thus the game function would become more reactive to these variables.

Phaidros
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

On Feb 1, 12:23 pm, Phaidros <tiab....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Current influence and change proposal
(...)
I'd
> like get rid of the low max bounds of 100 for skill and happiness as
> well of the divisors applied to them or at least have them replaced by
> smaller ones.
(...)
> Thus the game function would become more reactive to these variables.
>
> Phaidros

Sorry, but I still see why you would like to keep these different
variables at all.

I would like to keep the influence of all actual variables, but
through a single, combined variable (perhaps we need two variables,
but certainly not three (skill, happiness and experience): One
'military skill' and one overall skill/happiness).

Similar, all actual influences that can change the current variables
should change the new single one as well (in some way).

The actual game play wouldn't change that much this way. And because
of this I don't need unneccessarily detailed (seperated) variables.
Frankly said: I just don't see any advantage having three variables
where I just need one (or two).
Flynx


Of course
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

It is one factor dependent on the birth of the ship and two factors
dependent on the course of life of the ship.

Change in skill is dependent on building the necessary base
structures. No investment of resources, no skills. You get punished
for being thrifty (and for evading the potential loss of a valuable
shipyard base to an enemy).

Change in experience is dependent on sending ships into combat. No
combat, no experience. You get punished for not taking the risk of
fighting (which can result in the potential loss of your ship.)

Change in happiness is - in theory - somewhat like a counter-mechanism
to the drive for experience accumulation by sending your ships around
all the time. IMO that's the mechanism that has the weakest argument
to go for it. I'd prefer happiness to degrade much faster and on the
other hand to rise also much faster through a port visit and to have
an influence on ship combat behavior only when reaching a very high
level of happiness.

Phaidros
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

"Phaidros" <tiaboli DeleteThis @hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:5f08cbb9-07ce-4263-82e1-c29f727362be@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> It is one factor dependent on the birth of the ship and two factors
> dependent on the course of life of the ship.
>
> Change in skill is dependent on building the necessary base
> structures. No investment of resources, no skills. You get punished
> for being thrifty (and for evading the potential loss of a valuable
> shipyard base to an enemy).
>
> Change in experience is dependent on sending ships into combat. No
> combat, no experience. You get punished for not taking the risk of
> fighting (which can result in the potential loss of your ship.)
>
> Change in happiness is - in theory - somewhat like a counter-mechanism
> to the drive for experience accumulation by sending your ships around
> all the time. IMO that's the mechanism that has the weakest argument
> to go for it. I'd prefer happiness to degrade much faster and on the
> other hand to rise also much faster through a port visit and to have
> an influence on ship combat behavior only when reaching a very high
> level of happiness.
>
> Phaidros

What if skill would be dropped and be replaced with a higher starting
experience?

Cheers,
Jochen
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

They have different principles and they relate to different things
(ramming, boarding). Why should we merge these together?

Phaidros
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

Phaidros writes
>They have different principles and they relate to different things
>(ramming, boarding). Why should we merge these together?

In English, Skill and Experience are very closely related words. It's
confusing having to remember which one is relevant to what.
--
KlingonKommand
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

If I were not such a lazy guy I would have written a long, principled
thesis as soon as this thread started, explaining why I think that
reducing Planets4 to multi-player chess with a small set of game rules
that everyone knows by hand is not a good idea.

We will never get a Planets5 (at least that is my interpretation of
Tims slowdowned enthusiasm for the game. I understand that. Priorities
in life simply change.) Therefore we as a community should strive to
squeeze the maximum out of the data structure of Planets4!

This game thrives on complexity and the huge reservoir of game tactics
complexity provides. You can learn to be a expert player and forget
about some basic techniques in the process, because you did not use
them for some time with the race you are dominantly playing. That is
fine with me, because it is one source of attraction to the game.
Rookies may sometimes get overwhelmed by this complexity, but the
longer you stay with the game the more you need it to keep attracted.

I dread the day when I think I know it all and I will have to go and
participate in some artifical world game because I cannot look in awe
and surprise anymore at what others were able to do to me in this
game.

Dont get me wrong here. There are quite a few weaknesses in some game
mechanisms and some variables have already been dropped by Tim in the
process of adapting the game to the communitys wishes. Addressing the
first problem we should think of ideas how to improve these game
mechanisms (e.g. ship happiness) to make them interesting and to add
them to our tactis. Addressing the second we should enter discussions
how to revive these variables (anger, rogue natives, what else?).

Lets stop this trend toward classicist reductionism and opt for
baroque opulence instead!
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ... 

> Lets stop this trend toward classicist reductionism and opt for
> baroque opulence instead!

I heartily agree to this statement. Even though I will never have the
time to discover all secrets (ans as a consequence remain a mediocre
player) they are the reason to keep stuck with the game.
On the other hand, I dislike totally confusing tiny bits of rules
which no one can keep track of.
So, keep all three (experience, happiness, skill).
Give each one a unique purpose or aim.
Let them have an impact in their field that is to be considered in
calculations.

Suggestions:
Experience - Derived from combat and drives combat.
Skill - All around devices
Happiness - Builts a limit for the upper two (Exp = Min (Exp; Happ))

Joyride
 >> Stay informed about: Ship happiness, skill and experience ...