Shaman and Slow Weapons

On May 16, 9:52 am, Areric <josh.schr....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey all ,
>
> Ive heard over and over that for an enhancement shaman dual wielding
> slower weapons are better. It has something to do with windfury procs
> but i don't quite get why.
>
> Also any shammys out there have suggestions on the best weapon type?
> Right now im using a mace (no dual wield yet) but im open to training
> something else if there are better options.

I believe the essence of it is that Windfury gives a bonus 2 blows
with a flat AP bonus. If you get an extra 2 swings with your weapon,
it will deliver more damage if they are big swats (e.g. slow mace/axe)
rather than fast little pinpricks from a dagger. I understand that,
in the off-hand, the Windfury AP bonus is *not* halved, making it a
marginally better enhancement for that slot, if you have a suitable
(i.e. slow) weapon.

As you are leveling, use the best weapons you can lay your hands on.
Don't prefer the 20 DPS mace to the 30 DPS dagger, just because it is
slower. If you find yourself with a slow main hand weapon but a fast
off-hand, then use Flametongue on the off-hand instead. Flametongue
is also a better option for Elemental shamans with lots of
+spelldamage gear or against heavily armored opponents (melee damage
is mitigated by armor, spell damage is not).

Unless you are an orc, there is no mechanical reason to prefer any
particular weapon type (axe/mace/dagger). If you get your hands on a
good axe, for example, and you haven't used one in the last 20 levels,
then go skill up in a lower level area or by doing a very green (i.e.
lower level) quest. In a relatively short time, you should be up to a
useful skill.

- Prelgor
 >> Stay informed about: Shaman and Slow Weapons 

On May 16, 12:54 pm, Areric <josh.schr... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> Heck while im at it any input on gear ordering. Specifically do i want
> Str -> Agi -> AP -> Crit -> Int??? Not sure what order i wanna focus.
> Ive heard Shamans should focus on AP but you get more bang for the
> buck getting +str gear than +ap gear.

I'm a pretty noob shammy (my shammy is only level 34), but I'd
personally go:

Str > AP > Crit > Agi > Int/Sta

You normally get 2 AP per 1 point of Strength, so it's your top stat
(but always do the math - while 20 STR is certainly better than 32 AP,
45 AP would be better than 20 STR).

AP would come before Crit/Agi. Reason is that AP on most leather gear
before 40 has to be balanced against rogues, feral druids, and
hunters, and mail gear past 40 has to be balanaced against hunters.
They all get AP (ranged only for hunters, but that's their main type)
from Agility, so it's normally kept in check balance wise. All
Agility is going to give you is crit rating. Straight AP will benefit
more than that, and that aside, straight crit rating will be better
than Agility because it gives proportionally more crit (because
Agility giving the same crit rating to you would buff a other classes
too much).

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: Shaman and Slow Weapons 

OK so basically what im reading is it isnt about weapon speed but raw
damage. Slow weapons tend to do more damage as part of the trade off.
That makes sense

Thanks
 >> Stay informed about: Shaman and Slow Weapons 

In <044a0951-768d-443f-bfc4-725b577426ab DeleteThis @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> Areric <josh.schramm DeleteThis @gmail.com> writes:

> Ive heard over and over that for an enhancement shaman dual wielding
> slower weapons are better. It has something to do with windfury procs
> but i don't quite get why.

Windfury gives you extra free attacks. If you're using slow high-damage
weapons, those free attacks will hit for more.

Imagine you're offered a free sandwich. Would you choose a small, wimpy
egg salad sandwich, or a big juicy sloppy double cheeseburger? Same
principle -- it's free, so you want the biggest one you can get.

--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gordon DeleteThis @panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"
 >> Stay informed about: Shaman and Slow Weapons 

"John Gordon" <gordon.RemoveThis@panix.com> wrote in message
news:g0kfj5$ans$1@reader2.panix.com...
> In <044a0951-768d-443f-bfc4-725b577426ab.RemoveThis@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>
Areric <josh.schramm.RemoveThis@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
> Windfury gives you extra free attacks. If you're using slow high-damage
> weapons, those free attacks will hit for more.
>

I've often heard this argument before, and not knowing the actual mechanics
of winfury, have been concerned by it.

I assume that windfury has a chance on hit to process (but am not sure). If
this is the case a slow hard hitting weapon should process for much higher
damage, but a faster punier weapon should proccess much more often. Thus,
windfury would over time average out to be exactly the same between two
weapons of equal dps, regardless of raw weapon damage.

Can anyone comment on this more knowledgeably than I?

Craig
 >> Stay informed about: Shaman and Slow Weapons 

In <_JlXj.29$HJ5.3@trnddc01> "Craig Douglas" <cjdd DeleteThis @verizon.net> writes:

> but a faster punier weapon should [proc] much more often

If each strike had the same chance to proc an enchant, you'd be right.
But that's not how they work.

Proccing weapon enchants have internal logic that smooths out the number
of procs, so all weapons from the fastest dagger to the slowest two-handed
axe will have about the same number of procs *per minute*.

--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gordon DeleteThis @panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"
 >> Stay informed about: Shaman and Slow Weapons 

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Gordon" <gordon DeleteThis @panix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.games.warcraft
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Shaman and Slow Weapons


> In <_JlXj.29$HJ5.3@trnddc01> "Craig Douglas" <cjdd DeleteThis @verizon.net> writes:
>
> > but a faster punier weapon should [proc] much more often
>
> If each strike had the same chance to proc an enchant, you'd be right.
> But that's not how they work.
>
> Proccing weapon enchants have internal logic that smooths out the number
> of procs, so all weapons from the fastest dagger to the slowest two-handed
> axe will have about the same number of procs *per minute*.
>


Ah, thanks for that. Good to know.
 >> Stay informed about: Shaman and Slow Weapons 

"Craig Douglas" <cjdd DeleteThis @verizon.net> writes:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Gordon" <gordon DeleteThis @panix.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.games.warcraft
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 4:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Shaman and Slow Weapons
>
>
>> In <_JlXj.29$HJ5.3@trnddc01> "Craig Douglas" <cjdd DeleteThis @verizon.net> writes:
>>
>> > but a faster punier weapon should [proc] much more often
>>
>> If each strike had the same chance to proc an enchant, you'd be right.
>> But that's not how they work.
>>
>> Proccing weapon enchants have internal logic that smooths out the number
>> of procs, so all weapons from the fastest dagger to the slowest two-handed
>> axe will have about the same number of procs *per minute*.
>>
>
>
> Ah, thanks for that. Good to know.

It's not actually true though. Some weapon procs do work on a
procs-per-minute basis (seal of command being a prime example), but
windfury isn't one of them.

The main reason why you don't want to use fast weapons as a shaman is
that windfury has a 3 second cooldown; after a windfury proc it's
impossible to get another one until 3 seconds have passed. This is
also why you want your main hand and off-hand weapons to have the same
speed. If your off-hand is faster you risk it "stealing" potential
procs from the mainhand, reducing your dps significantly.

--
Top-posting makes baby Jesus cry
 >> Stay informed about: Shaman and Slow Weapons 

"Freddie Freeloader" wrote

> The main reason why you don't want to use fast weapons as a shaman is
> that windfury has a 3 second cooldown; after a windfury proc it's
> impossible to get another one until 3 seconds have passed.

Right.

> This is
> also why you want your main hand and off-hand weapons to have the same
> speed. If your off-hand is faster you risk it "stealing" potential
> procs from the mainhand, reducing your dps significantly.

That's why you don't use Windfury on the off-hand.
 >> Stay informed about: Shaman and Slow Weapons 

"Wolfie" <bgbdwolf.DeleteThis@gte.net> writes:

> "Freddie Freeloader" wrote
>
>> The main reason why you don't want to use fast weapons as a shaman is
>> that windfury has a 3 second cooldown; after a windfury proc it's
>> impossible to get another one until 3 seconds have passed.
>
> Right.
>
>> This is
>> also why you want your main hand and off-hand weapons to have the same
>> speed. If your off-hand is faster you risk it "stealing" potential
>> procs from the mainhand, reducing your dps significantly.
>
> That's why you don't use Windfury on the off-hand.

If you don't use windfury on the off-hand you're reducing your dps potential.
Despite the cooldown it's still the best enchant for both hands.
There have been many tests run to confirm this, check out the elitist
jerks forums if you want to see some details.


--
Top-posting makes baby Jesus cry
 >> Stay informed about: Shaman and Slow Weapons 

On May 16, 5:52 pm, Areric <josh.schr... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey all ,
>
> Ive heard over and over that for an enhancement shaman dual wielding
> slower weapons are better. It has something to do with windfury procs
> but i don't quite get why.
>
> Also any shammys out there have suggestions on the best weapon type?
> Right now im using a mace (no dual wield yet) but im open to training
> something else if there are better options.

As I understand it, it's because of Windfury. Windfury damage is a
function of weapon damage, and Windfury also has an internal cooldown
of about 3s between procs.

Because of the cooldown, fast weapons will proc Windfury only a very
small bit faster on average. So the higher damage on each proc makes
slow weapons more effective.

- Gerry Quinn
 >> Stay informed about: Shaman and Slow Weapons