Sci-fi and fantasy combined

External Since: Apr 07, 2005 Posts: 14

On a dark an' dismal Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:22:01 GMT, in flickering lamplight, "Michael W. Ryder"
<_mwryder RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net> scribed with phoenix qill :

<<#>>
>A person familiar with Windows and modern text editors would have a very
>hard time with punch cards, or even worse switches to program a
>computer. Learning how to get information from a TL6 computer would
>require knowing the proper commands to enter into the command line and
>how to use a line editor. Yes, a person could learn these fairly
>quickly, but they would not be able to go into a 1950's computer shop
>and start working effectively without the prep time.

Inflicting that on your players would be a little mean, don't you think?
On command line details, I'd not include that as a Computer Skill
problem if they had net access, or even the manual.
At worst I'd go for an IQ roll for educated guesses, none if they have 'Programming'.
Just one thing, this is sort of an example of computers incorporating / emulating
other devices to make things easier.
Do you call a word processor program a use of "Typist" skill or "Computer".
Would you permit a computer user a basic skill of "Manual Typewriter" ?

>If you have only worked on cars with computerized fuel injectors and
>ignition working on a car with a very simple carburetor, gravity fed
>gas, and a magneto is going to take some time. You may know the basics
>of what you are trying to accomplish but would have no ideas on how to
>set jets and floats, adjust points and timing, etc., along with not
>being aware that you may need to drive your car backwards up some hills.

Yes... No, sorry i can't go with that, because by this logic,
you could never tinker with machines of any differing tech level.
Would you tell players that a steam engine's a tech level penalty to comprehend ?
If you purchased it with Cp, it should be broad and deep in scope so that
your 'Grease Monkey' can scavenge parts, or your Techie rig up a Frankenstein
nightmare of TL6 Computer with, say, his TL8 counterpart.
If it's a matter of extracting data, they should a least be able to remove,
or copy, the hard storage.
All with their own tech level tools, nevermind what that storage type was.

>>> If one had training in different tech levels, like a lot of modern
>>> repair persons who have worked in the field for the last forty years,
>>> the penalty should go away.

So then you will have to cope with:-
Is that really a tech level shift?
Shouldn't i still get a penalty on this, since my character has never worked on 'x' before, but it's still my
tech level?

>> But i don't look at tech levels like separate disciplines, because they arn't.
>> Each level, supposedly, represents a degree of comprehension on the way the universe works.
>> As you go up, the sophistication and understanding builds on the prior level.
>> Thus it makes no sense at all to penalise when the *character* is supposed to possess a greater understanding
>> of the device he or she is working on, than it's original inventors' ever did.
>>
>
>At the same time our knowledge increases some knowledge is "lost". When
>was the last time you saw a tube tester at Radio Shack?

Heh, I've never Seen a Radio Shack Smile

>Most technicians today are taught to replace a board or the entire product
>rather than try to determine what is wrong or how to fix it.

You must admit that asking them to fix an IC is a little much !
Usually the cost to fix things like this, in parts and labour,
exceeds the price for a new one.
(I don't like it, but that's our wasteful tech level.)

>> This is something i note about tech and maj.
>> A tech device you'd expect to work everywhere, example:
>> Zap a man and his machine gun back in time to say hi to the dinosaurs.
>> But zap a Mage back to the same point, and you would be asked about the local Manna level.
>> And he'd hope that it supports his spells.
>> Tech level's just how much we know today, and the things made from that knowledge could have been built at any
>> point in time, and this would not change how they work, or prevent them from operating normally.
>>
>> I doubt that the original intent was a spell to do the same things required at every single tech level !

My poorly made point here, was that the magic needs the manna levels, but the tech can mosey on just fine.
Move into a tech level 0 world and it does nothing to prevent your TL8 Knowhow from working.

>> Can you follow my logic?
>
>To a point. Like I posted, there should be some penalty when first using
>"unknown" technology items, but it should go away fairly quickly if you
>have training in a different TL.

I would have accepted that if it were 'new' science, or even a particular variant.
But in the main, if a character is technologically savvy, they should be able to
deal with lower tech with no penalty, sometimes even an advantage.

>There is a spell in GURPS 3, don't
>remember it's name and am not sure if it is in 4, where the person could
>take control of a machine. If he is familiar with the technology of the
>machine, say a modern computer, then there should be no problem. But
>trying the same spell on Eniac is going to present some problems. For
>one, the current program in the computer may not allow the caster to do
>what he wants to do. Without knowing how to get around this problem is
>going to take some time and knowledge.

Humm. "If he is familiar with the technology..." would that mean the mage
needs an appropriate skill? Such as 'Computer Use' or 'Programming' or
just that they have been around these things?
Would this, if cast on a door lock, permit them to lock and unlock the door,
without 'Locksmith' skill? Or if it was electronic system 'Hacking' ?
You see, i think that the Magic should permit Enaic to be locked
into outputting 'Daisy Daisy', otherwise you haven't taken control at all.

Mike

External Since: Jul 18, 2005 Posts: 286

mike wrote:
> On a dark an' dismal Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:22:01 GMT, in flickering lamplight, "Michael W. Ryder"
> <_mwryder.RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net> scribed with phoenix qill :
>
> <<#>>
>> A person familiar with Windows and modern text editors would have a very
>> hard time with punch cards, or even worse switches to program a
>> computer. Learning how to get information from a TL6 computer would
>> require knowing the proper commands to enter into the command line and
>> how to use a line editor. Yes, a person could learn these fairly
>> quickly, but they would not be able to go into a 1950's computer shop
>> and start working effectively without the prep time.
>
> Inflicting that on your players would be a little mean, don't you think?
> On command line details, I'd not include that as a Computer Skill
> problem if they had net access, or even the manual.
> At worst I'd go for an IQ roll for educated guesses, none if they have 'Programming'.
> Just one thing, this is sort of an example of computers incorporating / emulating
> other devices to make things easier.
> Do you call a word processor program a use of "Typist" skill or "Computer".
> Would you permit a computer user a basic skill of "Manual Typewriter" ?
>

It may be funny watching a modern user trying to use an old Underwood
manual typewriter. The first time it came to the end of the line and
didn't automatically skip to a next line and they tried to figure out
what to do. Or they tried to center and bold a line. Or like the
famous scene in the Star Trek movie where they try to control the
computer by talking to it and then the mouse.
My point is that there will be a difference when using older technology
with newer skills, some will be easy to overcome, others may be much
harder, but it shouldn't be trivial.

>> If you have only worked on cars with computerized fuel injectors and
>> ignition working on a car with a very simple carburetor, gravity fed
>> gas, and a magneto is going to take some time. You may know the basics
>> of what you are trying to accomplish but would have no ideas on how to
>> set jets and floats, adjust points and timing, etc., along with not
>> being aware that you may need to drive your car backwards up some hills.
>
> Yes... No, sorry i can't go with that, because by this logic,
> you could never tinker with machines of any differing tech level.
> Would you tell players that a steam engine's a tech level penalty to comprehend ?
> If you purchased it with Cp, it should be broad and deep in scope so that
> your 'Grease Monkey' can scavenge parts, or your Techie rig up a Frankenstein
> nightmare of TL6 Computer with, say, his TL8 counterpart.
> If it's a matter of extracting data, they should a least be able to remove,
> or copy, the hard storage.
> All with their own tech level tools, nevermind what that storage type was.
>

Tinkering with equipment or raw data is different from using them
effectively. You may be able to figure out in a couple of minutes how
to use an old piece of equipment if you know what it is supposed to do
and have familiarity with a modern equivalent. If you don't have enough
information, say of a file format and encoding, it will be much harder
to use.

>>>> If one had training in different tech levels, like a lot of modern
>>>> repair persons who have worked in the field for the last forty years,
>>>> the penalty should go away.
>
> So then you will have to cope with:-
> Is that really a tech level shift?
> Shouldn't i still get a penalty on this, since my character has never worked on 'x' before, but it's still my
> tech level?
>
Since a lot of people have problems programming their VCR, I would say yes.

>>> But i don't look at tech levels like separate disciplines, because they arn't.
>>> Each level, supposedly, represents a degree of comprehension on the way the universe works.
>>> As you go up, the sophistication and understanding builds on the prior level.
>>> Thus it makes no sense at all to penalise when the *character* is supposed to possess a greater understanding
>>> of the device he or she is working on, than it's original inventors' ever did.
>>>
>> At the same time our knowledge increases some knowledge is "lost". When
>> was the last time you saw a tube tester at Radio Shack?
>
> Heh, I've never Seen a Radio Shack Smile

>
>> Most technicians today are taught to replace a board or the entire product
>> rather than try to determine what is wrong or how to fix it.
>
> You must admit that asking them to fix an IC is a little much !
> Usually the cost to fix things like this, in parts and labour,
> exceeds the price for a new one.
> (I don't like it, but that's our wasteful tech level.)
>

My training included trouble shooting circuit boards down to the the IC
level. I couldn't fix a faulty IC but I could specify that it was the
problem. A lot of repair work now is just replacing parts until it
works or just throw it out and replace with a new one. Could someone
trained in this mentality understand how an old Zenith tube radio worked ?

>>> This is something i note about tech and maj.
>>> A tech device you'd expect to work everywhere, example:
>>> Zap a man and his machine gun back in time to say hi to the dinosaurs.
>>> But zap a Mage back to the same point, and you would be asked about the local Manna level.
>>> And he'd hope that it supports his spells.
>>> Tech level's just how much we know today, and the things made from that knowledge could have been built at any
>>> point in time, and this would not change how they work, or prevent them from operating normally.
>>>
>>> I doubt that the original intent was a spell to do the same things required at every single tech level !
>
> My poorly made point here, was that the magic needs the manna levels, but the tech can mosey on just fine.
> Move into a tech level 0 world and it does nothing to prevent your TL8 Knowhow from working.
>

But would your TL8 gunsmithing skill work in this environment? You
would not have access to the machines or components used with your
knowledge. Your knowledge is still there, but until you can build up
the infrastructure to build the machines to build the stuff you know how
to do it will not be much use.

>>> Can you follow my logic?
>> To a point. Like I posted, there should be some penalty when first using
>> "unknown" technology items, but it should go away fairly quickly if you
>> have training in a different TL.
>
> I would have accepted that if it were 'new' science, or even a particular variant.
> But in the main, if a character is technologically savvy, they should be able to
> deal with lower tech with no penalty, sometimes even an advantage.
>

Using my previous example, a TL8 gunsmith would be at an advantage
repairing a TL5 (?) wheel lock rifle in his shop, at least until he
tries to use modern powders in that rifle. But I don't think he would
be as competent in a TL5 shop trying to repair that same rifle with the
TL5 tools. And he would be totally lost trying to repair a TL7 M16 if
he had to replace any parts.

>> There is a spell in GURPS 3, don't
>> remember it's name and am not sure if it is in 4, where the person could
>> take control of a machine. If he is familiar with the technology of the
>> machine, say a modern computer, then there should be no problem. But
>> trying the same spell on Eniac is going to present some problems. For
>> one, the current program in the computer may not allow the caster to do
>> what he wants to do. Without knowing how to get around this problem is
>> going to take some time and knowledge.
>
> Humm. "If he is familiar with the technology..." would that mean the mage
> needs an appropriate skill? Such as 'Computer Use' or 'Programming' or
> just that they have been around these things?
> Would this, if cast on a door lock, permit them to lock and unlock the door,
> without 'Locksmith' skill? Or if it was electronic system 'Hacking' ?
> You see, i think that the Magic should permit Enaic to be locked
> into outputting 'Daisy Daisy', otherwise you haven't taken control at all.
>

Most early computer were programmed by patch cables, and later by
switches. I worked on an early minicomputer that filled an entire desk.
To start the computer you had to flip some switches to have it read a
punched paper tape to load the program to use the IBM Selectric
typewriter for IO. How is magic going to replicate this without some
knowledge?
I am not saying that magic shouldn't be able to replace technology, but
that a spell is only as good as the person that created or is using it.
It cannot create knowledge unless you get into the very powerful
spells, and at that point why are you trying to get a piece of
technology to do something that is easier for you with magic?

> Mike