Sci-fi and fantasy combined

On a dark an' dismal Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:42:51
-0800 (PST), in flickering lamplight,
"blksupermn@aol.com" <blksupermn RemoveThis @aol.com> scribed
with phoenix qill :

>I want to start a gurps campaign with my friends and myself as GM. I
>am interested in doing something the combines magic, monsters, and
>prophecies with outer space and laser swords, laser pistols, psionics
>and robots. It will take place in the very distant future.

I'm a bit rusty on Gurps rules, but i wanted to
add my 2p

The way i'd work this would be to take "in the
very distant future" and throw in the "advanced
technology" Clarke quote.
Bottom line :A Sci-fi is a Fantasy there is no
real distinction other than game flavour.
Mechanically it works in just the same manner.
Ie: Plasma Pistol [the ZX4-K ]: Clip 20rds, damage
2d10+10 or overcharge 4rds 4d12
compare with.
Rishkla's Wand of the Inferno: Charges 20,
Firebolt dmg 2d10+10 cost charges 1 or Fireball
4d12 at charges 4, can also ignite fires [ -1 mana
from user]

Or you could go with a Clash of realms idea =Magic
exists and Technology is a form of magic.
So anything goes ! Just be consistent.
Don't fall foul of the trap i keep stumbling
into: Needless complexity.
<Underline> More important is to have Fun.
</Underline>

Mik

Mik

--

The line below is true.
The line above is false... Honest.
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

blksupermn.TakeThisOut@aol.com wrote:
> I want to start a gurps campaign with my friends and myself as GM. I
> am interested in doing something the combines magic, monsters, and
> prophecies with outer space and laser swords, laser pistols, psionics
> and robots. It will take place in the very distant future. Maybe a
> space opera similar to Star Wars. Are there any sourse books that do
> any thing remotely like this or will I just have to do all the work
> myself?

For official sourcebooks I'd look at GURPS Traveller: Alien Races
( http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/AlienRaces/ ), still
available from Steve Jackson Games (cheap). The Zhodani are a
human culture based around psionics and might make a good
starting point for you.

Beyond that there's not much official, but if you look around the
net you can probably find stuff. My own Fantasy Stars game (
http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/FantasyStars.html )
never attracted much of a response and so was never developed
very far. GURPS is a modular system, so it's easy to add stuff.
Keep in mind that it's easier to add things than get rid of
them if you decide you don't like them.

--
Jefferson
http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

On Dec 25, 1:30 pm, Jefferson <Jeff_Wilso....RemoveThis@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> blksupe....RemoveThis@aol.com wrote:
> > I want to start a gurps campaign with my friends and myself as GM. I
> > am interested in doing something the combines magic, monsters, and
> > prophecies with outer space and laser swords, laser pistols, psionics
> > and robots. It will take place in the very distant future. Maybe a
> > space opera similar to Star Wars. Are there any sourse books that do
> > any thing remotely like this or will I just have to do all the work
> > myself?
>
> For official sourcebooks I'd look at GURPS Traveller: Alien Races
> (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/AlienRaces/), still
> available from Steve Jackson Games (cheap).  The Zhodani are a
> human culture based around psionics and might make a good
> starting point for you.
>
> Beyond that there's not much official, but if you look around the
> net you can probably find stuff.  My own Fantasy Stars game (http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/FantasyStars.html)
> never attracted much of a response and so was never developed
> very far.  GURPS is a modular system, so it's easy to add stuff.
>   Keep in mind that it's easier to add things than get rid of
> them if you decide you don't like them.
>
> --
> Jeffersonhttp://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/

GURPS + StarWars? I like this idea: How many points? What Tech Level?
Any hints / guidelines? esviesso.RemoveThis@yahoo.com
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

blksupermn.TakeThisOut@aol.com <blksupermn.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
> I want to start a gurps campaign with my friends and myself as GM. I
> am interested in doing something the combines magic, monsters, and
> prophecies with outer space and laser swords, laser pistols, psionics
> and robots. It will take place in the very distant future. Maybe a
> space opera similar to Star Wars.

Apart from Star Wars, your description also makes me think of Fading Suns
(a RPG) and Warhammer 40,000 (setting for a tabletop wargame).

> Are there any sourse books that do
> any thing remotely like this or will I just have to do all the work
> myself? Thank for reading this post and for possibly replying.

There's no official GURPS setting that has everything you're looking
for straight from the book. There is GURPS Cthulhupunk which deals
with Lovecraftian monsters in a cyberpunk world, and GURPS Technomancer
deals specifically with a world that has both technology and magic.
You could combine one of these with GURPS Traveller or your own GURPS
Space setting. Or you could simply do all your own work with GURPS
Space and GURPS Magic. Throw in Psionics, Voodoo perhaps, and throw
in lots of monsters.

The main questions you need to answer are:
* When there are laser pistols, why do people use swords?
* If magic is so great, why do people use technology?
* If technology is so great, why do people use magic?

Valid answers could range from "because it's cool!" to a very subtle
balance where magic and tech enhance or oppose each other.


mcv.
--
Science is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. It's a tool.
A very powerful tool, but not the only tool. And if only that which
could be verified scientifically was considered real, then nearly all
of human experience would be not-real. -- Zachriel
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

Korin Duval <korinNOduvalSPAM.DeleteThis@yahoo.it> wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:42:51 -0800 (PST), "blksupermn@aol.com"
> <blksupermn.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>I want to start a gurps campaign with my friends and myself as GM. I
>>am interested in doing something the combines magic, monsters, and
>>prophecies with outer space and laser swords, laser pistols, psionics
>>and robots. It will take place in the very distant future. Maybe a
>>space opera similar to Star Wars. Are there any sourse books that do
>>any thing remotely like this or will I just have to do all the work
>>myself?
>
> You could go for a "no-mith-campaign".
> Just start out with what your players want "to be there", then add
> according to your taste.

This is a really great idea. Unfortunately, when I tried it, my players
insisted on a bit more structure than that.

But the inherent point balance in GURPS means you can easily throw
whatever stuff you like into the campaign, without fearing serious
imbalance between the psionic voodoo cyborg and the skilled guy with
a gun.

> Or, you could just go for "Let's do Star Wars, our way".

If you want as little work as possible, this is what I'd go with.
Don't try to stick to any official canon, just invent worlds, powers
and abilities as you go along. The Star Wars movies basically do the
same thing.


mcv.
--
Science is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. It's a tool.
A very powerful tool, but not the only tool. And if only that which
could be verified scientifically was considered real, then nearly all
of human experience would be not-real. -- Zachriel
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

On Dec 25, 1:30 pm, Jefferson <Jeff_Wilso....RemoveThis@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> blksupe....RemoveThis@aol.com wrote:
> > I want to start a gurps campaign with my friends and myself as GM. I
> > am interested in doing something the combines magic, monsters, and
> > prophecies with outer space and laser swords, laser pistols, psionics
> > and robots. It will take place in the very distant future. Maybe a
> > space opera similar to Star Wars. Are there any sourse books that do
> > any thing remotely like this or will I just have to do all the work
> > myself?
>
> For official sourcebooks I'd look at GURPS Traveller: Alien Races
> (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/AlienRaces/), still
> available from Steve Jackson Games (cheap).  The Zhodani are a
> human culture based around psionics and might make a good
> starting point for you.
>
> Beyond that there's not much official, but if you look around the
> net you can probably find stuff.  My own Fantasy Stars game (http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/FantasyStars.html)
> never attracted much of a response and so was never developed
> very far.  GURPS is a modular system, so it's easy to add stuff.
>   Keep in mind that it's easier to add things than get rid of
> them if you decide you don't like them.
>
> --
> Jeffersonhttp://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
Traveler = Star Wars Great idea! Where will you be posting this
game????
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

On Tue, 25 Dec 2007 13:15:42 +0000, mike
<mike.RemoveThis@invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

[...]
>The way i'd work this would be to take "in the
>very distant future" and throw in the "advanced
>technology" Clarke quote.
>Bottom line :A Sci-fi is a Fantasy there is no
>real distinction other than game flavour.
>Mechanically it works in just the same manner.
[...]

I'd like to add my 0.02 Euro to your 2p. ^__^

Keep in mind that, for reasonable point totals for PCs, it's the
equipment that makes the difference.

I mean, if magic is clumpsy, slow, difficult, and guns are TL8, then
most people wanting to kill anyone else will go for guns, and leave
magic for other tasks... Unless there's a readily available method to
"counteract" guns.

If there's a magic device costing 10$ that stops bullets and you can
find it at Wal-Mart, well, guns don't seem SO powerful, do they?

If you're going for a campaign where _everything_ is paid by CP (and
is usually innate with the character), you can go more safely with the
"anything goes".



On the side of "flavor", you can do, basically, 3 things:

1) Magic and Tech are equal (as in the example by Mike)

2) Magic and Tech co-exist, people can use both, and have different
uses. No need to balance them, they're just different (as in "Driving
is different from Stealth") and people will chose what they like.

3) Magic and Tech are mutual exclusive (Red Alert! Game balance issues
incoming!!!)


Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

>>>>> "KD" == Korin Duval <korinNOduvalSPAM.RemoveThis@yahoo.it> writes:

KD> I mean, if magic is clumpsy, slow, difficult, and guns are
KD> TL8, then most people wanting to kill anyone else will go for
KD> guns, and leave magic for other tasks... Unless there's a
KD> readily available method to "counteract" guns.

This is easily balanced in "secret magic" worlds -- guns are cheap and
easy, but the police understand guns and forensics, and will come
after you if you kill someone with them. If someone died of an
apparent heart attack, on the other hand, who but a nutcase will
suspect magic, since everyone *knows* there's no such thing?

Under the Cabal magic rules, for instance, magic is slow and
difficult, but it has significant advantages over guns. So there are
reasons to use guns, and reasons to use magic.

KD> If you're going for a campaign where _everything_ is paid by
KD> CP (and is usually innate with the character), you can go more
KD> safely with the "anything goes".

I think that most widely available equipment falls under the "anything
available to all the characters costs 0 points" rubric. If the
equipment is *not* widely available to all characters, *then* it
should cost points -- or, perhaps, the inability to purchase guns
should be a disadvantage. (Social Stigma, -2, Convicted Felon?)

Charlton


--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur.RemoveThis@chromatico.net
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

On a dark an' dismal Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:48:18 GMT, in flickering lamplight, korinNOduvalSPAM.RemoveThis@yahoo.it (Korin
Duval) scribed with phoenix qill :

>I'd like to add my 0.02 Euro to your 2p. ^__^

Humm... What’s the exchange rate?

>Keep in mind that, for reasonable point totals for PCs, it's the
>equipment that makes the difference.
>
>I mean, if magic is clumpsy, slow, difficult, and guns are TL8, then
>most people wanting to kill anyone else will go for guns, and leave
>magic for other tasks... Unless there's a readily available method to
>"counteract" guns.

Actually, your example’s more like "it’s the universe that makes the difference"
:-/
Wise spending of character points has always been an issue.
As I said earlier, bit gurps rusty.
I’m unfamiliar on how the game’s changed, but last time I looked it was built in that tech was a limiting
factor on magic.
If I recall the right game rules, I was surprised by my GM once when I was informed that a spell was harder
(to cast, and design) because the tech level was lower than my own. Now I couldn’t accept that, and argued
that if it was higher, significantly so, it would make some kind of sense. But a less complex device should be
at no penalty or easier.
And today I still think any such (plus or minus) ‘tech level’ modifier’s brain dead.

>If there's a magic device costing 10$ that stops bullets and you can
>find it at Wal-Mart, well, guns don't seem SO powerful, do they?

Quite so, but is this a ‘Tech’ spell cast by the talisman?
Would it work vs Machine gun?
Could one have Spelled or Blessed rounds that could nullify it?

Personally, I’d cast it as a spell granting ‘n*’ dice worth of ablative protection.
And totally ignore the ‘distinctions’.
Magic is not supposed to be Science.
Gurps keeps it separate via the tech level, manna requirement, and then sets
it up as science type … er Alternative I guess.

>If you're going for a campaign where _everything_ is paid by CP (and
>is usually innate with the character), you can go more safely with the
>"anything goes".

Thing was, I thought CP price was normally not the same after Character creation.

>On the side of "flavor", you can do, basically, 3 things:
>
>1) Magic and Tech are equal (as in the example by Mike)
>
>2) Magic and Tech co-exist, people can use both, and have different
>uses. No need to balance them, they're just different (as in "Driving
>is different from Stealth") and people will chose what they like.
>
>3) Magic and Tech are mutual exclusive (Red Alert! Game balance issues
>incoming!!!)

Oh boy. I was actually angling for No#2 some people’d combine maj and tech, such as Scrying tomorrows
stockmarket results, perhaps using a laptop with an Eldrich operating system.

Isn’t No#3 the gurps default, sorta. Magic doesn’t like tech, and tech’s ambivalent about Magic?

I think I’m trying to say that gurps is prolly not the system to choose for the OPs’ plans, without actually
saying it.

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

mike wrote:
> Wise spending of character points has always been an issue.
> As I said earlier, bit gurps rusty.

The easiest way to handle this is to let make sure players know
if they make a character that turns out to be worthless they can
create another character. In some games, for example, the
technology assumptions may seem to make specializing in attack
magics attractive, but in play the mage turns out to be
worthless. So long as the players are aware that they can create
a new character at the same point total as the rest of the party
(including earned experience) this isn't a problem.

[snip]
> Thing was, I thought CP price was normally not the same after Character creation.

Point cost in 4e is the same whenever or whatever you get. A GM
may optionally deny the ability to learn certain abilities
depending on how he wants his game to work. For example, if
magic is an inherited ability you have so have some advantage
already on your sheet which indicates the potential to improve.

>>On the side of "flavor", you can do, basically, 3 things:
>>
>>1) Magic and Tech are equal (as in the example by Mike)
>>
>>2) Magic and Tech co-exist, people can use both, and have different
>>uses. No need to balance them, they're just different (as in "Driving
>>is different from Stealth") and people will chose what they like.
>>
>>3) Magic and Tech are mutual exclusive (Red Alert! Game balance issues
>>incoming!!!)
>
> Oh boy. I was actually angling for No#2 some people’d combine maj and tech, such as Scrying tomorrows
> stockmarket results, perhaps using a laptop with an Eldrich operating system.
>
> Isn’t No#3 the gurps default, sorta. Magic doesn’t like tech, and tech’s ambivalent about Magic?

No. GURPS doesn't really have a default for how magic and
technology relate. It depends on the game the GM wants.

Oh, and . . .

4) Magic and technology are basically the same thing. (The
_Mage:_The_Ascension_ option.)

--
Jefferson
http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

On 30 Dec 2007 12:03:10 -0500, Charlton Wilbur
<cwilbur DeleteThis @chromatico.net> wrote:

>>>>>> "KD" == Korin Duval <korinNOduvalSPAM DeleteThis @yahoo.it> writes:
>
> KD> I mean, if magic is clumpsy, slow, difficult, and guns are
> KD> TL8, then most people wanting to kill anyone else will go for
> KD> guns, and leave magic for other tasks... Unless there's a
> KD> readily available method to "counteract" guns.
>
>This is easily balanced in "secret magic" worlds -- guns are cheap and
>easy, but the police understand guns and forensics, and will come
>after you if you kill someone with them. If someone died of an
>apparent heart attack, on the other hand, who but a nutcase will
>suspect magic, since everyone *knows* there's no such thing?
>

Of course if you find a corpse with nothing wrong with it except a
healthy stopped heart, people will suspect poison or electrocution.
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

>>>>> "J" == Jefferson <Jeff_Wilson63 DeleteThis @bigfoot.com> writes:

J> The easiest way to handle this is to let make sure players know
J> if they make a character that turns out to be worthless they
J> can create another character. In some games, for example, the
J> technology assumptions may seem to make specializing in attack
J> magics attractive, but in play the mage turns out to be
J> worthless. So long as the players are aware that they can
J> create a new character at the same point total as the rest of
J> the party (including earned experience) this isn't a problem.

I usually allow players to recreate their characters as much as they
want, as long as the basic concept remains the same and it isn't a
huge contradiction about what has already happened in play. This is
not something that I think I've seen in the rules, but it seems
reasonable enough.

I also explicitly allow and recommend that players optimize in play -
if they can save points by raising an attribute and dropping all the
skills that depend on that attribute by 1 relative level (keeping them
all at at least the same absolute level) I encourage them to do it.

J> [snip]
>> Thing was, I thought CP price was normally not the same after
>> Character creation.

J> Point cost in 4e is the same whenever or whatever you get.

Right, but in 3e, some things became unavailable after character
creation (such as inborn advantages, such as Magery) and other things
change price (such as attributes). The former is still true in 4e,
but the latter is no longer true.

Charlton


--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur DeleteThis @chromatico.net
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined 

On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:34:14 +0000, mike
<mike RemoveThis @invariant.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>>I'd like to add my 0.02 Euro to your 2p. ^__^
>
>Humm... What’s the exchange rate?

"Real" Euro is a bit more than 1.3 US$. "Ideal" Euro... Your call. ^_^

[...]
>>I mean, if magic is clumpsy, slow, difficult, and guns are TL8, then
>>most people wanting to kill anyone else will go for guns, and leave
>>magic for other tasks... Unless there's a readily available method to
>>"counteract" guns.
>
>Actually, your example’s more like "it’s the universe that makes the difference"
>:-/

Yes, it is.
The setting, universe, or whatever you call it will make HUGE
differences.

The "accountant" ability is worthless in prehistoric settings or in
D&D-like fantasy, but could be really useful in other games.
The "artist" ability can vary greatly, from background stuff to a
prerequisite for divine secrets (Egypt?).

The same goes for (dis)advantages and powers. This is left for
exercise to the reader.

>Wise spending of character points has always been an issue.
>As I said earlier, bit gurps rusty.
>I’m unfamiliar on how the game’s changed, but last time I looked it was built in that tech was a limiting
>factor on magic.
>If I recall the right game rules, I was surprised by my GM once when I was informed that a spell was harder
>(to cast, and design) because the tech level was lower than my own.

First time I hear such thing.
Maybe the GM ruled that "rare components" were more difficult to find,
but I wouldn't accept a direct relation TL <-> Magic.

In fact, many fantasy settings assume that Tech replaced (or "killed")
magic. I.E.: the more Tech you got, the less Magic you'll get.

[...]
>>If there's a magic device costing 10$ that stops bullets and you can
>>find it at Wal-Mart, well, guns don't seem SO powerful, do they?
>
>Quite so, but is this a ‘Tech’ spell cast by the talisman?
>Would it work vs Machine gun?
>Could one have Spelled or Blessed rounds that could nullify it?

These are other in-setting assumpion that sure must be factored in.

[...]
>>If you're going for a campaign where _everything_ is paid by CP (and
>>is usually innate with the character), you can go more safely with the
>>"anything goes".
>
>Thing was, I thought CP price was normally not the same after Character creation.

In 4th Edition, it is the same, given that your GM makes the wanted
tract available after PC's creation.

[...]
>>3) Magic and Tech are mutual exclusive (Red Alert! Game balance issues
>>incoming!!!)
[...]
>Isn’t No#3 the gurps default, sorta. Magic doesn’t like tech, and tech’s ambivalent about Magic?

I don't think it is.
GURPS has no (or no longer) "Default" relations: it's built
SPECIFICALLY (IMHO) to allow easy mixes and matches among Magic, Tech,
Psi, Superpowers, Whateveryouwant.

>I think I’m trying to say that gurps is prolly not the system to choose for the OPs’ plans, without actually
>saying it.

Once he has the setting clear in his mind, GURPS works just fine.

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 >> Stay informed about: Sci-fi and fantasy combined