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SC2- real review

 
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HR

External


Since: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 134



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:37 pm
Post subject: SC2- real review
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>war-historical (more info?)

I played the Axis campaign at intermediate and conquered Russia late 42.
I'm the middle of playing Allies now at expert. Axis still took lenningrad
on me.
AI is a little better but still attacks when it shouldn't..like all AI does.

Since the game plays quick (rather keep playing turns for hours on hours) it
may not have a zillion replays for me..but I get bored after playing a few
times the same game anyway.

Negatives: These are short.
I still hate coastal bombardment.Smile So don't park stuff on the coast. I
suspect a human won't randomly bombard you The interface is fine..more than
quick enough.

Positives.
The squares didn't bother me when I first saw the screen shots as I figured
it was part of the design. It is. Better frontage to attack now since you
have units that represent armies and there's no stacking. I have them on and
you barely notice them they're so light.

The graphics are actually outstanding. Unlike the demo, you can turn both
types of unit bases off to no base. With nato counters you hardly even
notice it's 3D.

The biggest improvement is there is now a counter mix. No more building 20
airplanes. This gives much more a feel to a wargame. Also with delayed
production you have to think ahead.

The upgrades are nice too. You can either put reinf or upgrade in the field
but not both at once.Decisions when to do this make for much more strategy.
Do you reinf and not move. Wait and upgrade and not move the next turn....
Elite reinfs go by medals won so not every unit can have 12,13,14's etc. My
best tank unit was 15 with max Hvy tank at the end of the war...but it had
seen all the campaigns. The types of upgrades and limitations are real nice
too.

Enginners are great and can build forts. You even choose how many sides..the
more the longer it takes.

Ehypt is now much better with room to manuever.

The airborne is nice but not exactly deadly. Still can come in handy.

Diplomacy is much like 3R tho I haven't used it. (I always go brute force
anyway)

Naval is about the same.

While still not hardcore what he's done with the sequal is turn the beer and
pretzel SC1 into at least something more like a wargame.

You can even have a ship get damage in rough seas.

This is a great fun game and highly recommended.

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External


Since: Jul 16, 2005
Posts: 4



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:43 am
Post subject: Re: SC2- real review [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Sorry to be ignorant, but what is SC2?

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Dennisb55

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Since: Apr 07, 2006
Posts: 17



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:03 pm
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>As I got more units I was able to push him back, abeit slowly and lost two
>armored units. He has retreated fairly good although he still makes those
>useless single attacks a human player wouldn't.

Whaddoyoumean human player wouldn't?? I've done stupid things like
that. I started Fall White last night and did some stupid things just
because it's new and I'm getting use to it and I noticed that it cost
me more than when I did stupid things on SC1. However, after I got the
Bismark and Prinze Eugen, bought a bomber (France was done) it was very
easy to ambush the Royal Navy and soundly defeat them. Germany has
radar guns already! Russia declared war while I was fighting in Egypt
but they didn't do much to my east front thanks to an HQ and a couple
of armies there. Got Egypt to surrender and kicked the RN as
mentioned, but I think the AI is better than before. But the Italian
navy seems to really stink in this version as compared to SC1. May be
there is more randomness now. Time will tell.
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HR

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Since: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 134



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:45 pm
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2nd part review.

Summer 1943 Allies. This is the real test for the AI as we know it's not too
swift attacking. At expert level (which I imagine just means I got to hit
em' more) I have to admit the game is shaping up historical and the AI is
giving me a fight.

On the East they made it to Moscow but my engineer built forts only gave him
an attack on Moscow directly just once from the side.

As I got more units I was able to push him back, abeit slowly and lost two
armored units. He has retreated fairly good although he still makes those
useless single attacks a human player wouldn't.

I'm at Minsk and about to take Leningrad back. I still have to do Finland so
diverted some armor and air.

I was pissed off when I lost a couple armor..that's a good sign it's not a
cakewalk.

The West I'm just not quite ready (building and upgrading takes time). I
will surely blast ashore June 44.

Italy I am next to Rome and that was a brutal fight, particular in the
mountains where one loust German core (not army) resisted multiple attacks.
Can you imagine if the engineer had built a fort there Wink . As soon as I
took Sicily the AI immediately sent a German panzer and corps with 2 HQ.
They won't give it up easily.

My ship strength in the med is down by a 1/2 from Italian naval sorties
while the Altantic ships continue to take damage from rough seas and
occasional U boat attacks.I leave them at sea to scare U boats away while
ferry troops from the US. Not to mention protect the convoy routes.

Haven't read any rules yet so I may be missing a tactic or two but I doubt
it.

I thought sure from playing the old SC1 that it would be easy to stop the
Germans in their tracks early on. Not so. Probably because of the more
limited countermix and need to upgrade..and it plays a bit smarter.

I should win..but it was a game of it.
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HR

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Since: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 134



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:24 pm
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Part 3.

Took Berlin (with the Russians) Nov 1944.

Took France easy but forgot to build a HQ and couldn't reinforce.
Needless to say I quicly put Ike on order but the Russians beat me to
Berlin.

Took Rome mid 1944. Spain came in the war on axis side but did nothing but
pound Gibralter. Perhaps I should of sent money to them:)

Having played both sides and beat it..I think I ran out of replays quick.

Only thing left is PBEM.

Good game but once you beat it...............

so much for activation issues down the road.
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Dennisb55

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Since: Apr 07, 2006
Posts: 17



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:10 am
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Hopefully the AI will get some improvements.
I had a huge fight taking Turkey, USSR kept sending in units but I
finally won and got the plunder. I thought I had the Atlantic in
control but I found out why you don't sail near the UK. Stinking
bombers. Well, I may be on the way out now that the USA is in the UK
(I did manage to intercept and sink 1 transport). Now that I can move
my units from Turkey to the east front, I may get more successes there,
but the Siberian army is now comitted. I'll move the It navy to the
Atlantic and see if they can help the Bismark rule. Seems like money
is much harder to come by in this version and with the delayed
purchasing, more planning and less knee-jerk is required.
I do agree if I happen to win this war, playing so poorly, the replay
value will be much lower. But it's still fun for now.
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Greg Breslin

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Since: Feb 21, 2005
Posts: 36



(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:55 pm
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HR wrote:
> Part 3.
>
> Took Berlin (with the Russians) Nov 1944.
>
> Took France easy but forgot to build a HQ and couldn't reinforce.
> Needless to say I quicly put Ike on order but the Russians beat me to
> Berlin.
>
> Took Rome mid 1944. Spain came in the war on axis side but did nothing but
> pound Gibralter. Perhaps I should of sent money to them:)
>
> Having played both sides and beat it..I think I ran out of replays quick.
>
> Only thing left is PBEM.
>
> Good game but once you beat it...............
>
> so much for activation issues down the road.
>
>

Maybe you need a far more formidable computer game to try to conquer.
If you find your ideal computer game, I, for one, won't care if yours
has activation issues. Surely it's not easy to win a game if an event
happens early, but you just play on without regard to it. There's no
restarting this game. Greg
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HR

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Since: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 134



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:59 pm
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Well..since it's still new (fresh) I imagine I'll do it one more time to
economize a little better...then maybe a PBEM.

Tho this game really isn't suited for PBEM. The turns are too quick. Of
course you can do realtime over the net.........


But like you say..it's fun for now..

Hehe...no there quite isn't the money as before...you'd better plan ahead
Wink
(don't forget the American HQ lol)

Getting ready to do a large GGWAW PBEM..,which is perfectly suited. Long
enough turns to send in email..short enough for those that don't have the
time to do 3 hour turns:)

-HR


"Dennisb55" <dbocquin.TakeThisOut@embstats.com> wrote in message
news:1145463012.706063.160010@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Hopefully the AI will get some improvements.
> I had a huge fight taking Turkey, USSR kept sending in units but I
> finally won and got the plunder. I thought I had the Atlantic in
> control but I found out why you don't sail near the UK. Stinking
> bombers. Well, I may be on the way out now that the USA is in the UK
> (I did manage to intercept and sink 1 transport). Now that I can move
> my units from Turkey to the east front, I may get more successes there,
> but the Siberian army is now comitted. I'll move the It navy to the
> Atlantic and see if they can help the Bismark rule. Seems like money
> is much harder to come by in this version and with the delayed
> purchasing, more planning and less knee-jerk is required.
> I do agree if I happen to win this war, playing so poorly, the replay
> value will be much lower. But it's still fun for now.
>
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p.oxford

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Since: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 9



(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:53 pm
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Negative, BIG negative: German (for example) amphibious troops can
load, cross the channel and unload next to London untouched by the
Royal Navy or the RAF. There was a multi-page thread on the subject at
the BF forum and Hubert pledged to look into the problem, possibly
make some changes. This is really a fundamental structural issue with
the IGO_UGO format that, to me, appears unresolvable short of adding a
reaction phase; IOW, a new game. As it stands, this anomaly doesn't do
even abstract justice to the grand strategy of the war. Verdict:
emergency game surgery required.
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p.oxford

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Since: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 9



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:28 am
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You can load the transports well out of spotting range and plop them
down anywhere on the British coast, not just the London area. Part of
the problem is the extended range of the transports which, one
supposes, is easily amended. But once they're loaded, there's no
British gauntlet to run which was the inhibiting factor in the actual
circumstances. The routine, as it exists, works fine as long as the
invasion is unthreatened by enemy fleets or airpower, e.g., Torch. I
really don't see how this can be fixed in a satisfactory manner given
the game's scale and alternating turns format.
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p.oxford

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Since: Feb 16, 2005
Posts: 9



(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:09 am
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>I wonder if they could do that with Naval where you'd have a choice to put
then on INT. Probably hard to code...but they could intercept at the
nearest
point prior to landing.

That works- for SC3, lol. Or adding a naval reaction phase, basically
doubling turn length. An additional problem is the limitation of one
unit per square. The game needs abstract rules for Malta, for example,
to reflect supply interdiction because the Allies cannot install a
corps and an airfleet in the same location. The island/atoll strategy
of the Pacific War would be unrealilzable with the current engine. I've
shelved the game waiting for some (doubtful) resolutions.
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HR

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Since: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 134



(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:14 am
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When ships are loading for amp they can't move that turn and thus vunerable
to air and naval attack. Inless you can ring them with German naval in which
case it appears you have naval superiority. If you're talking one unit
getting next to London he won't due much without a HQ also being brought
ashore.

What time frame have you found this happening and at what level. Is this
after you conquer Russia?

After conquering Russia I was able to invade England at internediate level.
I'm playing the axis again at expert....we'll see if I can still take Russia
as I can't even take Suez yet and am already at war with Russia.
<p.oxford.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1145584435.720655.144270@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Negative, BIG negative: German (for example) amphibious troops can
> load, cross the channel and unload next to London untouched by the
> Royal Navy or the RAF. There was a multi-page thread on the subject at
> the BF forum and Hubert pledged to look into the problem, possibly
> make some changes. This is really a fundamental structural issue with
> the IGO_UGO format that, to me, appears unresolvable short of adding a
> reaction phase; IOW, a new game. As it stands, this anomaly doesn't do
> even abstract justice to the grand strategy of the war. Verdict:
> emergency game surgery required.
>
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HR

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Since: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 134



(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:43 am
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hmm..they have Air interception which is a reaction phase with in the turn
based.
I wonder if they could do that with Naval where you'd have a choice to put
then on INT. Probably hard to code...but they could intercept at the nearest
point prior to landing.

While the amphiboius range seems long..at this scale it wouldn't be landing
craft traveling so far but transports who then unload landing craft so we
couldn't change that range.

Interception is the only thing I can think of.

<p.oxford.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1145633284.906906.174760@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> You can load the transports well out of spotting range and plop them
> down anywhere on the British coast, not just the London area. Part of
> the problem is the extended range of the transports which, one
> supposes, is easily amended. But once they're loaded, there's no
> British gauntlet to run which was the inhibiting factor in the actual
> circumstances. The routine, as it exists, works fine as long as the
> invasion is unthreatened by enemy fleets or airpower, e.g., Torch. I
> really don't see how this can be fixed in a satisfactory manner given
> the game's scale and alternating turns format.
>
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HR

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Since: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 134



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:42 pm
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Yeah, even if they programmed Naval INT in they'd have to have counter
interception too. I know what you mean though because even sending an amph
from Italy to the far east by itself is a bit A-historical Wink

Maybe there's some way of coming up with some voluntarily player rule to
limit it under certain conditions. I've done that with other games. The AI
doing it is no problem cus he's not good enough;-)


<p.oxford.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1145639377.307794.278400@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >I wonder if they could do that with Naval where you'd have a choice to
> >put
> then on INT. Probably hard to code...but they could intercept at the
> nearest
> point prior to landing.
>
> That works- for SC3, lol. Or adding a naval reaction phase, basically
> doubling turn length. An additional problem is the limitation of one
> unit per square. The game needs abstract rules for Malta, for example,
> to reflect supply interdiction because the Allies cannot install a
> corps and an airfleet in the same location. The island/atoll strategy
> of the Pacific War would be unrealilzable with the current engine. I've
> shelved the game waiting for some (doubtful) resolutions.
>
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HR

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Since: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 134



(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:48 pm
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I went to read the BF forums on this..quite interesting.

The problem appears to some that it's an AI only problem while many boast
go ahead and try to pull sealion on me in a two player game. ( I don't think
I want too:). It seems they want some more AARs from AI and Human vs human
games before tinkering. Hubert has said he's going to upgrade the AI based
on this.

The quick fix seems to be to edit the amph movement. Wow..what an editor,
you can do almost anything including scripts and events. Some have suggested
if Germany does sealion to modify US entry.

I modified the amphibs down to only 4 action points. This makes the germans
embark from channel ports as they would..thus without naval superiority the
English will chew them up at embarkation points as they wait their turn to
move.
Also when you get ashore and don't grab a city you will be out of supply.
Seems a human will lay back and counterattack.

Since you can adjust unit capabilties by nationality I left the Italians
alone so they can still invade in the far east.

I think this is the fastest and easiest fix until they do what ever they
will do with the AI.
At least you can't invade from far off. Actually you can in mulitple moves
but units start losing readyiness fast while at sea.

I'm not waiting for SC3 Smile

In the end I wouldn't rank this game to historical anyway..although
certainly a lot more than SC1.

WIF should be out soon I hope:)

<p.oxford.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1145639377.307794.278400@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >I wonder if they could do that with Naval where you'd have a choice to
> >put
> then on INT. Probably hard to code...but they could intercept at the
> nearest
> point prior to landing.
>
> That works- for SC3, lol. Or adding a naval reaction phase, basically
> doubling turn length. An additional problem is the limitation of one
> unit per square. The game needs abstract rules for Malta, for example,
> to reflect supply interdiction because the Allies cannot install a
> corps and an airfleet in the same location. The island/atoll strategy
> of the Pacific War would be unrealilzable with the current engine. I've
> shelved the game waiting for some (doubtful) resolutions.
>
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