Rogues: Post 2.4.3 respec?

On 16 Jul, 18:26, decalod85 <decalo....DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:
> Is anyone planning on tossing away Cheat Death or Sinister Calling?
>
> My char is a lvl 67 Nelf rogue, sub-spec.  Gear is just standard
> greens (mostly bandit stuff) and a few blues.  So I have no
> resiliance.
>
> I am thinking about moving my Cheat Death points into Master of
> Subtlety or Enveloping Shadows.  I still want the 5% on hemmorage,
> which is what I primarily use.
>
> Can anyone offer insight on whether this is a good idea or not?

If I had zero resilience Cheat Death would be gone already I have
just over 360 resilience so the 90% damage reduction is still over 70%
for me.

I'd keep sinister calling.

steve.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: Rogues: Post 2.4.3 respec? 

On Jul 17, 12:02 am, "vexx" <v....TakeThisOut@vu.t-com.hr> wrote:
> "decalod85" <decalo....TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:46c2d7a0-2b4b-4abd-9ca4-081afbbbe905@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Is anyone planning on tossing away Cheat Death or Sinister Calling?
>
> > My char is a lvl 67 Nelf rogue, sub-spec.  Gear is just standard
> > greens (mostly bandit stuff) and a few blues.  So I have no
> > resiliance.
>
> > I am thinking about moving my Cheat Death points into Master of
> > Subtlety or Enveloping Shadows.  I still want the 5% on hemmorage,
> > which is what I primarily use.
>
> > Can anyone offer insight on whether this is a good idea or not?
>
> Sub is still great for levelig,especialy on pvp server.
> My rogue is lvl65,mostly doing instances with him while leveling.

I have used my sub-rogue for questing (very few instance runs) on a
normal server, and it has been pretty easy. I am planning on being
the clueless, poorly geared 70 that you pwn on the BG by sometime late
next week.

> And i am always top dpd in those instances.
> It's nice when my evis crit 3300 on cloth,and nice when put 30% stronger
> rapture + 20% from shadowstep on warrior and vanish:-)
> I already moved points from Cheat Death into Master of Subtlety.
> This is my build:http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhg0oLZZxMjoMGRsxot

Leveled my rogue last night (6, and respec'd. My previous build was
identical to yours, right down to the assassination choices. I have a
few more talent points than you, and I ended up sinking at least one
of them into Enveloping Shadows. I was kind of bouncing back and
forth between ES and some of the poison talents on the assassination
tab. Since I always use poison, it may be worth it. I may respec
again to try them...
 >> Stay informed about: Rogues: Post 2.4.3 respec? 

"decalod85" <decalod85.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:46c2d7a0-2b4b-4abd-9ca4-081afbbbe905@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Is anyone planning on tossing away Cheat Death or Sinister Calling?
>
> My char is a lvl 67 Nelf rogue, sub-spec. Gear is just standard
> greens (mostly bandit stuff) and a few blues. So I have no
> resiliance.
>
> I am thinking about moving my Cheat Death points into Master of
> Subtlety or Enveloping Shadows. I still want the 5% on hemmorage,
> which is what I primarily use.
>
> Can anyone offer insight on whether this is a good idea or not?

Sub is still great for levelig,especialy on pvp server.
My rogue is lvl65,mostly doing instances with him while leveling.
And i am always top dpd in those instances.
It's nice when my evis crit 3300 on cloth,and nice when put 30% stronger
rapture + 20% from shadowstep on warrior and vanish:-)
I already moved points from Cheat Death into Master of Subtlety.
This is my build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhg0oLZZxMjoMGRsxot
 >> Stay informed about: Rogues: Post 2.4.3 respec? 

On Jul 16, 1:26 pm, decalod85 <decalo... RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
> Is anyone planning on tossing away Cheat Death or Sinister Calling?
>
> My char is a lvl 67 Nelf rogue, sub-spec.  Gear is just standard
> greens (mostly bandit stuff) and a few blues.  So I have no
> resiliance.
>
> I am thinking about moving my Cheat Death points into Master of
> Subtlety or Enveloping Shadows.  I still want the 5% on hemmorage,
> which is what I primarily use.
>
> Can anyone offer insight on whether this is a good idea or not?

I leveled my belf rogue full Sub on the Feathermoon server and never
had a single complaint. It's not a PvP server, so I don't really have
those factors to take into account - and by the time Cheat Death was
an available talent to take, I had enough tricks to get out of dying
that I didn't even take it. I play a lot of PvE content and in PvE, if
you're getting hit a lot something has already gone wrong, so having a
talent to save you is often a waste of points.

Sadly, relevant sites are blocked on my current network, so I can't
link you my recommended spec, but I can tell you that you'll do just
fine surviving as a full Sub rogue leveling in Outland without Cheat
Death. Your total damage will be less than a combat build, but as long
as you have a good slow weapon in your main hand and use Hemo as your
primary damaging attack, you'll be covered.
 >> Stay informed about: Rogues: Post 2.4.3 respec? 

Hello, decalod85!
You wrote on Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:26:02 -0700 (PDT):

d> Is anyone planning on tossing away Cheat Death or Sinister Calling?


You forget the +15% agility, I have around +500 agility so +15% agility
gives me +75 AP and almost 2% crit, sinister calling still seems worth the
points.
About cheat death I plan to keep it for the moment since I have almost 400
resilience so it will hopefully still work ok.
 >> Stay informed about: Rogues: Post 2.4.3 respec? 

> I understand that almost everyone says that for leveling combat swords
> is the TOP WAY.

That's the most common sentiment, yeah. My philosophy is more along
the lines of "Do what you enjoy, and everyone wins.", though, so I
leveled Sub cause it looked the most fun.

> Swords outdamage daggers, I understand that but can't you use swords
> in a sub build?

This is something I learned the hard way, and wouldn't admit for a
while. But if you are using a Sub build where Hemorrhage is your main
attack, then yes, Swords will outdamage daggers. If you want to use
Backstab you need a dagger, but if you want to use Hemo, you should
use a slow weapon (Sword, Mace, or Fist, it doesn't actually matter)
because Hemo does your weapon's damage plus a modifier, meaning that
the more damage your weapon does per hit, the more damage Hemo does.

> Combat has very nice damage but everyone that is not combat says that
> with sub builds you get faster dots, and better defense. You just kill
> faster.

Sub has talents to give you a bit more burst damage and a lot more
survivability. They come at the cost of DPS increasing talents.

> the outspoken ones I have talked to on message boards (scare me)
> First they are constantly saying yep I cant believe that you are
> combat. I kill a LOT FASTER than combat. COMBAT is PURE RAID SPEC.
> It is the best for instance and raid but for leveling NOTHING beats
> sub.

For single, non-elite targets that have a small to medium amount of
HP, this is absolutely true. Premed->Garrote->Hemo->Rupture/Evis-
>Dead! The thing about Combat is that its damage is sustained better.
In the first few seconds the Sub rogue will be ahead, but as the fight
goes on (and even trash in raids take several minutes to kill,
usually) the Combat rogue will charge ahead.

> PS
> Kaldrenon  please understand I am in no way saying this about or to
> you. this is just my experience about sub builds and the people who I
> have questioned about it.

Yeah, I understand. I know "rogue elitists" too...they're annoying.
People who say "If you're not 20/41/0 Sword Spec you're doing in
WRONG." Pffft. No. Sure, math has been done, and sure, maybe that spec
is the -best- for sustained raid DPS. But that doesn't make it the
only way to play a rogue, even in raids. I raid 14/26/21 Hemo, and I
do well and I love it. I don't out-dps the sword rogues, but I don't
have to be sword spec, so I still win.

If you're not raiding, there's literally no reason to spec any given
way except entertainment value.
 >> Stay informed about: Rogues: Post 2.4.3 respec? 

On Jul 17, 11:22 am, sparks <spa....RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:
> This is what I still don't understand after all my post before about
> rogues.
> I am not trying to argue anything but Kaldrenon makes a good point,
> and the point I still can't get thru my head. I guess it would take
> something like multi spreadsheets and a lot of time to check.
>
> I understand that almost everyone says that for leveling combat swords
> is the TOP WAY.

Well, not everyone. Just blustery people with nothing better to do
than argue...

> Swords outdamage daggers, I understand that but can't you use swords
> in a sub build?

I do. My nelf is 17/0/42 (lvl 6 and I use:
Swords, daggers, maces, fist weaps, bows, guns, x-bows, thrown

I intentionally alternate so all my weapon skill levels are even. By
doing this, I ensure that I can use any good drops I happen to get.

My typical kill-pattern is stealth-premed-shadowstep-cheap shot-hemo-
evis. Rinse and repeat! Mix in sap and pickpocket for humanoids who
have something worth stealing!

I have been a sub-rogue since I started getting talent points, so
don't let anyone tell you this build is no good for leveling. It
works just fine for me.
 >> Stay informed about: Rogues: Post 2.4.3 respec? 

This is what I still don't understand after all my post before about
rogues.
I am not trying to argue anything but Kaldrenon makes a good point,
and the point I still can't get thru my head. I guess it would take
something like multi spreadsheets and a lot of time to check.

I understand that almost everyone says that for leveling combat swords
is the TOP WAY.
Swords outdamage daggers, I understand that but can't you use swords
in a sub build?
Combat has very nice damage but everyone that is not combat says that
with sub builds you get faster dots, and better defense. You just kill
faster.
the outspoken ones I have talked to on message boards (scare me)
First they are constantly saying yep I cant believe that you are
combat. I kill a LOT FASTER than combat. COMBAT is PURE RAID SPEC.
It is the best for instance and raid but for leveling NOTHING beats
sub.
Then when you ask about point placement and an idea of how they are
attacking. I get either ignored or avoid the question.
OH well I just whoop ass. I use a 41 point build.

One thing that makes a lot of this hard to find out about is the craft
calculation experts. yep I used a 70 with S4 or raid gear for my
calculations...etc

problem with that is it does not answer anything aout leveling.
Yep can't wait to see a level 61 rogue in full PVP or kara gear doing
ramparts or a Hellfire quest.



PS
Kaldrenon please understand I am in no way saying this about or to
you. this is just my experience about sub builds and the people who I
have questioned about it.



On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 07:39:08 -0700 (PDT), Kaldrenon
<kaldrenon DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jul 16, 1:26 pm, decalod85 <decalo... DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>> Is anyone planning on tossing away Cheat Death or Sinister Calling?
>>
>> My char is a lvl 67 Nelf rogue, sub-spec.  Gear is just standard
>> greens (mostly bandit stuff) and a few blues.  So I have no
>> resiliance.
>>
>> I am thinking about moving my Cheat Death points into Master of
>> Subtlety or Enveloping Shadows.  I still want the 5% on hemmorage,
>> which is what I primarily use.
>>
>> Can anyone offer insight on whether this is a good idea or not?
>
>I leveled my belf rogue full Sub on the Feathermoon server and never
>had a single complaint. It's not a PvP server, so I don't really have
>those factors to take into account - and by the time Cheat Death was
>an available talent to take, I had enough tricks to get out of dying
>that I didn't even take it. I play a lot of PvE content and in PvE, if
>you're getting hit a lot something has already gone wrong, so having a
>talent to save you is often a waste of points.
>
>Sadly, relevant sites are blocked on my current network, so I can't
>link you my recommended spec, but I can tell you that you'll do just
>fine surviving as a full Sub rogue leveling in Outland without Cheat
>Death. Your total damage will be less than a combat build, but as long
>as you have a good slow weapon in your main hand and use Hemo as your
>primary damaging attack, you'll be covered.
 >> Stay informed about: Rogues: Post 2.4.3 respec? 

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:22:19 GMT, sparks <sparks.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote:

>This is what I still don't understand after all my post before about
>rogues.
>I am not trying to argue anything but Kaldrenon makes a good point,
>and the point I still can't get thru my head. I guess it would take
>something like multi spreadsheets and a lot of time to check.
>
>I understand that almost everyone says that for leveling combat swords
>is the TOP WAY.
>Swords outdamage daggers, I understand that but can't you use swords
>in a sub build?

I think you misunderstood. People aren't just advocating combat
swords for leveling because swords are better than daggers.
It's because the combat builds (sword, mace or fist) do more damage
than a sub build. That's true if you assume identical weapons and gear
for both builds.

Otoh, the only time that really matters is if you're facing multiple
enemies or an elite. Combat will burn through multiple targets or an
elite with AR->BF.

... and there is a downside to leveling as combat. What happens if
you're combat swords and a nice mace drops? What if you can't find a
nice fast 1 hander for combat potency procs? Sub builds don't care
about the weapon type, they just go for the slowest, highest DPS main
hand weapon and the fastest offhand. What type of weapon it is doesn't
matter. That doesn't matter much at 70 but one tends to upgrade
weapons often while leveling.

The only hard-and-fast rule should be that you don't use Sinister
Strike or Hemo with a dagger build. Other than that, go with what you
enjoy.

>Combat has very nice damage but everyone that is not combat says that
>with sub builds you get faster dots, and better defense. You just kill
>faster.

Dots (Garrote and Rupture) are pretty useless for leveling, mobs don't
live long enough.

Rgds, Frank
 >> Stay informed about: Rogues: Post 2.4.3 respec? 

Toumar Kaldrenon <kaldrenon RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>> I understand that almost everyone says that for leveling combat swords
>> is the TOP WAY.
>
> That's the most common sentiment, yeah. My philosophy is more along
> the lines of "Do what you enjoy, and everyone wins.", though, so I
> leveled Sub cause it looked the most fun.
>

And that's all that really matters.

A friend of mine is just starting to play WoW for the first time, with a
rogue. He has decided he wants to do combat swords, but not because
someone said it was the best. He just likes the idea of a Grey Mouser type
chracter over a sneaky thief type rogue. It fits his RP concepts better.

You *can* choose a build for whatever reason makes the game fun for you.

--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / doc RemoveThis @america.net
http://www.autographedcat.com/ / http://autographedcat.livejournal.com/
Gafilk 2009: Jan 9-11, 2009 - Atlanta, GA - http://www.gafilk.org/
Aphelion - Original SF&F since 1997 - http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
 >> Stay informed about: Rogues: Post 2.4.3 respec?