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Gamer_2k4

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Since: Nov 03, 2005
Posts: 312



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 1:02 pm
Post subject: Roguelike Mood
Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>development (more info?)

I think an RPG would be more realistic if it included mood and emotion.
Obviously too much realism is undesireable, as the player focuses more
on nitpicked details and less on fun. Examples of bad realism are
cleaning weapons, wearing clothes (besides armor), sleeping, and a
realistic-sized world with corresponding travel times.

However, some realism is good. I think you should be required to eat
in a roguelike, and poison, bleeding, and other status conditions are
good. Some level of abstraction is required in a game, though; the
game would not be fun if every attack caused bleeding and every
sickness required a different cure.

Anyway, back to my point: I believe mood falls under the proper level
of realism. Gearhead is the only roguelike I know of that uses mood,
and it only affects the player's stats (maybe conversation as well).
In the best possible case, the player will feel whatever his character
does. For this to occur, the character's attributes must be important
and easily alterable.

In ADOM, one can have a pet, and Bards start out with one. What does
the game say when that pet gets killed? "You are horrified by the death
of your friend!" Ok, great. You've lost an extra 3 points of damage
each turn. Horrific. The player would feel much worse, and in turn
empathize with his character (remember, this is about role-playing) if
that death had a greater effect. If his character had improved stats
as a result of the pet's emotional attachment, or conversely had
decreased stats as a result of the loss, the player would feel more
frustrated at this event. If the pet represented a good deal of help
for the player character, or had some intrinsic value, the response
would be much more severe. Suppose this pet was surrounded by goblins
and killed. Since this implies serious gameplay problems for the
player in the future, he is likely to be frustrated or even angry, as
his character is. Maybe the player will find some relief in the
merciless slaughter of every goblin involved. The player character may
have difficulty interacting with peaceful goblins after the event too.
If the character cannot talk to goblins (in the interest of receiving
aid, bartering, or getting quests), the player will attribute that to
the goblin incident, and feel a similar frustration and/or regret at
the event.

The weather and/or environment should also have a substantial effect on
the player character. Imagine how you feel if you were trudging
through a blizzard and happened upon a warm inn with good food and good
company (there's no weather to speak of in roguelikes either, but
that's another matter). The inn needs to have a significant reward in
order to give the player a truly happy or relieved feeling. Maybe
wolves are easy enough to avoid in general, but the can attack
unexpectedly as a result of the reduced visibility caused by the
blizzard. The character would be safe from said wolves in the inn.
Maybe certain companions could be incapacitated by the cold, and are
revived once they are in the inn.

Quests should also change the character's mood. If rumors are
constantly circulating throughout the game of a "pure land" where only
the the most noble and honorable people can ever hope to see, much less
go to, then a late-game quest that allows access to this land will
provide a feeling of accomplishment for the player. Generally, the
more exlusive the area or reward, the greater the feelings will be from
attaining or losing it.

I realize I shifted from character emotion to player emotion. However,
I think player emotion is more important. Character emotion is just a
medium for the players to experience corresponding feelings. The
example in the last paragraph was derived from my experiences in "The
Secret of Mana" (SNES) and Runescape (PC). There really is a Pure Land
in "The Secret of Mana", and getting there means you are *very* close
to winning the game. It is always nice to have a tangible progress
indicator like that. In Runescape, there is a quest that gives you
kingship over a small, secluded island. The people there work for you
and give you resources. The island itself is accessable only to
members, and then only after you have completed several semi-difficult
quests. I remember ever since I started playing I wanted to go there,
and once I finally did, I experienced an incredible rush of
satisfaction and accomplishment. This is probably not normal; consult
your physician if you experience similar effects Smile.

Anyway, the point of this novel is that thought should be given to
different ways to immerse the character in the game. The problem with
several ideas is that it is complicated, and it could work too well.
You don't want the player destroying his computer or quitting because
of a seriously terrible game event. Conversely, you don't want to give
the person a "success high" too often or the effects will wear off.
This is the complicated part I mentioned. The player must be able to
recover from bad events, or the game will cease to be fun. The good
events and bad events must balance each other in possibility frequency
and amount. Finally, there needs to be very detailed and very deep
game content, or the moods and emotions the player and character
experience will become repetetive and lose their impact.

Anyway, those are just some ideas I thought I'd bring up. It's a
little too complicated to implement in my roguelike (though I think it
would be a great idea in a sequel), and also probably too complicated
to be used by a single independent developer. Nevertheless, it would
be great to see in any RPG in the future.

Gamer_2k4
--
Author, "Roguelike Mood"

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Antoine

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Since: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 577



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Roguelike Mood [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

> I realize I shifted from character emotion to player emotion. However,
> I think player emotion is more important. Character emotion is just a
> medium for the players to experience corresponding feelings.

.... I dispute that, I think modelling character emotion is a positive
hindrance to enhancing the *player's* emotional response.

Fear, for instance. If you want your player to experience fear when
seeing a particular monster, the best way is _not_ for the game to pop
up a message "You feel scared" and refuse to let the character step
towards that monster.

A.

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Gamer_2k4

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Since: Nov 03, 2005
Posts: 312



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Roguelike Mood [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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> Just curious: what the frontier between realism and
> too realism? Between sleeping and eating, for example?

It is too realistic when the "realistic" action because tedious to do
and takes more away from the game then it adds. Eating, for example is
good. You can have corpse effects, etc. That adds to the game.
Sleeping does not. You either wait until you can act again, or get a
critical hit on you because you are defenseless. The game would lose
too much action.

Gamer_2k4
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Gamer_2k4

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Since: Nov 03, 2005
Posts: 312



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Roguelike Mood [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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> I dispute that, I think modelling character emotion is a positive
> hindrance to enhancing the *player's* emotional response.

> Fear, for instance.

True. Fear in roguelikes makes sense, but it does not add to the
experience. Therefore, this implementation of fear is a poor emotional
medium.

Gamer_2k4
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crichmon

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Since: May 29, 2006
Posts: 29



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:50 pm
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"Gamer_2k4" <gamer2k4.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Just curious: what the frontier between realism and
>> too realism? Between sleeping and eating, for example?
>
> It is too realistic when the "realistic" action because
> tedious to do and takes more away from the game then it
> adds. Eating, for example is good. You can have corpse
> effects, etc. That adds to the game.

> Sleeping does not. You either wait until you can act
> again, or get a critical hit on you because you are
> defenseless. The game would lose too much action.

I've "waited" many times in Nethack for the purposes of healing. Sleeping
may seem unimportant, however resting has been an integral part in many RPGs
for healing as well as spell refreshing (for those systems such as AD&D
which relied on spell memorization for some magic systems).

Requiring the player to deal with setting up camp in a dungeon setting might
be more realistic, however, that sort of action is also part of early RPG
elements. AD&D lists items such as tents in the equipment registry, and has
items such as door spikes and hammers, so that the player could lock his
character(s) into a room and insure an eventless resting period.

An interesting idea for a counter measure for players that don't want/need
their characters to rest in the game, perhaps on the side of too much
realism, is add the negative effects of lack of REM sleep to the character,
for instance, confusion may set in, or the game spawns an aggravate monster
effect.


crichmon
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Antoine

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Since: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 577



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:14 pm
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AngeloB wrote:
> Just curious: what the frontier between realism and too realism? Between
> sleeping and eating, for example?

The important point to remember is that we are trying to build a
computer game here. Not to emulate a tabletop roleplaying game, and
especially not to build a 'dungeon simulator'.

Add an element to the game only because it improves the playing
experience, not because that element is present in other games or
because it's something we do in real life.

The desire to build a dungeon simulator, implementing all elements of
existence in some imaginary setting - both for the character and the
monsters - makes roguelikes get out of hand and is one of the worst
threats to the success of your project.

A.
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Antoine

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Since: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 577



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:42 pm
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crichmon wrote:
> "Antoine" <mail.TakeThisOut@guildgame.com> wrote in message
> news:1149048851.284765.124860@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > AngeloB wrote:
> >> Just curious: what the frontier between realism and too realism? Between
> >> sleeping and eating, for example?
> >
> > The important point to remember is that we are trying to build a
> > computer game here. Not to emulate a tabletop roleplaying game, and
> > especially not to build a 'dungeon simulator'.
> >
> > Add an element to the game only because it improves the playing
> > experience, not because that element is present in other games or
> > because it's something we do in real life.
> >
> > The desire to build a dungeon simulator, implementing all elements of
> > existence in some imaginary setting - both for the character and the
> > monsters - makes roguelikes get out of hand and is one of the worst
> > threats to the success of your project.
>
> To each their own set of details.

Right. I'm just commenting that 'realism' isn't a good guide when
deciding which details to pick.

A.
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crichmon

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Since: May 29, 2006
Posts: 29



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 11:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Roguelike Mood [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Antoine" <mail DeleteThis @guildgame.com> wrote in message
news:1149048851.284765.124860@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> AngeloB wrote:
>> Just curious: what the frontier between realism and too realism? Between
>> sleeping and eating, for example?
>
> The important point to remember is that we are trying to build a
> computer game here. Not to emulate a tabletop roleplaying game, and
> especially not to build a 'dungeon simulator'.
>
> Add an element to the game only because it improves the playing
> experience, not because that element is present in other games or
> because it's something we do in real life.
>
> The desire to build a dungeon simulator, implementing all elements of
> existence in some imaginary setting - both for the character and the
> monsters - makes roguelikes get out of hand and is one of the worst
> threats to the success of your project.

To each their own set of details.
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Antoine

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Since: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 577



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:20 am
Post subject: Re: Roguelike Mood [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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crichmon wrote:
> "Antoine" <mail RemoveThis @guildgame.com> wrote in message
> news:1149050553.075725.150390@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > crichmon wrote:
> >> "Antoine" <mail RemoveThis @guildgame.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1149048851.284765.124860@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> > AngeloB wrote:
> >> >> Just curious: what the frontier between realism and too realism?
> >> >> Between
> >> >> sleeping and eating, for example?
> >> >
> >> > The important point to remember is that we are trying to build a
> >> > computer game here. Not to emulate a tabletop roleplaying game, and
> >> > especially not to build a 'dungeon simulator'.
> >> >
> >> > Add an element to the game only because it improves the playing
> >> > experience, not because that element is present in other games or
> >> > because it's something we do in real life.
> >> >
> >> > The desire to build a dungeon simulator, implementing all elements of
> >> > existence in some imaginary setting - both for the character and the
> >> > monsters - makes roguelikes get out of hand and is one of the worst
> >> > threats to the success of your project.
> >>
> >> To each their own set of details.
> >
> > Right. I'm just commenting that 'realism' isn't a good guide when
> > deciding which details to pick.
>
> Can you comment on what would be good guides for deciding which details to
> pick?

Not with any particular authority, but my opinion would be something
like this:

There is a spectrum across games from very focused (game based around a
particular concept or gimmick, small set of rules, simple gameworld) to
comprehensive (broad based game, many different concepts and
'subgames', complex interactions between game elements).

In a very focused game (Letter Hunt is a good example), I would avoid
details not directly pertaining to the game concept (for a non
roguelike example, Pacman eats, but does not sleep, wear clothes, or
carry items) (not as dumb an example as it sounds - if more roguelikes
were as well designed as Pacman the world would be a better place).

Any detail that leads to micromanagement should be avoided unless you
want to make that micromanagement a key aspect of the game (an example
would be inventory management in Guild, where shifting equipment
between characters is time consuming but that's ok cos it is supposed
to be an important part of the game).

In a comprehensive game like Nethack, the answer is 'as many details as
possible', but then I doubt many (any?) RGRD posters will be involved
in developing a new game of that type.

Must go eat
A.
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crichmon

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Since: May 29, 2006
Posts: 29



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:59 am
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"Antoine" <mail RemoveThis @guildgame.com> wrote in message
news:1149050553.075725.150390@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> crichmon wrote:
>> "Antoine" <mail RemoveThis @guildgame.com> wrote in message
>> news:1149048851.284765.124860@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > AngeloB wrote:
>> >> Just curious: what the frontier between realism and too realism?
>> >> Between
>> >> sleeping and eating, for example?
>> >
>> > The important point to remember is that we are trying to build a
>> > computer game here. Not to emulate a tabletop roleplaying game, and
>> > especially not to build a 'dungeon simulator'.
>> >
>> > Add an element to the game only because it improves the playing
>> > experience, not because that element is present in other games or
>> > because it's something we do in real life.
>> >
>> > The desire to build a dungeon simulator, implementing all elements of
>> > existence in some imaginary setting - both for the character and the
>> > monsters - makes roguelikes get out of hand and is one of the worst
>> > threats to the success of your project.
>>
>> To each their own set of details.
>
> Right. I'm just commenting that 'realism' isn't a good guide when
> deciding which details to pick.

Can you comment on what would be good guides for deciding which details to
pick?

crichmon
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lochok

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Since: Mar 28, 2006
Posts: 99



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:17 pm
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On Tue, 30 May 2006 15:34:06 -0700, Gamer_2k4 wrote:

>> Just curious: what the frontier between realism and
>> too realism? Between sleeping and eating, for example?
>
> It is too realistic when the "realistic" action because tedious to do
> and takes more away from the game then it adds. Eating, for example is
> good. You can have corpse effects, etc. That adds to the game.
> Sleeping does not. You either wait until you can act again, or get a
> critical hit on you because you are defenseless. The game would lose
> too much action.
>
> Gamer_2k4

I'd disagree about the sleeping thing. Just because it hasn't been done
much, doesn't mean it can't be done well.

For example, it would make sense for lots of melee to make you fatigued.
And for caffeine to give you a jump.

Fatigue could be used for morale, accuracy, success rates, defence,
modify concentration (spell casting and learning esp.) and finally
suddenly make you fall asleep if you havn't slept for days on end

It could work


Lochok
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Adam White

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Since: Apr 05, 2006
Posts: 13



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:17 pm
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On Wed, 31 May 2006 18:17:55 +1000, lochok wrote:

[on realism in roguelikes]

>
> I'd disagree about the sleeping thing. Just because it hasn't been done
> much, doesn't mean it can't be done well.

Absolutely. If it's fun, it should be in the game. If not, just abstract
it out.

>
> For example, it would make sense for lots of melee to make you fatigued.
> And for caffeine to give you a jump.
>
> Fatigue could be used for morale, accuracy, success rates, defence,
> modify concentration (spell casting and learning esp.) and finally
> suddenly make you fall asleep if you havn't slept for days on end

I'm not sure if this is an argument for or against, but /Omega/ features
various states of alertness with the above effects. You don't need to
sleep _as such_, but 'R'esting is required regularly to stay at peak
efficiency.

Of course Omega is quite unique (IMO) in the roguelikes because it plays
more like a P&P RPG - for example, Paladins should honour their moral
code to keep increasing Lawfulness. (eg, attempting to 't'alk and
threaten opponents before launching into combat).

But then again, Omega tends towards micro management with its tedious
(once again, IMO) unique inventory-handling mechanism.

Adam
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fmunoz.geo

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Since: Jun 01, 2006
Posts: 1



(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:31 am
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Gearhead (both I and II) have a mood stat... you get minus to some
stats if depressed or bonus if in very good mood.
Resting, getting massages, eating good & expensive food, drinking
improve your morale... but crawilng in the sewers, getting hurt or too
exausested (mental or physical) or eating junk food (military rations)
makes you feel worse.
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