Rogue at level 57 --outland next

On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:05:28 GMT, sparks <sparks DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:

>now the mobs are 52-54 and like I said I CS, SS, slice, SS,SS,SS, EVIS
>mobs is about 1/2 health but a few times I guess with luck of crits
>1/3.
>I have taken about 200 damage.
>last 1/2 is head to head warrior style. mob is dead I am down 500-800
>of my 3100 hp.
>
>This is the reason why I asked all of this.
>
>With this type of thing happening every fight I CAN NOT see this chr
>in outlands. He will get his ass handed to him very quickly.
>Sure I could blade flurry but that is only every 2 minutes. head to
>head this guy looks to me to be toast.
>
>correct me if I am wrong but ruthless and relentless was what I wanted
>before going combat. Maybe I just need to respec and see full combat
>first but those 2 skills looked like a deal breaker. Maybe I am just
>an idiot (you have my permission to say so

I'd max out combat first before worrying about the Assassination
talents. Combat potency is that good.

Keep an eye out in the AH for outland gear of your level, I think the
items start at lvl 57. Just picking up one of the outland swords for
you rmain hand would make a world of difference since your main weapon
is 5 levels out of date anyway.

Rgds, Frank
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

> But sneaking around!

Yes, I agree, sub is great for sneaking around

ave
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

> I changed from combat/ass to sub/ass after a short time in outlands and
> found sub/ass much more fun than combat.

This is fuzzy territory really (to me, at least). And kind of leading off
from what I see as the question asked, the original question was more "I've
been told speccing subtlety, I would take less damage and kill faster, is
that true?". The answer is no, you're going to kill (pve) faster and take
less damage with a combat/swords build. If the question were "Speccing sub
is more fun?" then I would be saying yes.

Is a sub/ass build more 'fun' than combat/swords? Yes, imho.
Is a sub/ass build 'fine'? Yes, imho. Assuming you're not raiding.
Could you level with a sub/ass build? sure you could, my level 59 horde
rogue is subtlety\assassination.
Is it the best pve build you can use? no.

My 70 rogue has been sub/ass for months now, she doesn't raid anymore
however (otherwise she would respec combat/swords for raiding). She can
bring level 70 mobs from 100% to dead in the duration of a cheap-shot. But I
wouldn't claim it was the best build around for pve, I know it isn't.

ave
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

On Jul 8, 8:49 am, "ave" <a....TakeThisOut@nomailplease.com> wrote:
> For levelling and pve, I would spec something like:
>
> http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fbe0ovZMeV00VzxMGkt
>
> With the 41 points in combat, then start filling out the assassination
> points. Note, this is only for pve levelling, not raiding and not pvp (sure,
> you can use it for raiding or pvp too, it's just not the build I would
> exactly go with for those purposes). You might prefer to move some points
> around too, upto you.
>
> ave

Could I ask why you chose Vile Poisons over Improved Poisons in Tier 4
of the Assassination tree? My 50-something rogue does only PvE, so
I'm not worried about PvP consequences.

After 41 points in combat and maxing Lethality, you have 4 points left
to spend.

4/5 Vile Poisons buys you +16% poison damage and +32% on dispel
resistance.

4/5 Improved Poisons would buy +8% chance to apply poison.

As I understand it, Improved Poisons would raise my chance of an
Instant Poison proc from 20% to 28%, or 40% more poison damage,
averaged over time. By contrast, Vile Poisons only improves my poison
DPS by 16%. I can see two advantages of Vile Poisons - dispel
resistance and burst damage.

In PvE, I'm not worried about poison getting dispelled. Since PvE
fights last so briefly, I'm not convinced that Wound Poison would
actually do more DPS over the duration of a mob's (short) life. Heck,
I often have trouble building to 5 combo points before I kill with
Eviscerate. Other poisons just don't seem as useful, unless I feel
like I need Crippling Poison on the off-hand to catch runners. Hence,
it seems like dispelling is irrelevant to a PvE rogue. Do Outland
mobs dispel debuffs a lot?

I understand the desirability of burst damage. Even in PvE, an extra
crit can kill the mob before it gets to swat you again, so you end up
with less downtime. Still, it takes enough swings to kill something
that I expect that I get a good sample of the poison proc rate. I've
never found myself noticing "wow, I killed that mob in only 5 swings,
not 4, because of that lucky poison proc." By the time we get to
10-15 swings, "luck" has probably gotten averaged out. So, I can't
see +16% bigger poison procs outweighing +40% more Instant Poison
procs.

What am I missing? Do I misunderstand something about poison
mechanics?

- Prelgor
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

Hello, ave!
You wrote on Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:43:29 +0100:

>> I changed from combat/ass to sub/ass after a short time in outlands
>> and found sub/ass much more fun than combat.

a> This is fuzzy territory really (to me, at least). And kind of leading
a> off from what I see as the question asked, the original question was
a> more "I've been told speccing subtlety, I would take less damage and
a> kill faster, is that true?". The answer is no, you're going to kill
a> (pve) faster and take less damage with a combat/swords build. If the
a> question were "Speccing sub is more fun?" then I would be saying
a> yes.

a> Is a sub/ass build more 'fun' than combat/swords? Yes, imho.
a> Is a sub/ass build 'fine'? Yes, imho. Assuming you're not raiding.
a> Could you level with a sub/ass build? sure you could, my level 59
a> horde rogue is subtlety\assassination.
a> Is it the best pve build you can use? no.

a> My 70 rogue has been sub/ass for months now, she doesn't raid anymore
a> however (otherwise she would respec combat/swords for raiding). She
a> can bring level 70 mobs from 100% to dead in the duration of a
a> cheap-shot. But I wouldn't claim it was the best build around for
a> pve, I know it isn't.

a> ave

The problem I had while levelling was that the gear generally sucks ^^
With combat/assasination I would start CS and that left energy for 1 ss,
then CS would break and I would have to do 4 pts KS or wait for energy, that
took a bit of HP, then KS and max 1-2 ss and after it's over just SS till
dead as I dont have enough combo points to do a 4-5 evisc and a 3 pts evisc
is almost like a SS .

With sub/ass build I would CS and still have 60 energy (CS cost 20 less
energy) and 3 combo on the target, then 2 hemo and I already have 5 combo
points, many times I even have to wait a sec for CS to be over to KS to not
stun a stunned target. Then 2 hemo and as KS is over ghostly strike and hope
to dodge some before eviscerate.
While levelling I also really liked cheat death as it allowed me to get very
low on HP without danger and if it was very close I just waited for cheat
death to activate before vanishing or kidney and finish the mob
The talent to do more dmg with special attacks on mobs under 35% from sub is
also great as you wait the mob to go under 35% and then unleash your
finishers for some nice dmg.
And let's not forget imp stealth and increased moving while sthealthed,
playing on a pvp server you are stealthed a lot
Take into consideration also that sub builds compensate to the higher dmg
from combat tree with 15% more agility and 10% more AP.

I agree that in a pve situation where a mob stands still you can do best
result with combat/ass but to level I found I can keep the mob stunned much
better as sub/ass and that improved my downtime a lot
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

Believe it or not I have been watching the AH for swords since he was
in his 30's trying to buy swords my level and higher. ANYTHING, to try
and stay up but I have not even seen a sword better than what I have.
Would love to find a better weapon. BUT the AH is dry on one hand
swords...except some epic stuff starting at 500G
prices have gone thru the roof on my server. I guess its summer and
everyone has a lot more time than me and trying to make new chrs and
stuff.

I leveled all of the 40's with a level 34 and 32 swords. I have not
found in drops or AH anything that was even remotely worth getting.
Matter of fact the only thing I have seen is daggers and they were
always higher level but lower top end damage...fast but weak avg.

Bliz needs to put more swords in the game, with some mods as well.
I guess I am competing with warriors and hunters too, not really sure.




On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 09:41:30 -0400, Frank E <fakeaddress DeleteThis @hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:05:28 GMT, sparks <sparks DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>now the mobs are 52-54 and like I said I CS, SS, slice, SS,SS,SS, EVIS
>>mobs is about 1/2 health but a few times I guess with luck of crits
>>1/3.
>>I have taken about 200 damage.
>>last 1/2 is head to head warrior style. mob is dead I am down 500-800
>>of my 3100 hp.
>>
>>This is the reason why I asked all of this.
>>
>>With this type of thing happening every fight I CAN NOT see this chr
>>in outlands. He will get his ass handed to him very quickly.
>>Sure I could blade flurry but that is only every 2 minutes. head to
>>head this guy looks to me to be toast.
>>
>>correct me if I am wrong but ruthless and relentless was what I wanted
>>before going combat. Maybe I just need to respec and see full combat
>>first but those 2 skills looked like a deal breaker. Maybe I am just
>>an idiot (you have my permission to say so
>
>I'd max out combat first before worrying about the Assassination
>talents. Combat potency is that good.
>
>Keep an eye out in the AH for outland gear of your level, I think the
>items start at lvl 57. Just picking up one of the outland swords for
>you rmain hand would make a world of difference since your main weapon
>is 5 levels out of date anyway.
>
>Rgds, Frank
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 07:52:18 +0100, "Mark (newsgroups)"
<marknewsgroups.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Catriona R wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 20:18:05 +0100, "Mark (newsgroups)"
>> <marknewsgroups.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Catriona R wrote:
>>>> Indeed, I've always been combat swords and every time I look at sub it's
>>>> missing too much useful stuff. Although is people go full combat without
>>>> the additional assassination talents to help combo point generation,
>>>> then perhaps I could see why they think it's bad... but really it's a
>>>> nobrainer to get ruthlessness and relentless strikes in addition to the
>>>> combat goodies. Perfect pve build, at least for me; can't see myself
>>>> ever changing away from it.
>>> Uh oh, we're getting into the disc vs holy priest territory again.
>>>
>>> I changed from combat/ass to sub/ass after a short time in outlands and
>>> found sub/ass much more fun than combat. Whether it's more efficient for
>>> questing is debatable, but it certainly feels fine, and more
>>> importantly, feels more roguelike to me. But then it's probably too fotm
>>> for you
>>
>> Sigh... is it not allowed to offer opinions on specs any more. never
>> said anything about ffotm, just said what works for ME. Waste of breath
>
>I said the above tongue in cheek. Not sure why you're upset or where you
>got the idea that I'm rubbishing your opinion. On the contrary, I always
>read your posts with interest.

Well it sounded like you were just making fun out of me.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair (70 Human Rogue)
Naomh (70 Draenei Priest)
Sagart (70 Undead Priest)
Rosad (70 Human Warlock)
Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock)
Sealgair (70 Dwarf Hunter)
Buinne (63 Troll Shaman)
Beag (60 Dwarf Paladin)
Tairbh (60 Tauren Druid)
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:49:59 -0400, ToolPackinMama
<philnblanc.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>My level 57 BE rogue was spec'd Sub, then after people here adamantly
>insisted that combat was the best way to level a PvE rogue, I respec'd
>to combat and began swinging swords.
>
>HATED IT.

Most rogues do. <g> Combat (swords) is as boring as it gets.

>After about ten levels worth of that I respc'd back to Sub, purchased a
>gorgeous matched set of daggers, and went back to being the backstabbing
>sneaky little death-cheatin' devil I preferred to be.

You should at least try Mutilate to see if you like it, if you really
want to level using daggers.

Backstab = 1 combo point per 60 energy
Mutilate = 2-4 combo points per 60 energy and it does more damage
than backstab

Rgds, Frank
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:44:52 -0700 (PDT), Prelgor <prelgor.TakeThisOut@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Jul 8, 8:49 am, "ave" <a....TakeThisOut@nomailplease.com> wrote:
>> For levelling and pve, I would spec something like:
>>
>> http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fbe0ovZMeV00VzxMGkt
>>
>> With the 41 points in combat, then start filling out the assassination
>> points. Note, this is only for pve levelling, not raiding and not pvp (sure,
>> you can use it for raiding or pvp too, it's just not the build I would
>> exactly go with for those purposes). You might prefer to move some points
>> around too, upto you.
>>
>> ave
>
>Could I ask why you chose Vile Poisons over Improved Poisons in Tier 4
>of the Assassination tree? My 50-something rogue does only PvE, so
>I'm not worried about PvP consequences.
>
>After 41 points in combat and maxing Lethality, you have 4 points left
>to spend.

I'd take murder before you max out Lethality. Probably max out both of
those before I messed with the poison talents for a leveling build.

>4/5 Vile Poisons buys you +16% poison damage and +32% on dispel
>resistance.
>
>4/5 Improved Poisons would buy +8% chance to apply poison.

>As I understand it, Improved Poisons would raise my chance of an
>Instant Poison proc from 20% to 28%, or 40% more poison damage,
>averaged over time. By contrast, Vile Poisons only improves my poison
>DPS by 16%. I can see two advantages of Vile Poisons - dispel
>resistance and burst damage.

I think the base proc chance is 30%, which brings the two numbers
closer together. But basically, you're right. While leveling you
probably want to use dual instant poisons which makes Vile Poisons
pretty useless outside of PvP and dungeon crawls.

Rgds, Frank
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

Catriona R wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 07:52:18 +0100, "Mark (newsgroups)"
> <marknewsgroups DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Catriona R wrote:
>>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 20:18:05 +0100, "Mark (newsgroups)"
>>> <marknewsgroups DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catriona R wrote:
>>>>> Indeed, I've always been combat swords and every time I look at sub it's
>>>>> missing too much useful stuff. Although is people go full combat without
>>>>> the additional assassination talents to help combo point generation,
>>>>> then perhaps I could see why they think it's bad... but really it's a
>>>>> nobrainer to get ruthlessness and relentless strikes in addition to the
>>>>> combat goodies. Perfect pve build, at least for me; can't see myself
>>>>> ever changing away from it.
>>>> Uh oh, we're getting into the disc vs holy priest territory again.
>>>>
>>>> I changed from combat/ass to sub/ass after a short time in outlands and
>>>> found sub/ass much more fun than combat. Whether it's more efficient for
>>>> questing is debatable, but it certainly feels fine, and more
>>>> importantly, feels more roguelike to me. But then it's probably too fotm
>>>> for you
>>> Sigh... is it not allowed to offer opinions on specs any more. never
>>> said anything about ffotm, just said what works for ME. Waste of breath
>> I said the above tongue in cheek. Not sure why you're upset or where you
>> got the idea that I'm rubbishing your opinion. On the contrary, I always
>> read your posts with interest.
>
> Well it sounded like you were just making fun out of me.

Well I was teasing a little, but meant in a friendly way. You even
admitted on another thread a while ago you tend to get a little
stubborn. I meant no offence, apologies.
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

Frank E wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 20:18:05 +0100, "Mark (newsgroups)"
> <marknewsgroups.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Catriona R wrote:
>>> Indeed, I've always been combat swords and every time I look at sub it's
>>> missing too much useful stuff. Although is people go full combat without
>>> the additional assassination talents to help combo point generation,
>>> then perhaps I could see why they think it's bad... but really it's a
>>> nobrainer to get ruthlessness and relentless strikes in addition to the
>>> combat goodies. Perfect pve build, at least for me; can't see myself
>>> ever changing away from it.
>> Uh oh, we're getting into the disc vs holy priest territory again.
>>
>> I changed from combat/ass to sub/ass after a short time in outlands and
>> found sub/ass much more fun than combat. Whether it's more efficient for
>> questing is debatable, but it certainly feels fine, and more
>> importantly, feels more roguelike to me. But then it's probably too fotm
>> for you
>
> A ShS rogue calling someone else fotm? :p

I think you misunderstood.
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

Prelgor has a good point.

First I have only ever used instant poisons.
Never thought about using anything else.

PVE questing and grinding is this Correct ?


Second do they have other poisons? ROFL

Third when you get to the choise of poison like he said which one for
PVE ?






On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:44:52 -0700 (PDT), Prelgor <prelgor DeleteThis @aol.com>
wrote:

>On Jul 8, 8:49 am, "ave" <a... DeleteThis @nomailplease.com> wrote:
>> For levelling and pve, I would spec something like:
>>
>> http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fbe0ovZMeV00VzxMGkt
>>
>> With the 41 points in combat, then start filling out the assassination
>> points. Note, this is only for pve levelling, not raiding and not pvp (sure,
>> you can use it for raiding or pvp too, it's just not the build I would
>> exactly go with for those purposes). You might prefer to move some points
>> around too, upto you.
>>
>> ave
>
>Could I ask why you chose Vile Poisons over Improved Poisons in Tier 4
>of the Assassination tree? My 50-something rogue does only PvE, so
>I'm not worried about PvP consequences.
>
>After 41 points in combat and maxing Lethality, you have 4 points left
>to spend.
>
>4/5 Vile Poisons buys you +16% poison damage and +32% on dispel
>resistance.
>
>4/5 Improved Poisons would buy +8% chance to apply poison.
>
>As I understand it, Improved Poisons would raise my chance of an
>Instant Poison proc from 20% to 28%, or 40% more poison damage,
>averaged over time. By contrast, Vile Poisons only improves my poison
>DPS by 16%. I can see two advantages of Vile Poisons - dispel
>resistance and burst damage.
>
>In PvE, I'm not worried about poison getting dispelled. Since PvE
>fights last so briefly, I'm not convinced that Wound Poison would
>actually do more DPS over the duration of a mob's (short) life. Heck,
>I often have trouble building to 5 combo points before I kill with
>Eviscerate. Other poisons just don't seem as useful, unless I feel
>like I need Crippling Poison on the off-hand to catch runners. Hence,
>it seems like dispelling is irrelevant to a PvE rogue. Do Outland
>mobs dispel debuffs a lot?
>
>I understand the desirability of burst damage. Even in PvE, an extra
>crit can kill the mob before it gets to swat you again, so you end up
>with less downtime. Still, it takes enough swings to kill something
>that I expect that I get a good sample of the poison proc rate. I've
>never found myself noticing "wow, I killed that mob in only 5 swings,
>not 4, because of that lucky poison proc." By the time we get to
>10-15 swings, "luck" has probably gotten averaged out. So, I can't
>see +16% bigger poison procs outweighing +40% more Instant Poison
>procs.
>
>What am I missing? Do I misunderstand something about poison
>mechanics?
>
>- Prelgor
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next 

On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 19:37:36 +0100, "Mark (newsgroups)"
<marknewsgroups.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Catriona R wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 07:52:18 +0100, "Mark (newsgroups)"
>> <marknewsgroups.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Catriona R wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 20:18:05 +0100, "Mark (newsgroups)"
>>>> <marknewsgroups.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Catriona R wrote:
>>>>>> Indeed, I've always been combat swords and every time I look at sub it's
>>>>>> missing too much useful stuff. Although is people go full combat without
>>>>>> the additional assassination talents to help combo point generation,
>>>>>> then perhaps I could see why they think it's bad... but really it's a
>>>>>> nobrainer to get ruthlessness and relentless strikes in addition to the
>>>>>> combat goodies. Perfect pve build, at least for me; can't see myself
>>>>>> ever changing away from it.
>>>>> Uh oh, we're getting into the disc vs holy priest territory again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I changed from combat/ass to sub/ass after a short time in outlands and
>>>>> found sub/ass much more fun than combat. Whether it's more efficient for
>>>>> questing is debatable, but it certainly feels fine, and more
>>>>> importantly, feels more roguelike to me. But then it's probably too fotm
>>>>> for you
>>>> Sigh... is it not allowed to offer opinions on specs any more. never
>>>> said anything about ffotm, just said what works for ME. Waste of breath
>>> I said the above tongue in cheek. Not sure why you're upset or where you
>>> got the idea that I'm rubbishing your opinion. On the contrary, I always
>>> read your posts with interest.
>>
>> Well it sounded like you were just making fun out of me.
>
>Well I was teasing a little, but meant in a friendly way. You even
>admitted on another thread a while ago you tend to get a little
>stubborn. I meant no offence, apologies.

Ok, I overreacted a bit there so sorry on my part too
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair (70 Human Rogue)
Naomh (70 Draenei Priest)
Sagart (70 Undead Priest)
Rosad (70 Human Warlock)
Eilnich (70 Blood Elf Warlock)
Sealgair (70 Dwarf Hunter)
Buinne (63 Troll Shaman)
Beag (60 Dwarf Paladin)
Tairbh (60 Tauren Druid)
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue at level 57 --outland next