Rogue dings 70 and does BGs

Mark (newsgroups) wrote:

> Heheh, well another thing I noticed. It's possible for Alliance to get
> into the outer part of FW without going through the gate, one a mount
> (epic, perhaps normal too) you can ride and jump over the fence about
> 40 yards left of the gate. That seems kind of odd, unless there is a
> way into the Alliance base that doesn't involve crossing the bridge
> that I don't know about.
>
> Also, frustrating that Alliance can assault towers without having to
> worry about archers.

Rogues can probably get into Dun Baldar by Shadowstepping the NPCs that
stand close to the bunkers. There also used to be a wall-climbing cheat
but I'm not sure if it has been fixed by now.

--
Goldberry: lvl 70 Human Rogue (5/25/31) @ Darkspear EU (PvE)
Nikíta: lvl 59 Human Rogue (25/0/25) @ Spinebreaker EU (PvP)
Anepu: lvl 46 Undead Warlock (37/0/0) @ Karazhan EU (PvP)
Lilitu: lvl 35 Undead Rogue (7/0/19) @ Karazhan EU (PvP)
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

I think it was "steve.kaye" <nospam.RemoveThis@giddy-kippers.co.uk> that wrote
something like...

>On 7 May, 13:39, deathsab....RemoveThis@yahoo.com.au (Ashen Shugar) wrote:
>> I think it was "steve.kaye" <nos....RemoveThis@giddy-kippers.co.uk> that wrote
>> something like...
>>
>> >On 7 May, 13:07, "Shammy" <n....RemoveThis@nothing.com> wrote:
>> >> a> Start shiving more frequently if he uses evasion, shiv cannot be
>> >> a> dodged.
>> >> a> Note also, that even with evasion up, attacks from behind cannot be
>> >> a> dodged.
>>
>> >> It always seems that my attacks get dodged/blocked/paried even from behind
>> >> hmm gotta test this out a bit.
>>
>> >I'm also not convinced that that piece of code works 100%. My friend
>> >is often complaining that they (mobs) shouldn't be able to dodge,
>> >block or parry his backstabs. I'm sure that I've seen some attacks
>> >from behind be dodged too.
>>
>> >steve.kaye
>>
>> I think I read somewhere that you have to be at least a certain
>> distance behind a mob for it count as being behind. If you're
>> standing on their heels, then it can still count as being in front of
>> them.
>
>On a related note, I hate the way that they handle big mobs.
>Sometimes you have to actually be *in* the mob to be close enough to
>hit it.
>
>
>> And of course there's always the latency issue. By the time your
>> attack gets to the server, the target may no longer be facing away
>> from you. More of an issue for us on the wrong side of the pacific
>> though. ; )
>
>The latency thing shouldn't be an issue for backstab or mutilate. If
>it allows the attack it should know that it can't be dodged, blocked
>or parried because it must be from behind. I can see that it would be
>a problem for attacks that don't need to be done from behind.
>
>steve.kaye

The client can allow you to attempt things that end up being
impossible once they actually get to the server.
Playing from Australia there's no real way around the fact that your
re-actions to anything occur 1 second after what you're re-acting to
do. Half a second for the action to reach your client then another
half second for your reaction to get back to the server. By which
time, you're too late for whatever you were re-acting to, and another
half second later you get told that the action wasn't something you
were allowed to do. But as I recall, you still have to wait for the
global cooldown from the action you didn't actually do, as the client
end handles that and is only somewhat synchronised with the server.
The client end will allow/disallow certain actions, though the server
has final say.

So while the client is showing the mobs back to you, that's actually
what was happening half a second ago. Still, the client will allow
you to *cast* a backstab. By the time it gets to the server though,
the mob may have already turned around and be facing you, so the
server throws the backstab attack away/ignores it.

Probably not so noticeable in the USA where your latency is so much
lower. Still, a slight delay of the backstab packet on its way to the
server may not be enough to effect your reported latency, but might
still be enough that it doesn't get to the server before the mob turns
and faces you.

Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

I think it was "Mark (newsgroups)" <marknewsgroups.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> that
wrote something like...

>On May 7, 2:00 pm, "steve.kaye" <nos....TakeThisOut@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 7 May, 13:39, deathsab....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com.au (Ashen Shugar) wrote:
>> > And of course there's always the latency issue. By the time your
>> > attack gets to the server, the target may no longer be facing away
>> > from you. More of an issue for us on the wrong side of the pacific
>> > though. ; )
>>
>> The latency thing shouldn't be an issue for backstab or mutilate. If
>> it allows the attack it should know that it can't be dodged, blocked
>> or parried because it must be from behind. I can see that it would be
>> a problem for attacks that don't need to be done from behind.
>
>Those are my thoughts too. And it's definitely not 100% correct
>because I've seen my shred (feral attack) parried by mobs. Officially,
>a mob can't parry while you're behind them, and shred is an attack
>that only works when you're behind.

Oh yeah, for attacks that can only be done from behind that get
parried/etc, then latency couldn't be the issue. Only for attacks
that can occur whenever could latency cause a parry/etc even though it
appeared you were behind the mob where it should have been impossible
for them to parry/etc. My bad. I wandered a bit off topic I think.
I blame being tired. Hadn't kept up with the conversation. ; )

That can only be the standing too close thingy I think. *shrug*

Ashen Shugar
--
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

a> Start shiving more frequently if he uses evasion, shiv cannot be
a> dodged.
a> Note also, that even with evasion up, attacks from behind cannot be
a> dodged.

It always seems that my attacks get dodged/blocked/paried even from behind
hmm gotta test this out a bit.

a> Also, if you're deep subtlety, a useful tip against rogues with
a> evasion up.
a> When you have 4 or 5 combo points, apply cloak of shadows (to remove
a> crippling poison) and run away from the other rogue. He will start to
a> follow you (typically with rupture and crippling on). As you gain
a> some distance, shadowstep and kidney. He cannot dodge your kidney
a> from behind. By the time kidney is over is evasion should be almost
a> out.

I'm a dwarf rogue I have the racial to be poison/bleed/desease immune for 8
sec and to remove it so the rupture tactic isnt the best to prevent me to
restealth ^^ But i have to try the SS + KS combo on an evasion rogue.
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

> I'm also not convinced that that piece of code works 100%. My friend
> is often complaining that they (mobs) shouldn't be able to dodge,
> block or parry his backstabs. I'm sure that I've seen some attacks
> from behind be dodged too.

Well, i can hit evasion rogues from behind fairly frequently. If I get a
dodge, I usually put it down to latency (they can be quite frenetic).
However, the Shs -> kidney works awesomely the majority of the time. The
reason I say to run away from them is mostly to avoid latency issues. If
you're in close and you try it, the sheer frenetic pace of the fight can
have you miss the kidney because you're both spinning around trying to get
behind each other with crippling on... If you run away. They tend to run
toward you and stop spinning around. Meaning, more often than not, you avoid
the latency issue.

I have had avoided the rupture opening before, by blinding out of cheap
shot. Then the timing come is, as you leave combat with rupture on you. Make
sure you're near the opposing rogue. Then stealth and sap. You should manage
this fairly easily between the rupture ticks. By the time sap runs out,
rupture should have ended and you can restealth and open properly.

I felt fairly pro the few times I've done that ;p

ave
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

sk> And whilst we're onto Druids. I've seen any number of beasts -
sk> including bears - block my attacks. Why can't Druid tanks block
sk> then?

Every time a beast blocks/parry my attack I think of that...
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

"steve.kaye" <nospam.TakeThisOut@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:

>* I'm losing the rogue vs rogue opening stealth game a lot now. I
>don't know why as I still have the stealth detection talent maxed
>out. Maybe a lot of rogues have the stealth detection goggles? It's
>not always the human perception that gives the win as I've lost vs
>other races too. Maybe it's just that I'm out of practice as I've
>only been in a few BGs since level 49.

Cheap-shot is one of those abilities that will auto-target the
nearest enemy in front of you if you use it without a target. The
easiest way to get the jump on a stealthed rogue or druid you
suspect is around is to be spamming cheap-shot with no target. The
moment they come into detectable range, you'll have them targetted
and stunned as soon as close enough. Even if they see you first, you
can often get the first hit in this way - or at least mutually
cheap-shot each other.

>* I *really* love the Shadowstep + Kidney Shot combo as a counter to
>the Mage's blink. They don't often get a second blink in even with my
>poor gear. Also, I find it odd how many mages don't blink out of
>cheap shot.

Mages don't blink out of cheap-shot because they expect you to
shadow-step and kidney-shot. They'll wait and blink out of
kidney-shot, leaving you with low energy and no combo points.

>I try to remember to use garrote but finger memory often
>presses cheap shot instead but it still lasts the full duration a lot.

Garotte is only really good against high armour targets you want to
kite - warriors mainly.

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

"steve.kaye" <nospam.TakeThisOut@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:

>* You can get to the upper floor of AV bunkers from outside using
>Shadowstep on an archer to avoid any players watching the door. It's
>very easy to fall right back down again though

Yup. Shadowstep is very useful for tricks like that. Shadowstep &
sap is a useful macro. In WSG, you can shadowstep from the flag room
floor up to the balcony, or up to the roof, from below the graveyard
up to the graveyard (quick way up with the flag!). Of course you
need a suitably placed enemy to step to (hence the sap). I
discovered the other day that when the alliance are cheating and
hiding the flag on top of walls you aren't supposed to be able to
get to, you can shadowstep to them as well. =>

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

"Mark (newsgroups)" <marknewsgroups.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Heheh, well another thing I noticed. It's possible for Alliance to get
>into the outer part of FW without going through the gate, one a mount
>(epic, perhaps normal too) you can ride and jump over the fence about
>40 yards left of the gate. That seems kind of odd, unless there is a
>way into the Alliance base that doesn't involve crossing the bridge
>that I don't know about.

There is - for rogues. You can shadow-step up into the base from the
south - you can get just close enough to the stable manager npc and
the terrain doesn't block line-of-sight.

>Also, frustrating that Alliance can assault towers without having to
>worry about archers.

That one should have been fixed long ago.

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

"Shammy" <none.DeleteThis@nothing.com> wrote:

>Back on the rogue topic, did you notice how fun is rogue vs rogue? Even if
>you jump him first you never know when will you get a blind/vanish/cheap
>shot back, or many times we cheap shot or sap each other same time, or you
>cheap shot him then he blind you then you trinket out and blind him back etc

Can be amusing when you get back exactly what you give - cheap-shot
each other, then kidney-shot each other, then gouge each other, then
blind each other...

>or you both pop evasion and cant hit each other till it's over :p

Tip: Shiv *always* hits.

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

"ave" <ave.RemoveThis@nomailplease.com> wrote:

>Fighting a rogue as a rogue, you must try to prevent restealth on him.
>Typically by having rupture on him at all times.

Rupture is only a minor annoyance for restealthing and means you
haven't stunned him - he's now free to stunlock you...

>If he opens with cheap shot followed by kidney, you should immediately
>trinket and blind. Which should leave you with no rupture (he spent his
>combo points on the kidney). The difficult part then follows.
>
>If he stays blinded, restealth, cheap shot and rupture *before* cheap shot
>runs out. This way, if he blinds you, he can't restealth (your trinket was
>used for your own blind on him).
>
>If he trinkets your blind, you vanish. If you're lucky, you should vanish
>his blind. Making him waste it.

If he stays blinded, you can restealth and stunlock him. Kidney-shot
is always a better choice than rupture, IMO. Rupture does not stop
him restealthing, just means he has to time stealth+cheap-shot right
after a damage tick, which is very easy since he can position
himself perfectly while you can do nothing.

Personally I wouldn't use my trinket on the initial kidney-shot, but
wait until he blinded/gouged to restealth - then trinket, vanish and
cheap-shot. Chances are you'll have him in stunlock before he can
react.

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

"Ola Forsström" <olaforsstrom.DeleteThis@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:

>steve.kaye wrote:
>
>> * Blind is still excellent..... unless somebody breaks it for you.
>
>...or you do it yourself by Blinding the opponent while Rupture is still
>ticking. /facepalm

Another good point - if you rupture another rogue, you remove the
option to blind and bandage/restealth. Save the ruptures for kiting
warriors.

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

D> Cheap-shot is one of those abilities that will auto-target the
D> nearest enemy in front of you if you use it without a target. The
D> easiest way to get the jump on a stealthed rogue or druid you suspect
D> is around is to be spamming cheap-shot with no target. The moment
D> they come into detectable range, you'll have them targetted and
D> stunned as soon as close enough. Even if they see you first, you can
D> often get the first hit in this way - or at least mutually cheap-shot
D> each other.

Thanks for the tip ^^


D> Mages don't blink out of cheap-shot because they expect you to
D> shadow-step and kidney-shot. They'll wait and blink out of
D> kidney-shot, leaving you with low energy and no combo points.

Well I wont kidney shot them in that case I have no problem wasting a few
combo points and wait for that blink, and in case they dont blink they are
dead anyway.
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs