Rogue dings 70 and does BGs

On May 7, 8:45 am, "steve.kaye" <nos....TakeThisOut@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:
> My Rogue dinged 70 on Friday and started building up her blue pvp
> set.
>
> She can't get the Keepers of Time item as she hasn't got the rep and I
> have no intention of running the instances for it.  I'm just pvping
> with this character as I have enough options for pve play.  She didn't
> have the lower city rep she needed so I went to kill some arakkoas.
> Actually, I needed about 400 feathers so make that a lot of arakkoas.
> With about 15 feathers to go my friend mentions over teamspeak that
> he's doing the orphan quest and that it's getting about 250 rep per
> stage.  Bugger - that would have saved me a few hours.  I finish
> grinding out all the feathers and I hand them in.  I've miscalculated
> and I've got one extra stack of feathers but no problem as my priest
> would like the prayer book so I send it to her.
>
> She's now ready to start BGs.  Here are some things I've noticed:
>
> *  With her sub-par gear the cheat death talent is just a pretty flash
> of light as she dies.  In the lower level BGs it was a brilliant
> talent and usually lasted the whole duration but not so much now.  I'm
> sure that it'll get better with better gear.
>
> *  Blind is still excellent..... unless somebody breaks it for you.  I
> must have been killed about half a dozen times this weekend by people
> "helping" me in a 1v1 fight that I'd possibly turned around with a
> timely blind.  I blind and start bandaging and get nowhere because
> someone broke blind straight away and my blind target breaks my
> bandaging and kills me shortly afterwards.
>
> * I'm losing the rogue vs rogue opening stealth game a lot now.  I
> don't know why as I still have the stealth detection talent maxed
> out.  Maybe a lot of rogues have the stealth detection goggles?  It's
> not always the human perception that gives the win as I've lost vs
> other races too.  Maybe it's just that I'm out of practice as I've
> only been in a few BGs since level 49.
>
> * I really can't count how many times Cloak of Shadows + Vanish has
> saved my life - sometimes allowing me to run away and sometimes
> allowing me to win.  It's a great ability against warlocks, moonfire
> spamming druids and priests.  I rarely use it to win a fight - I
> mainly use it to run away - so I'll have to get better at that.
>
> * I *really* love the Shadowstep + Kidney Shot combo as a counter to
> the Mage's blink.  They don't often get a second blink in even with my
> poor gear.  Also, I find it odd how many mages don't blink out of
> cheap shot.  I try to remember to use garrote but finger memory often
> presses cheap shot instead but it still lasts the full duration a lot.
>
> * With my poor gear all healers are hard for me to kill.  Priests seem
> to be the easiest, then Shamans.  I couldn't say which is harder
> between Paladins and Druids.  Paladins are easier to interrupt but
> they take me so long to kill that I quickly run out of interrupt
> options.  Druids seem to magically be able to get a hot off even
> whilst stun-locked.  I don't know how that's done as *my* Druid can't
> do that.

You sure it's a HoT and not just the druid resto talent Natural
Perfection that procs on crits? It sounds exactly like a normal HoT.

Speaking of which, it's getting nerfed in 2.4.2 apparently. For some
reason Blizzard are going back on their word that PvP isn't meant to
be balanced for 2v2 (about the only place druids are over represented).
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

On 7 May, 09:30, "Shammy" <n....DeleteThis@nothing.com> wrote:
> Hello, steve.kaye!
> You wrote  on Wed, 7 May 2008 00:45:01 -0700 (PDT):
>
>  sk> My Rogue dinged 70 on Friday and started building up her blue pvp
> sk> set.
>
> Gz!
>
> sk> [snip KoT rep and grinding feathers]

> Hmm wouldnt it be faster to just do a SH /SL run than to grind arakoa for
> hours?

Maybe but it's done now so no worries


> As for KOT rep it's enough 1 run in durnholde + BM with that sick quest you
> get rep to almost revered.

Yeah, I realise that it will be quick but I can't be bothered with
instances. I want to PvP.


> sk> * I really can't count how many times Cloak of Shadows + Vanish has
> sk> saved my life - sometimes allowing me to run away and sometimes
> sk> allowing me to win.  It's a great ability against warlocks, moonfire
> sk> spamming druids and priests.  I rarely use it to win a fight - I
> sk> mainly use it to run away - so I'll have to get better at that.
>
> TIP never use CloS too early when fighting a lock, I usually dont even use
> it if I have only 1 DOT on me and the situation isnt critical.

Yeah, I usually leave it until there is a full stack of warlock dots
on me before I use it. My problem is not that I use it too soon but
that I often forget about it and use it when I need to vanish.


> sk> * You can get to the upper floor of AV bunkers from outside using
> sk> Shadowstep on an archer to avoid any players watching the door.
> sk> It's very easy to fall right back down again though  
>
> TIP when you SS on a tower dont move, many times I was running to SS on a
> tower to fall back down. SS then stop a sec then move.

SS can really throw you off as it changes the way you face and gives a
sprint buff for a bit of an extra disorient effect. I did work
out that it was best to pause for 1/2 a second before moving.


> TIP2 in FW you can jump from 1 tower to the other with SS just jump down
> with the archer targeted and press SS when in range and you are on top of
> the other tower ^^

OMG! Nerf Allies - AV is *totally* unbalanced!!! They need to move
the DB bunkers closer together or the FW towers further apart!

steve.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

On 7 May, 09:29, "Mark (newsgroups)" <marknewsgro... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 7, 8:45 am, "steve.kaye" <nos... RemoveThis @giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:

> > * With my poor gear all healers are hard for me to kill.  Priests seem
> > to be the easiest, then Shamans.  I couldn't say which is harder
> > between Paladins and Druids.  Paladins are easier to interrupt but
> > they take me so long to kill that I quickly run out of interrupt
> > options.  Druids seem to magically be able to get a hot off even
> > whilst stun-locked.  I don't know how that's done as *my* Druid can't
> > do that.
>
> You sure it's a HoT and not just the druid resto talent Natural
> Perfection that procs on crits? It sounds exactly like a normal HoT.

That could be it. Does it look like a HoT too with swirly green stuff
around them?

steve.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

On May 7, 9:49 am, "steve.kaye" <nos... RemoveThis @giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:
> On 7 May, 09:30, "Shammy" <n... RemoveThis @nothing.com> wrote:
> > TIP2 in FW you can jump from 1 tower to the other with SS just jump down
> > with the archer targeted and press SS when in range and you are on top of
> > the other tower ^^
>
> OMG!  Nerf Allies - AV is *totally* unbalanced!!!  They need to move
> the DB bunkers closer together or the FW towers further apart!  

Heheh, well another thing I noticed. It's possible for Alliance to get
into the outer part of FW without going through the gate, one a mount
(epic, perhaps normal too) you can ride and jump over the fence about
40 yards left of the gate. That seems kind of odd, unless there is a
way into the Alliance base that doesn't involve crossing the bridge
that I don't know about.

Also, frustrating that Alliance can assault towers without having to
worry about archers.
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

On 7 May, 13:07, "Shammy" <n... RemoveThis @nothing.com> wrote:
> a> Start shiving more frequently if he uses evasion, shiv cannot be
> a> dodged.
> a> Note also, that even with evasion up, attacks from behind cannot be
> a> dodged.
>
> It always seems that my attacks get dodged/blocked/paried even from behind
> hmm gotta test this out a bit.

I'm also not convinced that that piece of code works 100%. My friend
is often complaining that they (mobs) shouldn't be able to dodge,
block or parry his backstabs. I'm sure that I've seen some attacks
from behind be dodged too.

steve.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

On 7 May, 13:39, deathsab....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com.au (Ashen Shugar) wrote:
> I think it was "steve.kaye" <nos....TakeThisOut@giddy-kippers.co.uk> that wrote
> something like...
>
> >On 7 May, 13:07, "Shammy" <n....TakeThisOut@nothing.com> wrote:
> >> a> Start shiving more frequently if he uses evasion, shiv cannot be
> >> a> dodged.
> >> a> Note also, that even with evasion up, attacks from behind cannot be
> >> a> dodged.
>
> >> It always seems that my attacks get dodged/blocked/paried even from behind
> >> hmm gotta test this out a bit.
>
> >I'm also not convinced that that piece of code works 100%.  My friend
> >is often complaining that they (mobs) shouldn't be able to dodge,
> >block or parry his backstabs.  I'm sure that I've seen some attacks
> >from behind be dodged too.
>
> >steve.kaye
>
> I think I read somewhere that you have to be at least a certain
> distance behind a mob for it count as being behind.  If you're
> standing on their heels, then it can still count as being in front of
> them.

On a related note, I hate the way that they handle big mobs.
Sometimes you have to actually be *in* the mob to be close enough to
hit it.


> And of course there's always the latency issue.  By the time your
> attack gets to the server, the target may no longer be facing away
> from you.  More of an issue for us on the wrong side of the pacific
> though. ; )

The latency thing shouldn't be an issue for backstab or mutilate. If
it allows the attack it should know that it can't be dodged, blocked
or parried because it must be from behind. I can see that it would be
a problem for attacks that don't need to be done from behind.

steve.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

On May 7, 2:00 pm, "steve.kaye" <nos....DeleteThis@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:
> On 7 May, 13:39, deathsab....DeleteThis@yahoo.com.au (Ashen Shugar) wrote:
> > And of course there's always the latency issue.  By the time your
> > attack gets to the server, the target may no longer be facing away
> > from you.  More of an issue for us on the wrong side of the pacific
> > though. ; )
>
> The latency thing shouldn't be an issue for backstab or mutilate.  If
> it allows the attack it should know that it can't be dodged, blocked
> or parried because it must be from behind.  I can see that it would be
> a problem for attacks that don't need to be done from behind.

Those are my thoughts too. And it's definitely not 100% correct
because I've seen my shred (feral attack) parried by mobs. Officially,
a mob can't parry while you're behind them, and shred is an attack
that only works when you're behind.
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

On 7 May, 14:06, "Mark (newsgroups)" <marknewsgro....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 7, 2:00 pm, "steve.kaye" <nos....TakeThisOut@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On 7 May, 13:39, deathsab....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com.au (Ashen Shugar) wrote:
> > > And of course there's always the latency issue.  By the time your
> > > attack gets to the server, the target may no longer be facing away
> > > from you.  More of an issue for us on the wrong side of the pacific
> > > though. ; )
>
> > The latency thing shouldn't be an issue for backstab or mutilate.  If
> > it allows the attack it should know that it can't be dodged, blocked
> > or parried because it must be from behind.  I can see that it would be
> > a problem for attacks that don't need to be done from behind.
>
> Those are my thoughts too. And it's definitely not 100% correct
> because I've seen my shred (feral attack) parried by mobs. Officially,
> a mob can't parry while you're behind them, and shred is an attack
> that only works when you're behind.

And whilst we're onto Druids. I've seen any number of beasts -
including bears - block my attacks. Why can't Druid tanks block
then?

steev.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

On 7 May, 14:53, "ave" <a....RemoveThis@nomailplease.com> wrote:

> I have had avoided the rupture opening before, by blinding out of cheap
> shot. Then the timing come is, as you leave combat with rupture on you. Make
> sure you're near the opposing rogue. Then stealth and sap. You should manage
> this fairly easily between the rupture ticks. By the time sap runs out,
> rupture should have ended and you can restealth and open properly.
>
> I felt fairly pro the few times I've done that ;p



I do like 1v1 rogue fights. I'm sometimes a little disappointed when
someone comes and joins in leaving me wondering how it would have
played out on its own. It's particularly good if you are doing well
against a higher level / better geared rogue.

steve.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

Hello, steve.kaye!
You wrote on Wed, 7 May 2008 00:45:01 -0700 (PDT):

sk> My Rogue dinged 70 on Friday and started building up her blue pvp
sk> set.

Gz!

sk> She can't get the Keepers of Time item as she hasn't got the rep and
sk> I have no intention of running the instances for it. I'm just
sk> pvping with this character as I have enough options for pve play.
sk> She didn't have the lower city rep she needed so I went to kill some
sk> arakkoas.
sk> Actually, I needed about 400 feathers so make that a lot of
sk> arakkoas.
sk> With about 15 feathers to go my friend mentions over teamspeak that
sk> he's doing the orphan quest and that it's getting about 250 rep per
sk> stage. Bugger - that would have saved me a few hours. I finish
sk> grinding out all the feathers and I hand them in. I've
sk> miscalculated and I've got one extra stack of feathers but no
sk> problem as my priest would like the prayer book so I send it to her.

Hmm wouldnt it be faster to just do a SH /SL run than to grind arakoa for
hours?
As for KOT rep it's enough 1 run in durnholde + BM with that sick quest you
get rep to almost revered.


sk> * With her sub-par gear the cheat death talent is just a pretty
sk> flash of light as she dies. In the lower level BGs it was a
sk> brilliant talent and usually lasted the whole duration but not so
sk> much now. I'm sure that it'll get better with better gear.

Cheat death depends on when it activates, if you absorb a hard hit and cheat
death activates at 1000+ hp then it will last full duration and if it
activates at 100 hp you will die fast.

sk> * Blind is still excellent..... unless somebody breaks it for you.
sk> I must have been killed about half a dozen times this weekend by
sk> people "helping" me in a 1v1 fight that I'd possibly turned around
sk> with a timely blind. I blind and start bandaging and get nowhere
sk> because someone broke blind straight away and my blind target breaks
sk> my bandaging and kills me shortly afterwards.

Sap + bind is great (if noone breaks it :p) combined you can get someone out
of combat for 20 sec.

sk> * I'm losing the rogue vs rogue opening stealth game a lot now. I
sk> don't know why as I still have the stealth detection talent maxed
sk> out. Maybe a lot of rogues have the stealth detection goggles?
sk> It's not always the human perception that gives the win as I've lost
sk> vs other races too. Maybe it's just that I'm out of practice as
sk> I've only been in a few BGs since level 49.

Btw there is some +stealth enchant for cloak but dunno how many use it.
But IMO it's just luck of who see the other 1 first.

sk> * I really can't count how many times Cloak of Shadows + Vanish has
sk> saved my life - sometimes allowing me to run away and sometimes
sk> allowing me to win. It's a great ability against warlocks, moonfire
sk> spamming druids and priests. I rarely use it to win a fight - I
sk> mainly use it to run away - so I'll have to get better at that.

TIP never use CloS too early when fighting a lock, I usually dont even use
it if I have only 1 DOT on me and the situation isnt critical.


sk> * I *really* love the Shadowstep + Kidney Shot combo as a counter to
sk> the Mage's blink. They don't often get a second blink in even with
sk> my poor gear. Also, I find it odd how many mages don't blink out of
sk> cheap shot. I try to remember to use garrote but finger memory
sk> often presses cheap shot instead but it still lasts the full
sk> duration a lot.

The SS + KS combo on mage is just lol, I dont think a mage can kill a rogue
atm if both play well. As for blinking out of CS is just useless atm, since
after blink there is SS + KS what's the point? They may as well just drop
dead when they see a rogue :p

sk> * With my poor gear all healers are hard for me to kill. Priests
sk> seem to be the easiest, then Shamans. I couldn't say which is
sk> harder between Paladins and Druids. Paladins are easier to
sk> interrupt but they take me so long to kill that I quickly run out of
sk> interrupt options. Druids seem to magically be able to get a hot
sk> off even whilst stun-locked. I don't know how that's done as *my*
sk> Druid can't do that.

Healers are hell and some more than others. First of all let's assume all
healers have decent gear.
Disc priests - you cant kill them alone but you can shut them down like 70%
since you cant stop instant casts.
Druids - You can make them like 50% less effective but you cant even dream
of killing 1 alone he will always have 3 stacks of lifebloom and
rejuvenation on and 100% hp that when you take to 50% with stuns he will
just heal up.
Shammy - You can shut down their healing 100% but they go down REALLY slow
cause of high armor and that earth shield.
Pally - Same as shammy, easy to shut down but hard to burn down fast with
the differnce they will shield and heal up at some point, and then you burn
them down again and they lay on hands (I know 1h CD but extremly frustrating
when it happens)

sk> I see that most of my problems seem to be gear related but I
sk> expected that as it was the same with my Priest and my Druid. It's
sk> still fun though. I really don't like pvping with my Druid anymore
sk> as I don't seem to be flexible enough. I tend to stay in a form and
sk> play as that form too long. I've tried to change this mentality but
sk> I continue to do it wrong and I've given up now.

I understand you, same with my druid even with all the shifting something is
missing (WTB normal interrupts and SLOWING!!)

sk> * You can get to the upper floor of AV bunkers from outside using
sk> Shadowstep on an archer to avoid any players watching the door.
sk> It's very easy to fall right back down again though

TIP when you SS on a tower dont move, many times I was running to SS on a
tower to fall back down. SS then stop a sec then move.
TIP2 in FW you can jump from 1 tower to the other with SS just jump down
with the archer targeted and press SS when in range and you are on top of
the other tower ^^
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

> That could be it. Does it look like a HoT too with swirly green stuff
> around them?

If it looks like vines, it's bark skin.
If it's a glowy 'slime green' color it's probably natural perfection as
mentioned.

Bark skin can be used when stunned and also prevents pushback when casting
spells.

ave
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

Mn> Heheh, well another thing I noticed. It's possible for Alliance to
Mn> get into the outer part of FW without going through the gate, one a
Mn> mount (epic, perhaps normal too) you can ride and jump over the
Mn> fence about 40 yards left of the gate. That seems kind of odd,
Mn> unless there is a way into the Alliance base that doesn't involve
Mn> crossing the bridge that I don't know about.

Mn> Also, frustrating that Alliance can assault towers without having to
Mn> worry about archers.

Look it from the other side too, the FW tower archers can shoot you down on
the other tower making it impossible for 1 person to kill all the archers
alone while in dun baldar you can position yourself so you kill 1 at a time.
With all the archers up 1 horde can defend the towers cause he can dps you
and just exit the tower to heal and if you follow out the archers will kill
you. And 2 horde defending on each tower can protect both towers at the same
time and the entrance to the keep while 2 alliance on a dun baldar tower can
only protect that tower and cant do anything to the other tower or even
protect the entrance to dun baldar :p

Back on the rogue topic, did you notice how fun is rogue vs rogue? Even if
you jump him first you never know when will you get a blind/vanish/cheap
shot back, or many times we cheap shot or sap each other same time, or you
cheap shot him then he blind you then you trinket out and blind him back etc
or you both pop evasion and cant hit each other till it's over :p
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs 

> Back on the rogue topic, did you notice how fun is rogue vs rogue?

Rogue v Rogue fights can be messy and violent.

> or many times we cheap shot or sap each other same time,

Dueling a rogue friend of mine one time, we managed to sap each other at the
begining of the duel -_-
When sap ran out we then managed to blind each other. Most boring start
ever, though amusing.

> or you cheap shot him then he blind you then you trinket out and blind him
> back

Fighting a rogue as a rogue, you must try to prevent restealth on him.
Typically by having rupture on him at all times.

If he opens with cheap shot followed by kidney, you should immediately
trinket and blind. Which should leave you with no rupture (he spent his
combo points on the kidney). The difficult part then follows.

If he stays blinded, restealth, cheap shot and rupture *before* cheap shot
runs out. This way, if he blinds you, he can't restealth (your trinket was
used for your own blind on him).

If he trinkets your blind, you vanish. If you're lucky, you should vanish
his blind. Making him waste it.

> etc or you both pop evasion and cant hit each other till it's over :p

Start shiving more frequently if he uses evasion, shiv cannot be dodged.
Note also, that even with evasion up, attacks from behind cannot be dodged.

Also, if you're deep subtlety, a useful tip against rogues with evasion up.
When you have 4 or 5 combo points, apply cloak of shadows (to remove
crippling poison) and run away from the other rogue. He will start to follow
you (typically with rupture and crippling on). As you gain some distance,
shadowstep and kidney. He cannot dodge your kidney from behind. By the time
kidney is over is evasion should be almost out.

ave
 >> Stay informed about: Rogue dings 70 and does BGs