Review this race please...

Arghh! the fourth-to-the-last line should read 'Even *WITHOUT* the Wis
bonus, it is still...'

Sorry 'bout that!
Yanei Wu
 >> Stay informed about: Review this race please... 

>why would these folk favor wizard and not rogue?

Probably has something to do with their neighbors the elves. Its likely
a campaign setting issue, which is why I did not comment on it. To be
honest, a wizard isn't a bad secondary class for a Tabaxian -- no worse
that it is for an elf, anyways.

Favored class hardly affects a race balance-wise anyways, so its really
a 'flavor' issue best left to the DM.
 >> Stay informed about: Review this race please... 

webhed wrote:
> Is this race balanced compared to core book races? IE, compared to
> gnomes or elves, is it fair?
>
> Vogornian (Tabaxian)
>
> Tabaxians are a subrace of Vogornian resembling domesticated cats
> instead of various types of the "great" cats (ie, lion, panther,
> tiger, etc). They have varying fur length but are all small and
> generally very light and nimble appearing.
>
> Tabaxian characters possess the following racial traits:
>
> * +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Strength, -2 Charisma

Why bother with the wisdom and charisma mods?

> * Small: As a Small creature, a Tabaxian gains a +1 size bonus to Armor
> Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide
> checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting
> and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
> * Tabaxian base land speed is 20 feet.
> * Low-Light Vision: A Tabaxian can see twice as far as a human in
> starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor
> illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail
> under these conditions.
> * +2 racial bonus on Climb checks.
> * +2 racial bonus on Hide checks.
> * +2 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
> * +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.
> * +2 racial bonus on Balance checks.
> * Automatic Languages: Common and Vogornian. Bonus Languages: Sylvan,
> Elven.
> * Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass Tabaxian's wizard class does
> not count when determining whether she takes an experience point
> penalty.

why would these folk favor wizard and not rogue?

> * Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4).
>
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Shawn I Roske wrote:
> webhed wrote:
>
>> Is this race balanced compared to core book races? IE, compared to
>> gnomes or elves, is it fair?
>>
>> Vogornian (Tabaxian)
>>
>> Tabaxians are a subrace of Vogornian resembling domesticated cats
>> instead of various types of the "great" cats (ie, lion, panther,
>> tiger, etc). They have varying fur length but are all small and
>> generally very light and nimble appearing.
>>
>> Tabaxian characters possess the following racial traits:
>>
>> * +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Strength, -2 Charisma
>
>
> Why bother with the wisdom and charisma mods?
>
>> * Small: As a Small creature, a Tabaxian gains a +1 size bonus to Armor
>> Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide
>> checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting
>> and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
>> * Tabaxian base land speed is 20 feet.
>> * Low-Light Vision: A Tabaxian can see twice as far as a human in
>> starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor
>> illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail
>> under these conditions.
>> * +2 racial bonus on Climb checks.
>> * +2 racial bonus on Hide checks.
>> * +2 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
>> * +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.
>> * +2 racial bonus on Balance checks.
>> * Automatic Languages: Common and Vogornian. Bonus Languages: Sylvan,
>> Elven.
>> * Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass Tabaxian's wizard class does
>> not count when determining whether she takes an experience point
>> penalty.
>
>
> why would these folk favor wizard and not rogue?
>
>> * Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4).
>>

Why do elves favor wizard and not rogue?
Why do gnolls favor ranger and not fighter or barbarian?

Your favored class is often cultural rather than genetic it would seem.
 >> Stay informed about: Review this race please... 

Tetsubo wrote:
> So I would boost that Jump bonus up to +8 if you want a decent Jump
> Skill...

While playing with my cat last night and watching the amazing jumps he
was performing chasing a fake rat on a string I was thinking the same
thing. Cats are freaking incredible jumpers. Also, I had forgotten
about the penalty to jump based on speed. I'll fix that, thanks!

> Why the WS bonus and a prefeered class of Wizard? Why a CH penalty?

I did the Wis bonus because I thought it would play into their
increased alertness/awareness, ie, give a bonus to spot and listen
checks. I did the penalty to Cha because I think most cats have a
stereotype of being aloof and uncaring (however untrue that may be that
is). I know some may find them cute and friendly, but more often I have
heard people talk of cats in a more negative way.

> I'll be honest and say I'm not sure if either version (your's or
> mine) is balanced. Have you checked out the RaceCalc program? Where are
> the Vogornian from?

I don't think I've seen the RaceCalc program. Do you have a link?

Thanks,

John
 >> Stay informed about: Review this race please... 

WuYanei wrote:
> Ouch! A total +12 bonus to skill checks. Still, let us compair the race
> with to a halfling:

I actually started with a Gnome and then started taking things away.
Compare to what a Gnome has and its actually a bit weaker I think.

> +2 Wis / -2 Cha is a clear net gain, since charisma is a less useful
> attribute.

The DMG (pg. 173) says if you give a bonus to Wisdom to offset it with
a penalty to either Intelligence or Charisma.

> In addition, a natural
> weapon means that the creature will always threaten it nearby squares,
> and can not ever be disarmed.
> Even with the Wis bonus, it is still an attractive race for a
> rogue, wizard or druid. The reduced claw damage simply makes them
> always 'carry' a dagger instead of a shortsword, which is more
> reasonable IMHO.

I had debated making the claws d3 damage but just went with d4 to make
it better than punching someone. Do others think d4 is too good? Should
I go with d3?

John
 >> Stay informed about: Review this race please... 

WuYanei wrote:
> >why would these folk favor wizard and not rogue?
>
> Probably has something to do with their neighbors the elves. Its likely
> a campaign setting issue, which is why I did not comment on it. To be
> honest, a wizard isn't a bad secondary class for a Tabaxian -- no worse
> that it is for an elf, anyways.
>
> Favored class hardly affects a race balance-wise anyways, so its really
> a 'flavor' issue best left to the DM.

Precisely. Thanks WuYanei.
 >> Stay informed about: Review this race please... 

Tetsubo wrote:
> Where are the Vogornian from?

Sorry, I missed this question the first time. The Vogornians are a race
of cat people from my campaign world.

I'll be honest in admitting that I copied the word Vogornian from
somewhere else many years ago, though I forget where. Something tells
me that it somehow came from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy book,
but I really don't remember for sure. I had rules created for the more
popular cat-people types like lion men, tiger men, etc, but this was
the first time someone wanted to play a sort of domesticated cat style
Vogornian. I wanted to give them some nifty racial abilities, on par
with the other Vogornian abilities, though clearly not combat related
as the others are.
 >> Stay informed about: Review this race please... 

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, webhed wrote:

> Is this race balanced compared to core book races? IE, compared to
> gnomes or elves, is it fair?

> Vogornian (Tabaxian)

> Tabaxians are a subrace of Vogornian resembling domesticated cats
> instead of various types of the "great" cats (ie, lion, panther,
> tiger, etc). They have varying fur length but are all small and
> generally very light and nimble appearing.

> Tabaxian characters possess the following racial traits:

> * Small: As a Small creature, a Tabaxian gains a +1 size bonus to Armor
> Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide
> checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting
> and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.

Hrm... They are "Small" in the D&D definition of the word? That is, they
are *colored* like house-cats, but they are *sized* like a cougar (or so);
is that correct?

Are they "Humanoid" (bipedal, with "hands" instead of "paws" on the front
(upper) limbs)?


> * Tabaxian base land speed is 20 feet.

Are they naturally bipedal, or quadrupeds? 20' seems good for a Small
biped, but I'd go 30' if they are fully-adapted to go on all fours.

OTOH, if they're natural quadruped's, they likeky don't have grasping
fingers and opposable thumbs, which would be a BIG downside.


> * Low-Light Vision: A Tabaxian can see twice as far as a human in
> starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor
> illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail
> under these conditions.
> * +2 racial bonus on Climb checks.
> * +2 racial bonus on Hide checks.
> * +2 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
> * +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.
> * +2 racial bonus on Balance checks.
> * Automatic Languages: Common and Vogornian. Bonus Languages: Sylvan,
> Elven.
> * Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass Tabaxian's wizard class does
> not count when determining whether she takes an experience point
> penalty.
> * Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4).

I have a hard time picturing claws like those *NOT* giving a HUGE bonus
on Climb checks. Much bigger than +2.

I'm inclined to loose the claws entirely, myself (presuming they're
bipeds). Claws are a pain (literally), and as anyone knows who has
had to trim the claws of an unwilling cat, retractile claws are NOT
fully under the control of the cat: press up on the bottom of the
toe and pull back on the top, and VOILA! out comes the claw. Tell
me, how *DOES* a cat-creature NOT press with his fingers when he's
grasping an object?

OK, so it looses some "coolness" factor -- the cat-man with retractile
claws is a common trope of science-fantasy literature & games. But
frankly, that feature just doesn't make much sense... YMMV.


--

Steve Saunders
to de-spam me, de-capitalize me
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On 26 Feb 2006 08:28:56 -0800, "webhed" <jreyst RemoveThis @gmail.com> scribed into the
ether:

>Tetsubo wrote:
>> So I would boost that Jump bonus up to +8 if you want a decent Jump
>> Skill...
>
>While playing with my cat last night and watching the amazing jumps he
>was performing chasing a fake rat on a string I was thinking the same
>thing. Cats are freaking incredible jumpers. Also, I had forgotten
>about the penalty to jump based on speed. I'll fix that, thanks!

One of my mom's cats (who weighs 15+ pounds, so he's not exactly lean and
wirey) can do a standing high jump of 5 times his own height.
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webhed wrote:
> WuYanei wrote:
> > Ouch! A total +12 bonus to skill checks. Still, let us compair the race
> > with to a halfling:
>
> I actually started with a Gnome and then started taking things away.
> Compare to what a Gnome has and its actually a bit weaker I think.
>
Not really. All skills are not equal, a bonus to Craft (Alchemy) or a
situational bonus to saving throws is not the same as a bonus to 'bread
and butter' skils such as Spot, Listen, Hide, M Sil, Climb or Jump. If
you look at the Gnome's stats, you will notice that the only 'real'
skill bonus they have is the +2 bonus to Listen. As for the special
bonuses vs. giants, goblins or kobolds, that is situational and so is
totally under the DM's control -- more of a 'cool' factor than a real
boost to the race's overall power.

This is why the Gnome has so may special magical abilities, while the
halfling has so few. Yet the two are considered balanced.

I would say that your race is best compaired to a halfling, but is any
case more powerful than a Gnome (except for a Gnome Illusionist, of
course).
> > +2 Wis / -2 Cha is a clear net gain, since charisma is a less useful
> > attribute.
>
> The DMG (pg. 173) says if you give a bonus to Wisdom to offset it with
> a penalty to either Intelligence or Charisma.
>
Intelligence AND Charisma is more like it. I don't have my books with
me, but that is my opinion. This is because Cha only matters for some
builds, while a Wis bonus benefits everyone. A penalty that does not
hurt at all is simply not a penalty. (Yes, that is why many people
think the dwarf is *almost* too powerful for a LA +0 race)
> > In addition, a natural
> > weapon means that the creature will always threaten it nearby squares,
> > and can not ever be disarmed.
> > Even with the Wis bonus, it is still an attractive race for a
> > rogue, wizard or druid. The reduced claw damage simply makes them
> > always 'carry' a dagger instead of a shortsword, which is more
> > reasonable IMHO.
>
> I had debated making the claws d3 damage but just went with d4 to make
> it better than punching someone. Do others think d4 is too good? Should
> I go with d3?
>
I say yes, you should reduce the claws to d3. Small creatures punch for
d2 damage, d3 is already better. Plus the 'always threaten' issue.
> John
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webhed wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> I'll be honest in admitting that I copied the word Vogornian from
> somewhere else many years ago, though I forget where. Something tells
> me that it somehow came from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy book,
> but I really don't remember for sure. <snip>

The Vorgons, who blew up the Earth to make way for a hyperspace bypass.


Arivne
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webhed wrote:
> WuYanei wrote:
> > Ouch! A total +12 bonus to skill checks. Still, let us compair the race
> > with to a halfling:
>
> I actually started with a Gnome and then started taking things away.
> Compare to what a Gnome has and its actually a bit weaker I think.
>

Why not start with say a cat, then adjust to be balanced?

Of course you probably want to bring them up to small from tiny.

So doing that we would get

Size: Small
Speed: 30' (hey if it's good enough for kobolds & goblins, and cats
have 30' at tiny anyway, if you count -10' for anthopomorphasizing and
+10' for the size catagory this is what you get)
2 claws d2, and bite d3 (going up a size would normally increase claws,
but I consider anthopomorphasizing to lower by one category)
low light vision, scent.
-4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -4 Cha (adjusted for size, Int doesn't
translate)
Cats have a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks
and a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks. Cats have a +8 racial bonus on
Balance checks. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their
Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. *In areas of tall grass or
heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8

It'd make a pretty interesting character. I can't really see it being
used for anything but a pure wis based spellcaster, cleric or druid.
Maybe rogues. The low cha is going to hurt both of those (animal
handling for druid, turning for cleric) though not necessarily enough
to offset the wis gain, and low str really hurt a rogue. I'm also wary
of any +0 LA race with a bonus to a casting stat, the only one in
existance in core is grey elf, and that's questionable, a lot of DMs
won't allow it for PCs. Most of the animals seem to have a higher than
average wisdom, so it's possible that's just part of being a wild
animal.

I'm not sure I agree with some of the base stats for cats. One the one
hand cats are known to be curious, which IMHO would mean lower wisdom,
but on the other they are pretty hard to get to do what you want, which
would mean a better will save... They also seem to be pretty good at
getting you to do what they want (a heck of a lot better than dogs, and
most people)- which speaks to me of a better Cha. I'd probably agree
with the lower cha for other cat species, but housecats are social with
humans (although they aren't much with each other, which is really
weird), and there's lions which are social.

- Justisaur
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