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Next: Need part number and source for Sony MDP-333 belt
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External
Since: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 67
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:37 am
Post subject: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control
Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>action (more info?)
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Seems to me that the game companies are pushing a lot of unfinished
products to the market that go through a world of install and play
problems, before reluctant patches and drivers are offered .. long
after interest in the game is gone. We need some kind of
industry standards that insure the quality and performance of
a game before it can be sold to the public. We need a reviewing
agency .. probably Microsoft .. who can provide a lock-out of the
game until it meets those requirements .. only releasing that
lock-out license when the game operates properly. This is a 10
Billion dollar industry. I think we are not getting our moneys
worth when we are having to toss a $60 game in the garbage
because it is so pooly implemented. Specifically, I'm referring
to the game Men Of Valor: Vietnam. In reading reviews of that
game on several web sites, I'm amazed at the level of swearing
and cursing and frustration of gamers who have reviewed MOV.
It borders on obscene. Many of them are saying that to get
through the levels involves 200 to 300 repeats of levels that
take an hour or more, only to fail at the very last, and have to
start the level over from the beginning. There is no manual
save in the game, and autosaves are rare in certain levels.
I don't understand the coders motive for this. Did they think
if funny, or what? We should be able to submit a flawed
game like this to a review board, and the company who
produced it should be required to repair the flaw, or the
review board will refuse to "unlock" future games from
this company. MOV needs to be repaired by Vivendi, or
Vivendi needs to stop producing games until they learn
how. I see at the Xbox displays at the Shopping Malls,
many older games .. HL2, MOH, COD .. which are still
not very playable due to problems which could have
been fixed easily. These companies are pushing old
games because they simply do not have working new
games. I think those old games should be supported
and patched and brought up to modern gaming standards,
or else they should require a warning label .. like POS
.... IT MAY NOT RUN.
johns |
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External
Since: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 67
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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External
Since: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 67
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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External
Since: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 67
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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My Chinese guy on ebay gets me anything I want for $19 
He's got a mail drop in Texas, but I think he lives over the
border. CNN was calling that crew down there a bunch
of terrorists. Heh! No way. They are just selling Microsoft
products a dime on the dollar, and with mail drops in Texas,
you can pay them with VISA .. who dropped OffShore
payments. I wonder if all our gamer-jargon about AK47s
has got HomeLand Security spying on us ?? They ought
to spend more time on ebay
johns >> Stay informed about: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control |
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External
Since: Mar 08, 2005
Posts: 1091
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 17 Mar 2006 11:37:47 -0800, "johns" <johns123 RemoveThis @moscow.com> wrote:
<yawn fodder snipped>
>many older games .. HL2, MOH, COD .. which are still
>not very playable due to problems which could have
>been fixed easily.
I never finished MOH or COD, but as I have played through HL2 three
times, could you tell me what the problems with HL2 are so I can
complain to Valve?
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question. >> Stay informed about: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control |
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External
Since: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 554
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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johns wrote:
>
> What made me think of this is Vista is going to implement
> this standard against your hardware. You won't run Vista
> on a unqualified PC ...
OMG, it's coming full circle -- Microsoft is becoming Apple and vice
versa.
One of the reasons I was a Mac person in the "early" years of GUI
computing was the confidence that *every* Mac hardware device was
compatible because of the same kind of standards you suggest Vista is
setting and because many DTP programs were developed on the Mac and then
ported to the PC. Now it's totally the other way around and virus
writers are even targeting the MacOS ...
The apocalypse is nigh! 
- Sheldon
ps: I like the general idea of a "you must have fewer than three known
bugs or critical flaws to publish" policy. >> Stay informed about: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control |
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External
Since: Aug 08, 2005
Posts: 104
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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External
Since: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 67
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Like who ? I recently attended a Sun Microsystems seminar, and
during the jargon-fest, I pointed out to them that the reason they
were dropping Intel, and moving to the AMD Opteron systems
was that the GAMERS were driving the market. I was all but
asked to leave, and I got the usual snot-nosed poop from the
CS majors and professors, but I stuck to my guns, and more
and more people in the room joined in my argument. We told
Sun Microsystems that there was no way any of us was ever
going to "mount" our floppy drives again, and they could take
their $40,000 servers and stuff them. Besides, I could walk
across the street and buy parts to build an AMD based game
box that would smoke anything they had, and do it for less
than $1500. Everybody there agreed with me. We are stuck
with Microsoft because the other vendors have their heads
up their butts.
johns >> Stay informed about: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control |
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External
Since: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 1140
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 17 Mar 2006 11:37:47 -0800, "johns" <johns123.TakeThisOut@moscow.com> wrote:
>Seems to me that the game companies are pushing a lot of unfinished
>products to the market that go through a world of install and play
>problems, before reluctant patches and drivers are offered .. long
>after interest in the game is gone. We need some kind of
>industry standards that insure the quality and performance of
>a game before it can be sold to the public. We need a reviewing
>agency .. probably Microsoft .. who can provide a lock-out of the
>game until it meets those requirements .. only releasing that
>lock-out license when the game operates properly. This is a 10
>Billion dollar industry. I think we are not getting our moneys
>worth when we are having to toss a $60 game in the garbage
>because it is so pooly implemented. Specifically, I'm referring
>to the game Men Of Valor: Vietnam. In reading reviews of that
>game on several web sites, I'm amazed at the level of swearing
>and cursing and frustration of gamers who have reviewed MOV.
>It borders on obscene. Many of them are saying that to get
>through the levels involves 200 to 300 repeats of levels that
>take an hour or more, only to fail at the very last, and have to
>start the level over from the beginning. There is no manual
>save in the game, and autosaves are rare in certain levels.
Minimal auto-saves, no save-anywhere?
The only lesson learned from this prolonged rant is to avoid being
an "early-adopter". Read both the published reviews AND real
user-reviews of the game version for your hardware (PC, console X)
before parting with your money. Plus, a new game is far more likely
to be available on sale a few weeks after release.
>I don't understand the coders motive for this. Did they think
>if funny, or what? We should be able to submit a flawed
>game like this to a review board, and the company who
>produced it should be required to repair the flaw, or the
>review board will refuse to "unlock" future games from
>this company. MOV needs to be repaired by Vivendi, or
>Vivendi needs to stop producing games until they learn
>how. I see at the Xbox displays at the Shopping Malls,
>many older games .. HL2, MOH, COD .. which are still
>not very playable due to problems which could have
>been fixed easily.
Of course, little or no patch capability with an Xbox game, limited
by patch-storage space. And for that reason, developers
seldom offer console-patches. No point in fixing half the problems.
Simple jerk-gamepad games are the only ones likely to be found
without any obvious bugs in the console world.
Complex games, such as complex RTS (like Morrowind, or Oblivion),
have a near 100% probability ALWAYS of having at least one
serious game-play bug discovered after release. The reason is
statistical:-
100 ( generous number) of beta-testers x (say) 1 year of testing ( !!)
is far less effective testing time than say 100,000 players x 3weeks.
Plus beta-testers get bored/tired going over the same stuff and can
miss even simple things.. Also, the actual users interact with the
game initially in a monkey/typewriter fashion, exercising the game
logic in ways not anticipated by either the programmers or
beta-testers who have become familar with the game through multiple
test iterations.
( I have been a beta-tester for complex professional software,
have coordinated beta-testing teams and in that capacity have
studied and understand most of the key reasons why bugs sometimes
get into the wild, regardless of the best intents of the developer )
So... you want to buy a fairly complex game early in its sales cycle ?
Get the PC version and wait for patches........
> These companies are pushing old
>games because they simply do not have working new
>games. I think those old games should be supported
>and patched and brought up to modern gaming standards,
>or else they should require a warning label .. like POS
>... IT MAY NOT RUN.
>
>johns
>
Two quotes from long, long ago:-
"Act in haste, Repent at leisure"
and, specifically with regard to purchases....
"Caveat Emptor" (Lat.) ---- Let the buyer beware.
John Lewis >> Stay informed about: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control |
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External
Since: Aug 08, 2005
Posts: 104
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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External
Since: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 67
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:18 am
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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nVidia was a sponsor. And it is true. The weapons cache is
right behind the big rock on the beach when you first spawn
in the Research level ... in the demo ... bone head. As for
the embedded elements, nVidia has been doing that in
standard benchmarks too. They cut off elements of the tests
to give them higher scores. It has been a dirty little game
between them and ATI, and it is going to stop. Go Google
nVidias dirty tricks in the benchmarks and see for yourself.
It has been going on for years. As for Sun .. they like my
money. This time I bought Dell .. and got a much better
deal from a smarter company ... 6 Engineering CAD labs
up and running. Lots of pleased students.
johns >> Stay informed about: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control |
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External
Since: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 67
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:24 am
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I will. I looked for it today at the mall. I did try BF Vietnam, and
that was kind of frustrating. I just can't get into the "out of body"
experience of the squad-based games. Vietcong sounds alright.
I'm now over half way through MOV ... generally only having to
repeat a level 4 or 5 times. I'm going to finish this thing if it
hairlips me. Shame. This game could have been one of the
really great ones. It deserves to be supported and repaired.
johns >> Stay informed about: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control |
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External
Since: Jan 17, 2006
Posts: 67
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:35 am
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I simply don't have a better idea. I just wish there was someone
responsible for setting minimum standards in this industry. Maybe
what we need is a "standards" eval on new games that becomes
a label on the box .. like "Game Certified by XYZ International
Standards Committee", and that would at least mean the game
had a decent keybd config, reasonable save system, and a
contract statement from the game-maker to support the game
with patches that deal with what is reported to the Standards
Committee. That way, when I pick up the box in the store and
pay $50 for it, I know a little more about what I'm getting.
johns >> Stay informed about: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control |
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External
Since: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 1819
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:26 am
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"johns" <johns123 RemoveThis @moscow.com> looked up from reading the entrails of the
porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>Like who ? I recently attended a Sun Microsystems seminar, and
>during the jargon-fest, I pointed out to them that the reason they
>were dropping Intel, and moving to the AMD Opteron systems
>was that the GAMERS were driving the market. I was all but
>asked to leave, and I got the usual snot-nosed poop from the
>CS majors and professors, but I stuck to my guns, and more
>and more people in the room joined in my argument. We told
>Sun Microsystems that there was no way any of us was ever
>going to "mount" our floppy drives again, and they could take
>their $40,000 servers and stuff them. Besides, I could walk
>across the street and buy parts to build an AMD based game
>box that would smoke anything they had, and do it for less
>than $1500. Everybody there agreed with me. We are stuck
>with Microsoft because the other vendors have their heads
>up their butts.
1. Learn how to quote properly.
2. I'm not going to make suggestion for a company to do this - it's your
idea, i'm just saying that Microsoft is disqualified on several counts;
a. them being a game publisher, thus having a definite conflict of
interest.
b. their history of a lack of bug checking, quality control and
following standards.
c. their history of "embracing and extending" standards which renders
the standard dead.
Remember "Good Times", when e-mail viruses were a hoax, MS changed that.
Remember when the thought of a virus in a document was a joke, MS
changed that.
Have them in charge of quality controls and standards management, you
MUST be kidding.
Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr >> Stay informed about: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control |
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Since: Jan 13, 2005
Posts: 1064
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:55 am
Post subject: Re: Review 'em or sue 'em .. quality control [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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