Resillence...

> Well I'm also talking about healing... in pvp. For pve healing 23/38/0 is
> the only build worth having (for me), unless you do particular raids that
> call for circle of healing. My thought behind 20/41/0 is in how it can
> help
> my pvp healing whilst also not killing my pve ability, though I much
> prefer
> 23/x/x.

You cannot spec for healing without gimping either pvp viability or pve
viability. If you try to find a build that works for pve and pvp, you will
be sub-optimal in both.

> Hmm, it's spoilt to not like being told I shouldn't be pvping... right.

It's spoilt to say you wont talk anymore because you're not hearing what you
want to hear. I haven't been telling you not to pvp (I already said spec
what you like), all I've been saying is that disc is far superior to holy
for pvp healing and that I wouldn't play pvp with a holy priest again
because they just dont have the survivability.

> And what's wrong with being a pvp healer? I'm there to heal, be it pvp or
> pve, is that so wrong that you think I shouldn't pvp at all?

I have been saying that if all you're going to be doing in pvp, is healing.
Then you aren't going to be a quarter as useful as another healer that can
do more than heal

> Pvp healing is perfectly valid, you know - teams with healers tend
> to win over those without....

Teams with pure healers do *not* tend to win.

Druids can kite and CC. Lifebloom, swiftmend, bear form, travel form.

Paladins have bubble, lay on hands, freedom, might, hoj, bubble and cleanse.

Shamans have purge, grounding totem, earth-shock, frost-shock, windfury..

Disc priest has, power infusion, pain suppression, low mana dispel, fast
mass dispel and mana burn.

Whilst many of these can be termed 'pure' healers, they are there to heal
everyone else, they *all* bring something else to the table making them far
more useful than...

Holy priest can.... heal.... anything else is a waste of mana (okay, and
psychic scream now and then).

> if you think that pvp healing is so invalid why are you even
> replying to me when I'm making it perfectly clear I want to HEAL?

I never mentioned pvp healing healing was invalid, all I've been saying is
that if you want to do pvp healing. The best spec for priests is discipline
(typically 42/19/0).

> /shrug, it's still the same deal, call it what you want.

It's *not* the same deal. I'm not calling it anything except the standard
pvp healing build. fotm is something completely different.

> Hmm. Well aside from the running away bit, which strikes me as annoying to
> have to do on every single mob, that's pretty much what I did, usually
> finishing having lost 10-20% health and being on half mana. Possibly it
> works when you're 70 and wellgeared

I did it this way from level 10 :p Obviously missing out the parts I didn't
have the talents for until they arrived. The running away just lasts like 2
seconds while the global cooldown is up. Can leave it out if you want, wont
make much difference to the outcome. I haven't been shadow since dinging 70
with my priest.

> I want to do both.

Then you will always be sub-optimal in both. Note, I say sub-optimal. Not
unviable. Sure, you can play with any build you like. But I wouldn't expect
to get far in ratings with a sub-optimal build.

> And sorry, but losing healing abilities for no useful
> gain with disc is not being a healer.

You gain far more from disc than you lose from holy.

What exactly are you worried about losing from the holy tree? The only thing
that improves your healing is Empowered Healing and that's not a huge loss
for what you get from disc.

ave
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

A perfect example of how to blow all your mana in one go on a single mob ;o

FWIW I would recommend *not* shielding yourself before starting to attack a
mob, in fact, I would suggest not shielding yourself at all.

As for fear + mind flay later on in the fight, that just completely messes
up the 5 second rule and reduces your mana regen by a huge amount.

If you want to nuke something down as quick as possible and not worry aboout
mana downtime, I guess it fits more closely

ave
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 08:20:28 -0700, Moosen <nospam.TakeThisOut@buhbye.com> wrote:

>He is right- played properly, with proper talent selections and gear
>choices, a shadow build will be able to solo quest/level incredibly
>faster than any holy priest. Shadow is built for rapid damage output,
>and when done right, you hardly ever need to throw any heals on
>yourself. Of course you need to watch for and use all the +shadow
>damage and +spell damage gear you can get ahold of, just as you would
>look for all the +heal gear you could find if you were holy spec. This
>is critical. You don't play a shadow priest in heal spec gear and
>expect to do very well.

I don't play a holy priest in healing gear when I solo either, and do just
great. Shadow on the other hand, was painful. Even in spelldmg gear...
maybe it's great at 70 with optimised gear, I only tried at 60 when I was
levelling, but at that stage holy was *much* better.

>A key shadow talent is one of the first ones- Spirit Tap. This will
>help you regen mana fairly quickly after each kill, and improve your
>uptime before having to drink again.

As holy I have that anyway, it's *better* for holy priest than shadow
because we can focus on spirit more easily, given we have talents to get
spelldmg from spirit.

>Shadow Focus- maxed, lowers a
>mobs resistance to your shadow spells by 10%. Very big.

And a waste of points beyond 2 points - it sounds exactly like a warlock's
Suppression talent, where you only want it maxed if you regularly fight
stuff +3 lvls above you, or raid. Not an issue soloing normally

>So, exactly how do you fight things? Remember, range is your friend.
>Range and applying as much hurt to the mob as fast as possible. After
>you select a suitable victim, position yourself as far from it as
>possible and still be in range, which is over 40 yards with the Shadow
>Reach talent. Shield yourself! Always shield before combat, when
>soloing. It is cheap, and it is what will keep you from having to pop
>out of shadowform and slap heals on yourself after a fight (also
>extremely critical, is the fact that the shield keeps your casting
>from being interrupted!).

That's an interesting tip, because I always hear that shadowpriests should
*never* use shield because it's a waste of mana, and it's only for holy
priests. Wish people would make their minds up

>Lead off with a Mind Blast, for maximum starting damage while they're
>still the farthest distance away (and to get the MB cooldown timer
>started immediately). Just as the MB is going off, slap the Shadow
>Word:Pain button to get your powerful DoT ticking away on it as
>quickly as possible. As soon as it gets in range of your Mind Flay
>(which is always amazingly fast!), use it. This will do good damage
>and slow them down to where they will just be reaching you by the time
>you are ready to fire off another Mind Blast. Now they will be
>thumping on your shield- no problem, you have a while before it gets
>hammered away... as long as you aren't trying to solo something way
>too powerful for you
>
>Your MB will be ready again at that point, since you wisely chose to
>max out Imp Mind Blast. Split seconds count, in the shadow business.
>Whap it again with MB, and immediately go back to MF (Mind Flay) a
>couple more times. If the mob is still up, hit it again with MB if
>needed- usually it's pretty well gone by then. Often at that point, I
>will save mana by just wanding them until the SW:P finishes off their
>last sliver of life. Did I mention the Imp SW:P talent that extends
>your DoT by an extra 6 seconds? A great investment If you have
>managed to aquire a decent amount of +spell/shadow damage gear, this
>process will usually have finished off most mobs before they are able
>to break through your shield. If they do break through, just refresh
>the shield and go back to work.

Well that sounds exactly like what I was doing... wasn't half as good as a
good holy nuker build. As for Imp SW:P, if the mob lives long enough for
that to make a diference, how on earth can you say shadow is *faster* than
holy? I don't even use SW:P any more because the mobs don't live long
enough for the non-improved version to run its course! I took the imp
talent while levelling, sure, but at 70 in half-decent gear, if a mob lives
15 sec after casting SW:P (which of course you're not opening with, it'll
be 2nd or 3rd cast) it's lived too long, mine usually die in 10-12 sec from
starting my opening cast, so more like 8-9 sec from when I would have cast
SW:P.

>Once it's dead, be patient for a bit and let Spirit Tap run its course
>to give you back the most mana possible, then shield-up and start into
>the next victim.

Another difference with holy then - while levelling I'd do what you
describe, but now I use the spirit tap as a +dmg boost; it gives me about
100 extra spelldmg so I want to pull the next mob as fast as possible after
it procs; it still gives me enough regen to give back a fair chunk of the
mana I used anyway.

>When partied up for quests or instances, use Vampiric Embrace
>(Improved through talents, for best affect) to help heal your group,
>and remove the damned Mind Blast button from your interface!!! LOL!
>Nothing is more sad than a shadow priest used to using MB all the time
>while soloing, who thinks its the best thing since fried icecream when
>partied up. Never use MB while partied, as it will usually steal aggro
>from the tank in a heartbeat. It causes huge aggro. When partied, just
>use Mind Flay and SW:P. Lots of SW:P. Many people don't realize just
>how deadly SW:P is, when you have plenty of extra spell damage on you-
>it generally does almost 1/3 of my priest's damage.

Hmm, you're a bit out of date there? Mindblast doesn't cause extra aggro
now, that got removed in patch 2.0 if I remember rightly. Kinda annoying
doing escort quests as I have no way to quickly pull aggro off the NPC I'm
escorting!

>And now you know how to effectively play a shadow priest. If you
>weren't doing it this way, then you know exactly why your experiences
>with one sucked. Played as outlined above, a good shadow priest will
>blow through mobs many times faster than any other kind of build-
>holy, disc, hybrid, whatever. They can't even come close.

I was trying something fairly near what you were describing and seriously,
it is nowhere near as good as holy is for soloing when specced right. I
really can't see anything you're describing that I didn't do, anyway, but
it just felt slow and mana-expensive compared to holy. And now I've got my
gear and build tailored to suit me perfectly I'm definitely sticking with
holy; there's simply no reason to even try shadow when holy is better in
every way for me.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 70)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60)
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:25:04 +0100, "ave" <ave.RemoveThis@nomailplease.com> wrote:

>> Well I'm also talking about healing... in pvp. For pve healing 23/38/0 is
>> the only build worth having (for me), unless you do particular raids that
>> call for circle of healing. My thought behind 20/41/0 is in how it can
>> help
>> my pvp healing whilst also not killing my pve ability, though I much
>> prefer
>> 23/x/x.
>
>You cannot spec for healing without gimping either pvp viability or pve
>viability. If you try to find a build that works for pve and pvp, you will
>be sub-optimal in both.

Fair enough, but it's what I'm aiming to do, simply because I like pve too
much to ever spec completely away from it.

>Disc priest has, power infusion, pain suppression, low mana dispel, fast
>mass dispel and mana burn.
>
>Whilst many of these can be termed 'pure' healers, they are there to heal
>everyone else, they *all* bring something else to the table making them far
>more useful than...
>
>Holy priest can.... heal.... anything else is a waste of mana (okay, and
>psychic scream now and then).

Well I can't see power infusion or pain suppression being that useful, I
can still dispel fine (and have enough regen to be able to afford to do
so), can still manaburn... what exactly am I lacking?

>> Hmm. Well aside from the running away bit, which strikes me as annoying to
>> have to do on every single mob, that's pretty much what I did, usually
>> finishing having lost 10-20% health and being on half mana. Possibly it
>> works when you're 70 and wellgeared
>
>I did it this way from level 10 :p Obviously missing out the parts I didn't
>have the talents for until they arrived. The running away just lasts like 2
>seconds while the global cooldown is up. Can leave it out if you want, wont
>make much difference to the outcome. I haven't been shadow since dinging 70
>with my priest.

Different things work for different people then. Shadow truly sucks for
levelling in my experience, absolutely no way I'd ever spec that way again
unless only grouping and in very good gear, but I guess other folk prefer
different things.

>> And sorry, but losing healing abilities for no useful
>> gain with disc is not being a healer.
>
>You gain far more from disc than you lose from holy.

What exactly is *gained* though? You're yet to explain the benefit of a
bunch of exceedingly poor talents.

>What exactly are you worried about losing from the holy tree? The only thing
>that improves your healing is Empowered Healing and that's not a huge loss
>for what you get from disc.

I don't even have empowered healing in my present build. As for what I'd
lose, lets see what's above 19 points in holy...

Spirit of redemption= 5% spirit, benefits a few different things, and 15
sec of uninterrupted manafree healing on death. Priceless in pvp if you get
focussed, which is usually what happens in arenas. Having time to get
renew/PoM up and cast some nice big heals before finally dying often makes
a big difference.

Spiritual Guidance, well, ok, pvp gear has zero spirit but even so I have
250 spirit in my pvp gear currently so that's still byebye to 62 dmg/heal.
Not huge, but still a benefit.

Spiritual Healing - 10% more healing done, speaks for itself.

Blessed Resilience - I don't have this yet but will take it soon I think,
being almost crit immune looks very appealing.

Holy Concentration - don't have it, dunno if it can fit in a pvpish build,
but if it can be added chance of a free cast is always good.

Empowered Healing, haven't got it, it's nice in raid builds but I suspect I
don't want to drop other talents for it so unlikely to get it at this time.
Nice bonus if I could afford it but there's too many other talents.

Circle of Healing, don't have it yet, but instant cast heal, nuff said.
When there's rogues around all I can use is instants or I get locked out of
holy for 5 sec, so having an instant heal with no cd is nice to say the
least.

As well as those healing talents I also like my soloing talents,
particularly surge of light - it's kinda nice being able to chuck an
instant smite out in the middle of a pvp fight! Holy nova also is great if
situational (byebye snakes! Oh, hello rogue... thought you could sneak up
near me?), and I assume there wouldn't be room for either of those in a
disc heavy build.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 70)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60)
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT), Dynafrack <Dynafrack RemoveThis @gmail.com>
wrote:

>I you're a healing priest in arena and you don't spec Disc you fail.
>Simple.

Thanks for reinforcing my opinion that it's pointless to try and discuss
anything here. I thought this place was better than the official forums,
evidently I was mistaken.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 70)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60)
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

> Fair enough, but it's what I'm aiming to do, simply because I like pve too
> much to ever spec completely away from it.

That's okay, I'm not arguing against you speccing the way you want. The only
other alternative is respeccing for pve and pvp. But that gets expensive and
tedious so there is really no other option.

> Well I can't see power infusion or pain suppression being that useful, I
> can still dispel fine (and have enough regen to be able to afford to do
> so), can still manaburn... what exactly am I lacking?

If you can't see how power infusion or pain suppression could be useful, I'm
not sure if there's anything I could point out that you would agree with.
Did you notice pain suppression also offers 65% dispel resist on the target?
It protects more than just health, it also protects against removal of
shield, ice-block.. any dispellable buff. Power infusion is great for team
nuking or simply for mana draining the oppositions main healer. Not sure how
you can not see how these could be useful in pvp.

> Different things work for different people then. Shadow truly sucks for
> levelling in my experience, absolutely no way I'd ever spec that way again
> unless only grouping and in very good gear, but I guess other folk prefer
> different things.

agreed.

> Spirit of redemption= 5% spirit, benefits a few different things, and 15
> sec of uninterrupted manafree healing on death. Priceless in pvp if you
> get
> focussed, which is usually what happens in arenas. Having time to get
> renew/PoM up and cast some nice big heals before finally dying often makes
> a big difference.

SoR is an okay talent, it may even save a game (if you die when it's close).
Not quite as good as actually surviving the attack though Yes, the priest
will get focused in arena. Which is where pain suppression becomes
invaluable. I would rather have PS than this though.

Being able to survive the focus, is the reason players choose disc instead
of holy for pvp.

With pain suppression, focused will and martyrdom. You already become a
tough character to bring down and you can still heal yourself and your
partner.

I was going to go through each talent you mentioned, but I'm getting tired
now. I am not trying to convince you to respec, I'm just trying to point out
why disc is better than holy for pvp healing, but you already stated you
don't care so I'm kinda wasting my time.

I do believe you should spec whatever you want to spec, it's your time
you're playing with. But just because you choose that, you shouldn't try to
convince everyone another (tried and tested) spec is poor in comparison.
It's obviously untrue, otherwise there wouldn't be so many speccing it. You
may not like it, but that doesn't mean yours is better (for you, maybe, but
not for the majority).

> As well as those healing talents I also like my soloing talents,
> particularly surge of light - it's kinda nice being able to chuck an
> instant smite out in the middle of a pvp fight! Holy nova also is great if
> situational (byebye snakes! Oh, hello rogue... thought you could sneak up
> near me?), and I assume there wouldn't be room for either of those in a
> disc heavy build.

That's fine.

Surge of light? Nope, not in a disc build. But holy nova? Certainly. My own
disc priest has holy nova just to help find those pesky rogues ;o 42/19/0
lets you spec down to max out improved healing.

Any holy priest will get owned when they meet a decent disc priest in pvp
though (note, I said "decent") :s But I guess arena is only a fun side
thing, so that's okay!

ave
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:37:52 +0100, "ave" <ave.DeleteThis@nomailplease.com> wrote:

>> Fair enough, but it's what I'm aiming to do, simply because I like pve too
>> much to ever spec completely away from it.
>
>That's okay, I'm not arguing against you speccing the way you want. The only
>other alternative is respeccing for pve and pvp. But that gets expensive and
>tedious so there is really no other option.

Yup, it's why I'm trying to figure out the best compromise build I can. I'd
hope I'm at least right in thinking 20/41/0 is better for pvp than 23/38/0
or 23/33/5? I could respec a lot, but given that disc doesn't even interest
me then I'd really rather not

>> Well I can't see power infusion or pain suppression being that useful, I
>> can still dispel fine (and have enough regen to be able to afford to do
>> so), can still manaburn... what exactly am I lacking?
>
>If you can't see how power infusion or pain suppression could be useful, I'm
>not sure if there's anything I could point out that you would agree with.
>Did you notice pain suppression also offers 65% dispel resist on the target?
>It protects more than just health, it also protects against removal of
>shield, ice-block.. any dispellable buff. Power infusion is great for team
>nuking or simply for mana draining the oppositions main healer. Not sure how
>you can not see how these could be useful in pvp.

Only castable on one person, with a cooldown... sure, they're useful, but
so limited as to not be worth it, surely? I've never had them, so this is
just looking at them from the outside, but I find it hard to imagine them
being *that* good. Consider that power infusion lasts 15 sec... one rogue =
one wasted cd, between blind, kick and stun, chances are you casted exactly
nothing with any cast time during that 15 sec. Can see the value of dispel
resist on pain suppression but again, doesn't last long enough, too long
cd... it just doesn't seem that useful to me. Maybe I'm missing something.

>> Spirit of redemption= 5% spirit, benefits a few different things, and 15
>> sec of uninterrupted manafree healing on death. Priceless in pvp if you
>> get
>> focussed, which is usually what happens in arenas. Having time to get
>> renew/PoM up and cast some nice big heals before finally dying often makes
>> a big difference.
>
>SoR is an okay talent, it may even save a game (if you die when it's close).
>Not quite as good as actually surviving the attack though Yes, the priest
>will get focused in arena. Which is where pain suppression becomes
>invaluable. I would rather have PS than this though.

Hmm, ok. But PS is only available for 8 sec in every 2 mins... so chances
are you're dead after it runs out, having not been able to cast much anyway
(seeing it doesn't include stun/pushback/interrupt resist), and now not
having the 15 sec godmode either

>Being able to survive the focus, is the reason players choose disc instead
>of holy for pvp.
>
>With pain suppression, focused will and martyrdom. You already become a
>tough character to bring down and you can still heal yourself and your
>partner.

True, but then martydom I already have, and in holy you can get blessed
recory and blessed resilience, which I think would equal focussed will in
survivability stakes. Leaving the difference being PS vs CoH, and now my
gear is good enough that I survive the first stun or two, I'd take an
instant cast heal that also heals my nearby group. I've never tried either
in pvp yet, so may be thinking of it in entirely the wrong way, but it's
just how it appears to me.

>I was going to go through each talent you mentioned, but I'm getting tired
>now. I am not trying to convince you to respec, I'm just trying to point out
>why disc is better than holy for pvp healing, but you already stated you
>don't care so I'm kinda wasting my time.
>
>I do believe you should spec whatever you want to spec, it's your time
>you're playing with. But just because you choose that, you shouldn't try to
>convince everyone another (tried and tested) spec is poor in comparison.
>It's obviously untrue, otherwise there wouldn't be so many speccing it. You
>may not like it, but that doesn't mean yours is better (for you, maybe, but
>not for the majority).

Sorry, I get a bit too stubborn with my opinions at times! I'm really not
at all convinced as to exactly *how* disc is better though; there's just no
real evidence in its favour that I've seen yet, but in the end it doesn't
matter that much; even if it was clearly better I'd still stick with what I
like

>Any holy priest will get owned when they meet a decent disc priest in pvp
>though (note, I said "decent") :s But I guess arena is only a fun side
>thing, so that's okay!

True, I've been owned by disc priests before now, but then I suspect that's
also down to my lack of skill and gear. Looking over the talents I find it
hard to see why a skilled holy priest would not do well against a skilled
disc priest - the disc priest would probably put out more damage, simply
because the holy priest will run out of talent points, but in a 2v2 the
holy priest *should* be able to keep their partner alive better so they can
put out the damage. At least that's how it looks to me from looking at the
talent descriptions, practical experience doesn't always match up to theory
though, I'll admit!
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 70)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60)
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:45:01 -0700 (PDT), Babe Bridou
<babebridou.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 28 avr, 17:23, Catriona R <catrionarNOS....RemoveThis@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>> That's a point I'd love to reach - what kind of stats do you have to manage
>> that? I can grind mob after mob with no downtime, but aoe doesn't work so
>> well for me, get oom before everything's dead and then I have a problem
>> 870 spelldmg, 18% crit, and two +spelldmg proc trinkets, which combined
>> with spirit tap means I'm usually on more like 1k spelldmg, so long as I
>> killed something in the last 15 seconds.
>
>http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sunstrider&n=Esa
>(just ignore the build, it's a tweak tentative, but it doesn't work as
>well as 23+/28+/5+)
>
>Your gear is better than mine for pure damage, but then again, what
>would you expect, I'm too casual

Hmm, some interesting stuff there, surprised you're using a few healing
items, as I think you'd gain more damage from other choices, although I can
see they're much better for spirit Also surprised you haven't gone for
crit so much; I aim for 20% for surge of light purposes, although
admittedly with aoeing it'll proc way more often!

>What kind of spirit do you have? I think it's the key. A large part of
>my stats are actually hidden

Not so high as yours

http://ctprofiles.net/72391 gives the items I use solo; I'm usually logged
out in any one of 3 outfits so linking my armory won't guarantee I'm
wearing my soloing gear

>Between my bangle activate ("Endless Blessings", 2mins cooldown) &
>masquerade gown procs ("Love Struck", 40 sec cooldown) with spirit tap
>up, I'm somewhere between 700 (worst case, both bangle & gown on
>cooldown) and ~1200 spirit (best case, both bangle & gown up), with a
>mana regen inside the FSR of 80-95% depending on the passive bangle
>proc ("meditation"). That's a shitload of mana, and that's a nice
>spellpower bonus from spirit tap ranging anywhere from +127 to +420.

I tried the bangle but felt it didn't really gain me enough, probably
because my spirit isn't all that high (and this was also before 2.4) - the
regen gain wasn't very noticeable and the spirit proc didn't give me much
spelldmg gain compared to the passive +crit and the proc/use spelldmg gains
of the 2 trinkets I'm now using. Possibly if I get my spirit higher it'll
be better, but the hard part is finding spirit gear with spelldamage and
crit on it!

The gown is a good idea however, may well look at that one if I'm lucky
enough to have it drop anytime (most annoying the guild I've run kara with
a couple of times recently got R+J on Thursday but couldn't get them down
due to zero interrupters in the group... they were going to try again last
night when I was out, bah!) Only drops 20 passive +dmg on my current one,
although losing all that hit rating will hurt; currently I'm hitcapped vs
lvl 71 which is great, covers pretty much anything I'm likely to fight in
normal soloing

>The tricky part for AOE is getting the first kill without dying, I
>generally don't find enough mobs to AOE, so when I do that, I run in
>for initial aggro, spam shadow word pain all around, then cast the
>shadowfiend (we don't want him to aggro all the mobs, remember holy
>nova has no threat, one is enough for prayer of mending bouncing),
>then inner focus and spam holy nova, firing surge of light on the
>fiend's target as soon as it procs. The fiend's target dies first, and
>I'm generally at 75% mana when that happens, with a very decent chance
>for having both bangle and gown up at the time. Mana regen goes
>through the roof and stays there, holy nova keeps me alive and
>finishes all the mobs.
>
>The great part is that when you AOE, each target counts as a "spell
>cast", so Love Struck, Meditation or Focus buffs are pretty much
>guaranteed to proc within the first two novae, so my Spirit tap is
>pretty much always at full potential. TONS of mana, TONS of healing,
>TONS of damage.

Aha... I see how that works now! Could be interesting to try out, albeit I
suspect I'll die a lot if I give it a go! Or not if I take it carefully,
can manage 3-4 mobs normally without aoe anyway, if I don't burn my mana
too much. I never thought of using the fiend for PoM spam, very nice idea!

>I can't go much higher than 6 mobs though, as I start getting
>survivability issues sooner or later - unlike a mage, I don't kite
>mobs, unlike warriors/paladins, I don't tank them. It's very similar
>to a lock's seed of corruption. I could try to respec for power
>infusion to reach a couple more mobs. 20% faster damage, 20% faster
>healing and 20% cheaper spells at the same time probably means a lot
>more than an additional mob in those Holy Nova sequences.
>
>My next upgrade will come when I finally reach exalted with the Aldor,
>a nice +120 spellpower can't hurt much

Ooh, that from the necklace? I'm Scryers so just get a random arcane
bolt, pretty nice for damage on single mobs, but not so handy for aoeing.
Got to say I love those necklaces though; even with fairly high +heal in
healing gear mine does about 3% of my healing done in Kara, much more than
I expected, love how it procs off renew as well, it's fun seeing SCT
randomly tell me I healed someone I hadn't been targetting for some seconds

--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Eilnich - Blood Elf Warlock (lvl 70)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 60)
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

In article <67lnu2F2oudhrU1 DeleteThis @mid.individual.net>,
Catriona R <catrionarNOSPAM DeleteThis @totalise.co.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:58:50 +0100, "ave" <ave DeleteThis @nomailplease.com> wrote:
>
> >> Fair enough but there's nothing in disc that seems to
> >> make much difference to that.
> >
> >There is power infusion and pain suppression which are 100 times better than
> >circle of healing (for pvp). Yes, these don't inherently reduce push-back,
> >but they make you last longer or cast faster giving you much more chance to
> >fire off those heals.
>
> Do they really help? The descriptions look utterly underwhelming and
> frankly useless. Circle of healing is an instant cast heal... blatantly
> obvious where that's useful, as it can't be interrupted and can be cast
> while moving. In any case I have neither option currently, but CoH looks a
> much more suitable improvement to me for my way of playing.
>
> >Combined with focused power, mental agility, absolution and improved mana
> >burn a disc priest is a powerful offensive healer with a huge amount of
> >utility. A holy priest can just about only heal, they may spec holy + disc
> >upto imp mana burn but still wouldn't be as effective as a proper disc
> >priest (42/19/0 or similar).
>
> Maybe. I'm a healer though, and a healer heals so... holy is the way to go
> for me. Disc just does not look appealing or good for a healer.

I was nearly pure Holy for a long while to level via instances from the
30's up to 60. It's great for that, but when I wandered into the
battlegrounds to try my luck it was horrible. You can fear, shield, try
to heal, etc, but the average rogue will murder your Holy Priest inside
of 10 seconds and you are *always* their first target no matter how hard
you try to hide in the shrubs.

Eventually I read somewhere about the pvp Disc build and thought "Hm,
that's for me!" It's different for sure: mitigation is king and mana
efficiency/longevity is kaput. But now I can deal with those rogues,
and same-level ones usually die. PvP is actually fun. I'm 45/7/0 at
lvl 61 and will flesh out Holy as I go. Even the level 70 rogues in AV
have trouble with me although I'll eventually lose. At least I don't
get 3-shotted, more like 20-shotted.

When raid-healing starts at 70 of course I'll trim everything Disc
beyond the 23 points (up to Imp Divine Spirit), but until then it seems
like a heavy Disc build is fine for both the 5-mans and pissing off
hordies.
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

On 28 Apr, 23:22, Babe Bridou <babebri....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Now say your spirit regen grants you 30mp5 while casting (meditation
> talent) and 100mp5 while not casting. What spirit tap does is double
> your spirit (thus your spirit regen) to 60mp5 while casting and 200mp5
> while not casting. And then, grant you a bonus of 50% of your
> (doubled) spirit regen while casting. So your total regen becomes,
> under spirit tap:
> 160mp5 while casting,
> 200mp5 while not casting.
> So over 15 seconds, spirit tap nets you 390 mana if you keep casting
> spells, and only 300 mana if you stop casting spells.

Are you sure that's how it works? The text doesn't say that it gives
a bonus of 50% of your spirit regen whilst casting - it says "your
Mana will regenerate at a 50% rate whilst casting". That would imply
that it would replace Meditation, not stack with it. This would give
a regeneration of 100mp5 and 200mp5 as per the not-casting scenario.

I might download a mana regen watcher to see (actually, if I remember
correctly, the character screen gives this figure and adjusts for
drinking so should also adjust for spirit tap)

steve.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

On 29 avr, 10:16, "steve.kaye" <nos....DeleteThis@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28 Apr, 23:22, Babe Bridou <babebri....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Now say your spirit regen grants you 30mp5 while casting (meditation
> > talent) and 100mp5 while not casting. What spirit tap does is double
> > your spirit (thus your spirit regen) to 60mp5 while casting and 200mp5
> > while not casting. And then, grant you a bonus of 50% of your
> > (doubled) spirit regen while casting. So your total regen becomes,
> > under spirit tap:
> > 160mp5 while casting,
> > 200mp5 while not casting.
> > So over 15 seconds, spirit tap nets you 390 mana if you keep casting
> > spells, and only 300 mana if you stop casting spells.
>
> Are you sure that's how it works? The text doesn't say that it gives
> a bonus of 50% of your spirit regen whilst casting - it says "your
> Mana will regenerate at a 50% rate whilst casting". That would imply
> that it would replace Meditation, not stack with it. This would give
> a regeneration of 100mp5 and 200mp5 as per the not-casting scenario.
>
> I might download a mana regen watcher to see (actually, if I remember
> correctly, the character screen gives this figure and adjusts for
> drinking so should also adjust for spirit tap)

When the bangle of endless blessing procs and I'm under spirit tap, my
regen increases. Also, when spirit tap is up (and nothing else), my
smites' net cost is about 150 mana per cast. That means that my regen
inside the FSR is at least 500mp5 (200/smite*2.5). Had it been a
straight 50%, my regen outside of the FSR would be above 1000mp5 with
less than 800 spirit, which just doesn't happen.
As you can see, I didn't exactly test it out thoroughly with extensive
data, but it appears highly likely from my experience that spirit tap
works the way I described: a straight "+50% meditation" buff.

From what I understand the Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon proc works
differently: it essentially removes the five seconds rule, so it
doesn't stack with meditation, spirit tap, or the bangle proc and
replaces it with a straight 100%. Unfortunately I've been missing the
Ace of Beast for a couple years now, and I doubt I'll ever get to test
that one live
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

Dynafrack <Dynafrack DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 28, 12:10 pm, Catriona R <catrionarNOS... DeleteThis @totalise.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT), Dynafrack <Dynafr... DeleteThis @gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >I you're a healing priest in arena and you don't spec Disc you fail.
> > >Simple.
> >
> > Thanks for reinforcing my opinion that it's pointless to try and discuss
> > anything here. I thought this place was better than the official forums,
> > evidently I was mistaken.
>
> Unfortunately in this case there's no room for discussion. You do it
> or fail. That's it.

There is always room for discussion. But some people seem to be incapable
of it.

Not that I'm surprised - the full-quoting/no-sig-trimming post re-inforces
my preconceptions of you from your previous post.

I know who failed in this conversation, and it's not Catriona.

--
Zil, Level 70 NE Priest, Aman Shan're, Stormrage Europe
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence... 

On 29 Apr, 10:27, Babe Bridou <babebri... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 29 avr, 10:16, "steve.kaye" <nos... DeleteThis @giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 28 Apr, 23:22, Babe Bridou <babebri... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Now say your spirit regen grants you 30mp5 while casting (meditation
> > > talent) and 100mp5 while not casting. What spirit tap does is double
> > > your spirit (thus your spirit regen) to 60mp5 while casting and 200mp5
> > > while not casting. And then, grant you a bonus of 50% of your
> > > (doubled) spirit regen while casting. So your total regen becomes,
> > > under spirit tap:
> > > 160mp5 while casting,
> > > 200mp5 while not casting.
> > > So over 15 seconds, spirit tap nets you 390 mana if you keep casting
> > > spells, and only 300 mana if you stop casting spells.
>
> > Are you sure that's how it works?  The text doesn't say that it gives
> > a bonus of 50% of your spirit regen whilst casting - it says "your
> > Mana will regenerate at a 50% rate whilst casting".  That would imply
> > that it would replace Meditation, not stack with it.  This would give
> > a regeneration of 100mp5 and 200mp5 as per the not-casting scenario.
>
> > I might download a mana regen watcher to see  (actually, if I remember
> > correctly, the character screen gives this figure and adjusts for
> > drinking so should also adjust for spirit tap)
>
> When the bangle of endless blessing procs and I'm under spirit tap, my
> regen increases. Also, when spirit tap is up (and nothing else), my
> smites' net cost is about 150 mana per cast. That means that my regen
> inside the FSR is at least 500mp5 (200/smite*2.5). Had it been a
> straight 50%, my regen outside of the FSR would be above 1000mp5 with
> less than 800 spirit, which just doesn't happen.
> As you can see, I didn't exactly test it out thoroughly with extensive
> data, but it appears highly likely from my experience that spirit tap
> works the way I described: a straight "+50% meditation" buff.

I just tested this and you are right - you get 80% of mana
regeneration when spirit tap is up with meditation.

My in combat / out of combat mana regen in DPS gear is a feeble
211/65. When spirit tap activated it went to 416/334 and 334 is about
80% of 416 not the 50% that I expected.

steve.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: Resillence...