Raging Cleric?

On Sep 23, 1:52 pm, Werebat <ranpoir....DeleteThis@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Is anyone aware of a feat, PrC, etc. that will let you cast while raging?
> This guy wants to basically make a Barb1/ClericX build so he plans to cast
> a lot of the time.
>
> Would a feat like "Righteous Fury" that lets a character cast and maybe
> make casting-related concentration checks while raging be overpowered?
>
> - Ron ^*^


Does Practiced Caster work for divine classes? If so, the Bar2/ClericX
model might work better, rage another round and all.

Dragonkat
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Werebat wrote:
> One of the players IMC wants to play a half-orc barbarian/cleric of Kalok
> Shash (Eberron Orc version of the Silver Flame).
>
> The problem is that you can't cast while raging. Or can you?
>
> Is anyone aware of a feat, PrC, etc. that will let you cast while raging?

Rage mage, obviously, but that's just for arcanists.

> This guy wants to basically make a Barb1/ClericX build so he plans to cast
> a lot of the time.

Why does he need to cast while in rage? Cast, rage, go to town. That said...

> Would a feat like "Righteous Fury" that lets a character cast and maybe
> make casting-related concentration checks while raging be overpowered?

.... I don't think this would be a priori overpowered.

If just "you can cast while raging" is too much, you could do all sorts
of stuff to balance it: require more feats, impose a spell failure
chance, have casting eat up an extra round of the rage's duration...


--
Jasin
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Werebat <ranpoirier.TakeThisOut@cox.net> wrote:
> One of the players IMC wants to play a half-orc barbarian/cleric of Kalok
> Shash (Eberron Orc version of the Silver Flame).
>
> The problem is that you can't cast while raging. Or can you?
>
> Is anyone aware of a feat, PrC, etc. that will let you cast while raging?
> This guy wants to basically make a Barb1/ClericX build so he plans to cast
> a lot of the time.
>
> Would a feat like "Righteous Fury" that lets a character cast and maybe
> make casting-related concentration checks while raging be overpowered?

WTF? I thought I'd put this in my wiki already, but I guess not.

http://www.kjd-imc.org/rpg/reference/feat/rage.html
http://www.kjd-imc.org/rpg/reference/feat/rage.html#feat.rage-casting

Rage Casting
Prereqs: Skill Focus (Concentration), base Will +4, Wis +3, ability to
rage[1]
Benefit: You can cast spells while raging.
Normal: You cannot cast spells while raging.

[1] IMC a feat, of course. The image of a raging cleric really appeals
to me, it makes sense for some cultures and religions.


ISTR I pinched this from somewhere. Let me check a few of my books to
see if I can turn it up.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "History is made by stupid people
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org "Clever people wouldn't even try
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@gmail.com "If you want a place in the history books
http://www.kjdavies.org/ "Then do something dumb before you die."
-- The Arrogant Worms
 >> Stay informed about: Raging Cleric? 

Peter Knutsen <peter.DeleteThis@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
> Werebat wrote:
>> One of the players IMC wants to play a half-orc barbarian/cleric of Kalok
>> Shash (Eberron Orc version of the Silver Flame).
>>
>> The problem is that you can't cast while raging. Or can you?
>>
>> Is anyone aware of a feat, PrC, etc. that will let you cast while raging?
>> This guy wants to basically make a Barb1/ClericX build so he plans to cast
>> a lot of the time.
>>
>> Would a feat like "Righteous Fury" that lets a character cast and maybe
>> make casting-related concentration checks while raging be overpowered?
>
> If it is, make it 3 Feats. One lets you cast spells of 1st to 3rd level.
> The second lets you cast spells of 4th to 6th level, and the third lets
> you cast spells of 7th to 9th level.

Possibly, but do remember that clerics don't get a lot of feats. He's
already down one caster level, losing his 3rd-level, 6th-level, and
12th-level feats to this is pretty expensive.

Compare to Natural Spell, where a druid in animal form (i.e. 'receiving
more benefit than a rage gives') gets to cast while wildshaped.

A single feat should be sufficient.

> Another division would be 1st to 4th level, 5th to 7th level, and 8th to
> 9th level, but never the highest level of spell that you can cast. Thus
> a level X Barbarian/level 7 Cleric with the first Feat would be able to
> cast spells of level 1 to 3 while raging. 4th level spells he'd only be
> able to cast while clear-headed. To make the last Feat work, you'd have
> to rule that once a Priest reaches level 19, he becomes able to cast 9th
> level spells while raging, since if 10th level spells existed that'd be
> the level where he got access to them.

This is getting complicated, IMO. 1-3, 4-6, 7-9, if you *must* have
divisions.

> A third take is to have just one Feat, but it only lets the Cleric cast
> prepared Domain spells. This would encourage the Cleric/Barbarian to
> select appropriate Domains such as Madness, Fury, Rage, War and similar.

Why? He could (rules-legitimately) just as readily cast spells of love,
healing, flowers and fluffy animals.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "History is made by stupid people
keith.davies.DeleteThis@kjdavies.org "Clever people wouldn't even try
keith.davies.DeleteThis@gmail.com "If you want a place in the history books
http://www.kjdavies.org/ "Then do something dumb before you die."
-- The Arrogant Worms
 >> Stay informed about: Raging Cleric? 

Dragonkat <dragonkat2flame.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sep 23, 1:52 pm, Werebat <ranpoir....DeleteThis@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> Is anyone aware of a feat, PrC, etc. that will let you cast while raging?
>> This guy wants to basically make a Barb1/ClericX build so he plans to cast
>> a lot of the time.
>>
>> Would a feat like "Righteous Fury" that lets a character cast and maybe
>> make casting-related concentration checks while raging be overpowered?
>
>
> Does Practiced Caster work for divine classes? If so, the Bar2/ClericX
> model might work better, rage another round and all.

Why would he rage another round? Duration == 3 + mCon rounds, level is
irrelevant. Uncanny dodge might be nice to have, mind.

And yes, Practiced Caster does work for divine classes. It doesn't give
access to higher-level spells, though. I don't think Uncanny Dodge is
worth losing that second level of spellcasting ability, even if you can
spend a feat (limited resource here) to be able to cast spells as well.
You're still down a spell level.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "History is made by stupid people
keith.davies.DeleteThis@kjdavies.org "Clever people wouldn't even try
keith.davies.DeleteThis@gmail.com "If you want a place in the history books
http://www.kjdavies.org/ "Then do something dumb before you die."
-- The Arrogant Worms
 >> Stay informed about: Raging Cleric? 

Werebat wrote:
> One of the players IMC wants to play a half-orc barbarian/cleric of
> Kalok Shash (Eberron Orc version of the Silver Flame).
>
> The problem is that you can't cast while raging. Or can you?
>
> Is anyone aware of a feat, PrC, etc. that will let you cast while
> raging? This guy wants to basically make a Barb1/ClericX build so he
> plans to cast a lot of the time.
>
> Would a feat like "Righteous Fury" that lets a character cast and
> maybe make casting-related concentration checks while raging be
> overpowered?

IMHO, I believe that a simple feat (without any limitations) that allows
casting cleric spells while raging is highly unlikely to cause any serious
imbalances. You don't rage for that long, and... this is critical...
casting a spell wastes that valuable time. The only situation that this is
likely to come up is "my rage is about to expire, and I'll die without a
cure spell... cure x wounds". I wouldn't penalize someone for that,
personally.

--
Reginald Blue
"I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my
telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my
telephone."
- Bjarne Stroustrup (originator of C++) [quoted at the 2003
International Conference on Intelligent User Interfaces]
 >> Stay informed about: Raging Cleric? 

On Sep 24, 11:40 am, Keith Davies <keith.dav....TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org> wrote:
> Werebat <ranpoir....TakeThisOut@cox.net> wrote:
> > One of the players IMC wants to play a half-orc barbarian/cleric of Kalok
> > Shash (Eberron Orc version of the Silver Flame).
>
> > The problem is that you can't cast while raging. Or can you?
>
> > Is anyone aware of a feat, PrC, etc. that will let you cast while raging?
> > This guy wants to basically make a Barb1/ClericX build so he plans to cast
> > a lot of the time.
>
> > Would a feat like "Righteous Fury" that lets a character cast and maybe
> > make casting-related concentration checks while raging be overpowered?
>
> WTF? I thought I'd put this in my wiki already, but I guess not.
>
> http://www.kjd-imc.org/rpg/reference/feat/rage.htmlhttp://www.kjd-imc..../rpg/re
>
> Rage Casting
> Prereqs: Skill Focus (Concentration), base Will +4, Wis +3, ability to
> rage[1]
> Benefit: You can cast spells while raging.
> Normal: You cannot cast spells while raging.
>
> [1] IMC a feat, of course. The image of a raging cleric really appeals
> to me, it makes sense for some cultures and religions.
>
> ISTR I pinched this from somewhere. Let me check a few of my books to
> see if I can turn it up.
>
> Keith

In my campaign, we had a similar Feat allowing a Concentration check
at DC 20+ spell level to cast while Raging, and that seems to have
worked well.
 >> Stay informed about: Raging Cleric? 

On Sep 24, 2:53 pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav....DeleteThis@kjdavies.org> wrote:
> Dragonkat <dragonkat2fl....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Does Practiced Caster work for divine classes? If so, the Bar2/ClericX
> > model might work better, rage another round and all.
>
> Why would he rage another round? Duration == 3 + mCon rounds, level is
> irrelevant. Uncanny dodge might be nice to have, mind.
>
> And yes, Practiced Caster does work for divine classes. It doesn't give
> access to higher-level spells, though. I don't think Uncanny Dodge is
> worth losing that second level of spellcasting ability, even if you can
> spend a feat (limited resource here) to be able to cast spells as well.
> You're still down a spell level.
>

Ok, so rage is 3 + mCon rounds. thank you.
Dragonkat
 >> Stay informed about: Raging Cleric? 

On Sep 24, 3:50 pm, "elri...@gmail.com" <elri....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 24, 11:40 am, Keith Davies <keith.dav....TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Werebat <ranpoir....TakeThisOut@cox.net> wrote:
> > > One of the players IMC wants to play a half-orc barbarian/cleric of Kalok
> > > Shash (Eberron Orc version of the Silver Flame).
>
> > > The problem is that you can't cast while raging. Or can you?
>
> > > Is anyone aware of a feat, PrC, etc. that will let you cast while raging?
> > > This guy wants to basically make a Barb1/ClericX build so he plans to cast
> > > a lot of the time.
>
> > > Would a feat like "Righteous Fury" that lets a character cast and maybe
> > > make casting-related concentration checks while raging be overpowered?
>
> > WTF? I thought I'd put this in my wiki already, but I guess not.
>
> >http://www.kjd-imc.org/rpg/reference/feat/rage.htmlhttp://www.kjd-imc...
>
> > Rage Casting
> > Prereqs: Skill Focus (Concentration), base Will +4, Wis +3, ability to
> > rage[1]
> > Benefit: You can cast spells while raging.
> > Normal: You cannot cast spells while raging.
>
> > [1] IMC a feat, of course. The image of a raging cleric really appeals
> > to me, it makes sense for some cultures and religions.
>
> > ISTR I pinched this from somewhere. Let me check a few of my books to
> > see if I can turn it up.
>
> > Keith
>
> In my campaign, we had a similar Feat allowing a Concentration check
> at DC 20+ spell level to cast while Raging, and that seems to have
> worked well.

IMAO concentration is the wrong skill. You very specifically CAN'T use
the concentration skill while raging, and this is separate from the
prohibition on spellcasting.

Not being able to use Concentration while raging goes a long way
toward ballancing this since you can't use concentration to avoid AoO
while casting.

Presumably a Raging spellcaster is somehow letting his rage power the
spellcast or just letting fly with the spell as part of his rage, not
overcoming the rage via concentration (if overcoming the rage is
desired he can end rage at any time after all).

DougL
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"Reginald Blue" <Reginald_Blue DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in
news:fd9gc9$cq4$1@USTR-NEWS.TR.UNISYS.COM:

> Werebat wrote:
>> One of the players IMC wants to play a half-orc barbarian/cleric of
>> Kalok Shash (Eberron Orc version of the Silver Flame).
>>
>> The problem is that you can't cast while raging. Or can you?
>>
>> Is anyone aware of a feat, PrC, etc. that will let you cast while
>> raging? This guy wants to basically make a Barb1/ClericX build so he
>> plans to cast a lot of the time.
>>
>> Would a feat like "Righteous Fury" that lets a character cast and
>> maybe make casting-related concentration checks while raging be
>> overpowered?
>
> IMHO, I believe that a simple feat (without any limitations) that
> allows casting cleric spells while raging is highly unlikely to cause
> any serious imbalances. You don't rage for that long, and... this is
> critical... casting a spell wastes that valuable time. The only
> situation that this is likely to come up is "my rage is about to
> expire, and I'll die without a cure spell... cure x wounds". I
> wouldn't penalize someone for that, personally.

Good point about the wasted round every time you cast, and this was my
thinking as well. I think I'll allow a simple one-feat buy for "cast
while raging". I don't see it as being something everyone would feel
obligated to take if allowed.

- Ron ^*^
 >> Stay informed about: Raging Cleric? 

DougL <lampert.doug.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 24, 3:50 pm, "elri...@gmail.com" <elri....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 24, 11:40 am, Keith Davies <keith.dav....TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Rage Casting
>> > Prereqs: Skill Focus (Concentration), base Will +4, Wis +3,
>> > ability to rage[1]
>> > Benefit: You can cast spells while raging.
>> > Normal: You cannot cast spells while raging.
>>
>> > [1] IMC a feat, of course. The image of a raging cleric really
>> > appeals to me, it makes sense for some cultures and religions.
>>
>> > ISTR I pinched this from somewhere. Let me check a few of my books
>> > to see if I can turn it up.

I didn't, btw. IIRC (I didn't sleep much last night) I did find one
that allows a skill check (Concentration? Which as DougL says is dumb
because you can't make Concentration checks while raging) to let you get
a spell off while raging.

>> In my campaign, we had a similar Feat allowing a Concentration check
>> at DC 20+ spell level to cast while Raging, and that seems to have
>> worked well.
>
> IMAO concentration is the wrong skill. You very specifically CAN'T use
> the concentration skill while raging, and this is separate from the
> prohibition on spellcasting.
>
> Not being able to use Concentration while raging goes a long way
> toward ballancing this since you can't use concentration to avoid AoO
> while casting.

Both good points.

> Presumably a Raging spellcaster is somehow letting his rage power the
> spellcast or just letting fly with the spell as part of his rage, not
> overcoming the rage via concentration (if overcoming the rage is
> desired he can end rage at any time after all).

Something like that. Rage and spellcasting don't really stack well.
The extra Con will help keep you alive, for the hit points, but it's not
like it lets you cast the spells better.

Hmm. Which suggests 'Improved Rage Casting', where the save DC (or
perhaps caster level, especially for SR checks?) goes up while raging?


Also, I think if you must limit the spells cast while raging, being able
to only cast destructive spells would be appropriate.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "History is made by stupid people
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org "Clever people wouldn't even try
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@gmail.com "If you want a place in the history books
http://www.kjdavies.org/ "Then do something dumb before you die."
-- The Arrogant Worms
 >> Stay informed about: Raging Cleric? 

Werebat <ranpoirier.RemoveThis@cox.net> wrote:
> "Reginald Blue" <Reginald_Blue.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:fd9gc9$cq4$1@USTR-NEWS.TR.UNISYS.COM:
>
>> Werebat wrote:
>>> One of the players IMC wants to play a half-orc barbarian/cleric of
>>> Kalok Shash (Eberron Orc version of the Silver Flame).
>>>
>>> The problem is that you can't cast while raging. Or can you?
>>>
>>> Is anyone aware of a feat, PrC, etc. that will let you cast while
>>> raging? This guy wants to basically make a Barb1/ClericX build so he
>>> plans to cast a lot of the time.
>>>
>>> Would a feat like "Righteous Fury" that lets a character cast and
>>> maybe make casting-related concentration checks while raging be
>>> overpowered?
>>
>> IMHO, I believe that a simple feat (without any limitations) that
>> allows casting cleric spells while raging is highly unlikely to cause
>> any serious imbalances. You don't rage for that long, and... this is
>> critical... casting a spell wastes that valuable time. The only
>> situation that this is likely to come up is "my rage is about to
>> expire, and I'll die without a cure spell... cure x wounds". I
>> wouldn't penalize someone for that, personally.
>
> Good point about the wasted round every time you cast, and this was my
> thinking as well. I think I'll allow a simple one-feat buy for "cast
> while raging". I don't see it as being something everyone would feel
> obligated to take if allowed.

As mentioned, I've got Rage Casting IMC. I haven't had a character come
up yet where it would be used, but I think from a balance perspective
Reginald's got it about right.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "History is made by stupid people
keith.davies.RemoveThis@kjdavies.org "Clever people wouldn't even try
keith.davies.RemoveThis@gmail.com "If you want a place in the history books
http://www.kjdavies.org/ "Then do something dumb before you die."
-- The Arrogant Worms
 >> Stay informed about: Raging Cleric? 

On Sep 23, 10:52 am, Werebat <ranpoir... DeleteThis @cox.net> wrote:
> One of the players IMC wants to play a half-orc barbarian/cleric of Kalok
> Shash (Eberron Orc version of the Silver Flame).
>
> The problem is that you can't cast while raging. Or can you?
>
> Is anyone aware of a feat, PrC, etc. that will let you cast while raging?
> This guy wants to basically make a Barb1/ClericX build so he plans to cast
> a lot of the time.
>
> Would a feat like "Righteous Fury" that lets a character cast and maybe
> make casting-related concentration checks while raging be overpowered?
>

Why bother? Buff before or at the beginning of combat, rage, lay the
smack down, rage down, heal. No need to cast while raging. Big waste
of a feat.

But if you wanted to I'd make it something like the requirements of
can cast spells of level 1 and can rage (this prevents it from being
taken at 1st level when you can only do one or the other).

- Justisaur
 >> Stay informed about: Raging Cleric?