New To RPG Games

Gerry Quinn wrote:
> In article <1164561780.174228.145910.TakeThisOut@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
> justisaur.TakeThisOut@gmail.com says...

> > Instead of fudging around with all this stuff and making you use
> > 'normal' just so you don't keep hitting your companions and missing the
> > enemy they could have made it so spellcasting was instantaneous so the
> > spell hits where it's targeted at that moment, and just have you sit
> > around 'casting' for the 6 seconds afterward.
>
> Or do as in WoW and have the fireball track the target after it's
> launched. It would have to be given the option of targeting an enemy
> rather than a location, of course.

It will do that o.k. The problem is it takes around 3 seconds to cast
the spell, and being an area spell, if you do that, they will have
engaged you by then and you'll be fireballing your party.

- Justisaur
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

Xocyll wrote:
> Nostromo <nospam.RemoveThis@forme.org> looked up from reading the entrails of the
> porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
>> Thus spake Xocyll <Xocyll.RemoveThis@kingston.net>, Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:26:42 -0500,
>> Anno Domini:
>>
>>> Gabriele Neukam <Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam.RemoveThis@t-online.de> looked up from
>>> reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good,
>>> the signs say:
>>>
>>>> On this special day, Nostromo wrote :
>>>>
>>>>> chainbreaker wrote:
>>>>>> Nostromo wrote:
>>>>>>> The sig cover pretty much all the Gothics (G3 the least of course) -
>>>>>>> you would have to ask Gabe what his exact meaning was.
>>>>>>> And a crpg newbie <> pc noob. Nuff said.
>>>>>> *His*?
>>>>> Oops - pass. I thought he was a she or she was a he & then I got
>>>>> confused...So, Neukem is a girl? Surely not! Didn't we have this whole
>>>>> argument with the German contingent a couple weeks back? Umpire!
>>>> ROFL. Well I dont' talk like a girl, most of the time, yet I am. Else,
>>>> there would be an "e" missing at the end of my first name. I hope your
>>>> world didn't go into shards by now.
>>>>
>>>> Re the Gothic games: I haven't played G3 yet, so I can't say anything
>>>> about that one, but the first two are really of the kind, that wil
>>>> repel people with a low frustration tolerance. Having to reload all the
>>>> time isn't exactly the way console gamers are used to play.
>>> I thought endlessly repeating the actions taken since the last "save
>>> point" was exactly what console gamers are used to.
>>>
>>> It's complained about enough here every time a game gets ported from
>>> console with save points or is developed in parallel and uses save
>>> points.
>> You may have misunderstood X.
>
> Not at all since I was replying to one statement made about console
> gamers.

It was for Gabe's & everyone else's benefit as well. You were responding
in direct reference to Gabe's comments about Gothics & G3, quoted above,
with what sounded to me like a reference to them them being like console
save point games. If you were generalising then you should've been
*clear* about that & not followed on to a paragraph starting with "Re
the Gothic games:", but you're welcome to have your own conversation if
you like & I'll have mine . In any case, I was clarifying in
_general_, so anyone thinking about G3 isn't put off by a potentially
misleading reference. The game has enough other tech issues that the
last thing it needs is to be associated with console games/save points
in a pc rpg newsgroup.

>> Gothics have save anywhere (at least 2 & 3 do)
>> - no save/check points to worry about.
>
> Since I didn't post ANYTHING about the Gothics this is irrelevant.
>
> <snip Fanboyism>

How is the EVE grind-fest coming along btw?
(yes, I saw your other post about still not getting shot at yet - good
for you! They're waiting until it *really* hurts you, you know ;-p)

--
Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

Nostromo <nostromo.RemoveThis@nospam.org> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Xocyll wrote:
>> Nostromo <nospam.RemoveThis@forme.org> looked up from reading the entrails of the
>> porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>>
>>> Thus spake Xocyll <Xocyll.RemoveThis@kingston.net>, Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:26:42 -0500,
>>> Anno Domini:
>>>
>>>> Gabriele Neukam <Gabriele.Spamfighter.Neukam.RemoveThis@t-online.de> looked up from
>>>> reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good,
>>>> the signs say:
>>>>
>>>>> On this special day, Nostromo wrote :
>>>>>
>>>>>> chainbreaker wrote:
>>>>>>> Nostromo wrote:
>>>>>>>> The sig cover pretty much all the Gothics (G3 the least of course) -
>>>>>>>> you would have to ask Gabe what his exact meaning was.
>>>>>>>> And a crpg newbie <> pc noob. Nuff said.
>>>>>>> *His*?
>>>>>> Oops - pass. I thought he was a she or she was a he & then I got
>>>>>> confused...So, Neukem is a girl? Surely not! Didn't we have this whole
>>>>>> argument with the German contingent a couple weeks back? Umpire!
>>>>> ROFL. Well I dont' talk like a girl, most of the time, yet I am. Else,
>>>>> there would be an "e" missing at the end of my first name. I hope your
>>>>> world didn't go into shards by now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Re the Gothic games: I haven't played G3 yet, so I can't say anything
>>>>> about that one, but the first two are really of the kind, that wil
>>>>> repel people with a low frustration tolerance. Having to reload all the
>>>>> time isn't exactly the way console gamers are used to play.
>>>> I thought endlessly repeating the actions taken since the last "save
>>>> point" was exactly what console gamers are used to.
>>>>
>>>> It's complained about enough here every time a game gets ported from
>>>> console with save points or is developed in parallel and uses save
>>>> points.
>>> You may have misunderstood X.
>>
>> Not at all since I was replying to one statement made about console
>> gamers.
>
>It was for Gabe's & everyone else's benefit as well. You were responding
>in direct reference to Gabe's comments about Gothics & G3, quoted above,
>with what sounded to me like a reference to them them being like console
>save point games. If you were generalising then you should've been
>*clear* about that & not followed on to a paragraph starting with "Re
>the Gothic games:", but you're welcome to have your own conversation if
>you like & I'll have mine . In any case, I was clarifying in
>_general_, so anyone thinking about G3 isn't put off by a potentially
>misleading reference. The game has enough other tech issues that the
>last thing it needs is to be associated with console games/save points
>in a pc rpg newsgroup.
>
>>> Gothics have save anywhere (at least 2 & 3 do)
>>> - no save/check points to worry about.
>>
>> Since I didn't post ANYTHING about the Gothics this is irrelevant.
>>
>> <snip Fanboyism>
>
>How is the EVE grind-fest coming along btw?
>(yes, I saw your other post about still not getting shot at yet - good
>for you! They're waiting until it *really* hurts you, you know ;-p)

Still goes well, not grindy at all really.
Log on, do some missions, maybe mine a little mon/fri (or not).

Patching has started now, so next time on new ships, skills, changes to
skills (like leadership) a breaking of the tech 2 stranglehold with
reverse engineering, etc.

Now is the time to have made an R&D character.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

In article <Kr-dncgiq4BEKvXYnZ2dnUVZ_oqdnZ2d RemoveThis @comcast.com>,
noone RemoveThis @nowhere.com says...
> JAB wrote:
> > Well it would be pretty boring if you could please all the people all
> > the time. For me NWN2 is a far better game than Oblivion (not that I
> > don't rate it) mainly as it's a lot more tightly controlled and not
> > some much a do your own thing. Saying that it's seems very difficult
> > to come up with a way of have the "epic" style story line but also a
> > very open ended game. At the start it was great just to wander around
> > the countryside but after a while with nothing in particular to do I
> > thought hand on a sec the real countryside is only 10 mins walk away
> > ...
>
> Well, they tried something approaching "realistic" distances in Daggerfall,
> and for my part of it, they could have kept it. I neither need nor want
> "real" in my games, just a sort of reasonable suspension of disbelief within
> the framework of the represented world.

You had fast travel in Daggerfall too. I liked it, it was nice
sometimes to go wandering into the countryside on your horse. The
outdoor graphics were great for the time.

Morrowind had a good balance too. I think Oblivion is a bit too
'compressed' by the fast-travel system - they should make the next
world a bit subjectively bigger. In Oblivion you don't get worried
because you're too far from civilisation and there are scary monsters
all around.

- Gerry Quinn
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

In article <1164561780.174228.145910 DeleteThis @14g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
justisaur DeleteThis @gmail.com says...

> In PnP when you cast a spell you choose the target at the very end of
> the casting, so you have very precise targeting. It's quite easy to
> target a fireball so it hits most of or all of the enemy and none of
> your companions. You also don't miss the targets you are aiming at so
> you can drop it in the most advanageous spot. In NWN the targeting is
> at the beginning of when you cast the spell, so by the time you finish
> your fireball all the enemy has seen you and started running for you
> and aren't in the area anymore. You can of course learn to lead the
> enemy, but it requires some guess work, and your companions may run up
> into the area of where your fireball is going to land before it
> finishes.
>
> Instead of fudging around with all this stuff and making you use
> 'normal' just so you don't keep hitting your companions and missing the
> enemy they could have made it so spellcasting was instantaneous so the
> spell hits where it's targeted at that moment, and just have you sit
> around 'casting' for the 6 seconds afterward.

Or do as in WoW and have the fireball track the target after it's
launched. It would have to be given the option of targeting an enemy
rather than a location, of course.

- Gerry Quinn
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

Michael Cecil wrote:
> They needed some random encounters during fast travel sort of like in
> Fallout. Heck, some in-jokes would have been good there.

Yeah--or *something*. Either way, things were just, ah . . . sterile--sort
of like some of the real-time flight sim missions I recall trying where you
took off in England to bomb a sub base in Vladivostock (sorry if that's not
the correct spelling) or somesuch.

Heh, I said "missions", but I think once was more than enough.
--
chainbreaker
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

Thus spake "chainbreaker" <noone.DeleteThis@nowhere.com>, Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:45:13
-0500, Anno Domini:

>Michael Cecil wrote:
>> They needed some random encounters during fast travel sort of like in
>> Fallout. Heck, some in-jokes would have been good there.
>
>Yeah--or *something*. Either way, things were just, ah . . . sterile--sort
>of like some of the real-time flight sim missions I recall trying where you
>took off in England to bomb a sub base in Vladivostock (sorry if that's not
>the correct spelling) or somesuch.
>
>Heh, I said "missions", but I think once was more than enough.

</fanboy mode on>

That's where G3 seems so much more realistic & rewarding. You actually have
to find teleporter stones in each city & when you use them they're exactly
that - instant magical travel, not some weird time compression where nothing
ever happens. But you have to get there the hard way first (at least once) &
then find the TP stone, which is not always in an obvious place (some are
easy to miss). So, at least it makes you feel like you've earnt the
privilege, whereas Ob just hands it over on a silver platter from the start,
at least for all the major locations.

</fanboy mode into neutral>

--
"Gothic is nothing for noobs." - Gabriele Neukam 31/10

Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

On Nov 28, 2:12 pm, Nostromo <nos....TakeThisOut@forme.org> wrote:
> That's where G3 seems so much more realistic & rewarding. You actually have
> to find teleporter stones in each city & when you use them they're exactly
> that - instant magical travel, not some weird time compression where nothing
> ever happens. But you have to get there the hard way first (at least once) &
> then find the TP stone, which is not always in an obvious place (some are
> easy to miss). So, at least it makes you feel like you've earnt the
> privilege, whereas Ob just hands it over on a silver platter from the start,
> at least for all the major locations.

So in practice they work exactly the same way with two trivial
differences:

1) In Oblivion the half dozen major cities are already open to you but
you have to get to the other hundreds of places "the hard way first".
2) In Gothic you have to find a teleporter stone before you can
teleport "which is not always in an obvious place (some are easy to
miss)".

I don't see finding some hidden thing as "earning the privilege".
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

In article <1164732069.489724.29370 DeleteThis @l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
justisaur DeleteThis @gmail.com says...
>
> Gerry Quinn wrote:
> > In article <1164561780.174228.145910 DeleteThis @14g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
> > justisaur DeleteThis @gmail.com says...
>
> > > Instead of fudging around with all this stuff and making you use
> > > 'normal' just so you don't keep hitting your companions and missing the
> > > enemy they could have made it so spellcasting was instantaneous so the
> > > spell hits where it's targeted at that moment, and just have you sit
> > > around 'casting' for the 6 seconds afterward.
> >
> > Or do as in WoW and have the fireball track the target after it's
> > launched. It would have to be given the option of targeting an enemy
> > rather than a location, of course.
>
> It will do that o.k. The problem is it takes around 3 seconds to cast
> the spell, and being an area spell, if you do that, they will have
> engaged you by then and you'll be fireballing your party.

OK. Of course WoW deals with this issue in the simplest fashion -
spells affect solely enemies or friends.

So how does PnP deal with the issue? Do monsters just sit and wait
until the fireball hits, or does the GM fudge it by saying "You blast
the orcs for 16. Smoking and screaming, they leap the last five yards
of floor and are on you..."

- Gerry Quinn
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

Gerry Quinn wrote:
> In article <1164732069.489724.29370.TakeThisOut@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
> justisaur.TakeThisOut@gmail.com says...
> >
> > Gerry Quinn wrote:
> > > In article <1164561780.174228.145910.TakeThisOut@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
> > > justisaur.TakeThisOut@gmail.com says...
> >
> > > > Instead of fudging around with all this stuff and making you use
> > > > 'normal' just so you don't keep hitting your companions and missing the
> > > > enemy they could have made it so spellcasting was instantaneous so the
> > > > spell hits where it's targeted at that moment, and just have you sit
> > > > around 'casting' for the 6 seconds afterward.
> > >
> > > Or do as in WoW and have the fireball track the target after it's
> > > launched. It would have to be given the option of targeting an enemy
> > > rather than a location, of course.
> >
> > It will do that o.k. The problem is it takes around 3 seconds to cast
> > the spell, and being an area spell, if you do that, they will have
> > engaged you by then and you'll be fireballing your party.
>
> OK. Of course WoW deals with this issue in the simplest fashion -
> spells affect solely enemies or friends.
>
> So how does PnP deal with the issue? Do monsters just sit and wait
> until the fireball hits, or does the GM fudge it by saying "You blast
> the orcs for 16. Smoking and screaming, they leap the last five yards
> of floor and are on you..."

As I've said before, PnP handles it by having targeting at the end of
casting. So it doesn't matter if you've spent 6 seconds standing
around shouting and waving your arms like a mad man, or a whole minute.
At the end you target, and everything is reasonably instantaneous from
there. Of course there are discreet rounds for everybody as it's turn
based, so the orcs sit around while the wizard is casting his fireball
in appearance.

- Justisaur
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

In article <1164848420.588797.49690.DeleteThis@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
justisaur.DeleteThis@gmail.com says...
> Gerry Quinn wrote:

> > So how does PnP deal with the issue? Do monsters just sit and wait
> > until the fireball hits, or does the GM fudge it by saying "You blast
> > the orcs for 16. Smoking and screaming, they leap the last five yards
> > of floor and are on you..."
>
> As I've said before, PnP handles it by having targeting at the end of
> casting. So it doesn't matter if you've spent 6 seconds standing
> around shouting and waving your arms like a mad man, or a whole minute.
> At the end you target, and everything is reasonably instantaneous from
> there. Of course there are discreet rounds for everybody as it's turn
> based, so the orcs sit around while the wizard is casting his fireball
> in appearance.

I see - so it is that they have failed to adapt the DnD system for non
turn-based combat.

- Gerry Quinn
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

Thus spake "WDS" <Bill DeleteThis @seurer.net>, 29 Nov 2006 07:36:00 -0800, Anno Domini:

>On Nov 28, 2:12 pm, Nostromo <nos... DeleteThis @forme.org> wrote:
>> That's where G3 seems so much more realistic & rewarding. You actually have
>> to find teleporter stones in each city & when you use them they're exactly
>> that - instant magical travel, not some weird time compression where nothing
>> ever happens. But you have to get there the hard way first (at least once) &
>> then find the TP stone, which is not always in an obvious place (some are
>> easy to miss). So, at least it makes you feel like you've earnt the
>> privilege, whereas Ob just hands it over on a silver platter from the start,
>> at least for all the major locations.
>
>So in practice they work exactly the same way with two trivial
>differences:
>
>1) In Oblivion the half dozen major cities are already open to you but
>you have to get to the other hundreds of places "the hard way first".
>2) In Gothic you have to find a teleporter stone before you can
>teleport "which is not always in an obvious place (some are easy to
>miss)".
>
>I don't see finding some hidden thing as "earning the privilege".

The mechanism justifies the means - it makes sense (in a magic world sort of
way), whereas Ob just throws the entire problem aside with a time dilation
engine solution which ignores anything that might happen in between. You
tell me which is more 'realistic' & self-consistent?

--
"Gothic is nothing for noobs." - Gabriele Neukam 31/10

Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: New To RPG Games 

Nostromo wrote:
>> 1) In Oblivion the half dozen major cities are already open to you
>> but you have to get to the other hundreds of places "the hard way
>> first". 2) In Gothic you have to find a teleporter stone before you
>> can teleport "which is not always in an obvious place (some are easy
>> to miss)".
>>
>> I don't see finding some hidden thing as "earning the privilege".
>
> The mechanism justifies the means - it makes sense (in a magic world
> sort of way), whereas Ob just throws the entire problem aside with a
> time dilation engine solution which ignores anything that might
> happen in between. You tell me which is more 'realistic' &
> self-consistent?

I can tell you which is potentially a helluva lot less aggravating,
especially for a CRPG newb.

I think even you'll have to admit that G3 includes if not the modern version
of "pixel hunts" something very closely approaching them.

--
chainbreaker
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