RPG Report & Planescape: Torment

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 01:54:21 GMT, Zaghadka <zaghadka.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Honestly, I think the only reason we see those games overseas is because they
>get developed for the Japanese audience, which still enjoys a cerebral game. As
>I understand it, we don't see half the stuff they get in Japan. Just the cream
>of the crop. Is that correct?

That is my understanding. In fact, for those of us using PS2s and not
in the US, it's even worse. Japan gets all the games, the USA gets
~45% of those, and maybe 50-60% of _that_ gets released in Europe and
Australia, usually after a delay of between 6 months and 2 years. I
don't know what the situation with international releases is for the
Wii.
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Ross Ridge <rridge DeleteThis @caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>In terms of console RPGs, I think almost most all Japanese games do
>in fact make it over to North America. The ones that don't tend to be
>remakes, or obscure even in Japan. It's a bit different for handhelds
>RPGs, though, they're less likely to make it over.

Kendrick Kerwin Chua <kendrick DeleteThis @nospam.io> wrote:
>I don't believe this is necessarily the case. The biggest sellers are
>certainly localized, thanks in part to years of familiarity. But some of
>the most representative games are never brought over, and for a variety of
>reasons. Sakura Taisen is a tactical RPG with a relationship subgame, and
>it spawned four sequels and ports to three different platforms.

Sakura Taisen is a weird tactical dating sim and most recent releases
in the series for consoles have been remakes. If you look at the
current state console RPGs, you'll find there's very few new original
RPGs released for the PlayStation 2 or any newer console in Japan that
weren't brought over to North America. Things were different back when
Sakura Taisen was first released back in 1996. If it were being released
for the first time today, I'd bet there would be some company willing
to localize it. Consider Steambot Cronicles (Bumpy Trot in Japan),
it's a wierd hybrid game, in a similar setting as Sakura Taisen, much
less popular and it got relased here.

> The other one that comes to mind is Utawarerumono, which is a grid-based
>tactical RPG whose story segments feature nudity and sexuality not easily
>edited out of the plot. Not obscure or redundant at all, but also not
>something that would easily enter an American market.

It was released originally for the PC, which in Japan pretty much by
definition means that it was obscure. The console version is a remake.

>Zag's statement about the cream of the crop being localized is fairly
>accurate, although in my opinion there's terrific stuff that doesn't make
>it to these shores. When publishers are judging game value, they're
>looking at potential sales rather than qualities that we would rate highly
>as players.

Localization is cheap however. The potential sales don't need to be very
high to justify bringing a game over. That's why you see third party
publishers "pulling" RPGs over from Japan. If a game doesn't make it
over, even an obscure or niche title, it's probably to do it being in
a weird genre, derived from an manga/anime series with little exposure
here, and/or because the original publishers demanded unreasonable
licencing terms.

>I've always wondered how localization works the other way arround.
>Morrowind was moderately popular in Japan, and I remember asking about how
>the issue of language formality was addressed as your character grew in
>social importance.

Well, translation is usually done out of context, string by string.
I expect, at best, the translation reflected the apparent level of
familiarity and respect in orginal dialog.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge DeleteThis @csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
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Zaghadka <president DeleteThis @whitehouse.gov> wrote:
>Baldur's Gate 2 notwithstanding, of course. That also had an excellent story.
>It sold like gangbusters too. I wonder why nobody continued along that path? I
>suspect it doesn't scale well with modern graphics hardware and voiceovers.

Well, Bioware did pretty much continue along that path. While Neverwinter
Nights sorta veered off the path by expecting players to make up their
own stories, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect and I assume their
upcoming Dragon Age all are story driven RPGs like Baldur's Gate.

>I suspect that full voice acting killed my favorite sort of game. My ears still
>bleed when I hear that one female voice in Oblivion! I think that sort of game
>*requires* text or it gets too expensive to produce.

Yah. I cringe when I see some reviewer complain about the lack of voice
acting in a game and complain about having to read too much text.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge DeleteThis @csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
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Thus spake Michael Cecil <macecil.DeleteThis@gmail.com>, Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:02:12
-0500, Anno Domini:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:27:57 +1000, Nostromo <nostromo.DeleteThis@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>>Ditto. So long as I can upload my own Jenna Jameson avatars >8^D
>>(ok, I lie - I don't really go for blondes at all <G>)
>
>Jenna and Darth - both more machine now than human.
>
>/shudders

Yeah, except where Darth IS the Force, Jenna is now all but the Farce. Hey,
don't blame my country for a ridiculous predilection towards silicon .

--
Nostromo
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This message is not archived
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In article <fulseg$6c0$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Nostromo <nostromo.TakeThisOut@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>I think voice acting should be reserved for cut scenes you can skip at
>will ala Guild Wars, where they insert your own character's voice in a
>minimalist way (perhaps give you a choice of a few female voices at
>character creation, though I appreciate that could amount to a LOT of
>repeated speech recording).

Some games have this level of customization, albeit for non-language uses
of voice. Phantasy Star Universe lets you pick one of ten voices for each
gender, and then you can customize the pitch up or down as it suits the
age and/or size of the character. This is mostly for sword-swinging or
spellcasting exclamations, although the different voices each have
unique sarcastic things to say when resurrection of the character occurs.

>Ultimately, if we had speech synthesis half as good as our CGI this
>wouldn't be an issue & we wouldn't even think twice about voice actors.
>We can (almost) get complex facial expressions down pat now in games,
>but our e-voice technology still sounds like Stephen Hawking - what's up
>with that? :-/

There's not enough information in written text to describe how and when
certain words should be said. We understand as human beings where the
emphasis and pauses go, but there's no way to get a machine to know this
without lots of numerical data associated with each word in context. By
the time you get through all the math, it's just easier to record dialogue
performed by a real actor.

As I understand it, artificial language is easier to do the more rigid the
ruleset is. There's a Japanese singing application I can't remember the
name of that produces a fairly passable female voice, but for song lyrics
only. The English language has different rules depending on regional
accents and age-appropriate word choices and how much Yiddish you learned
from watching old Looney Tunes. Can you imagine trying to get a computer
to understand the difference between "*I* should pay for this?" and "I
should *pay* for this?"

-KKC, up too late at night.
--
-- "Arabs are the new Asians, at least in media. Stereotypes gave way to
deeper roles over 40 years of assimilation into western culture. Bruce Lee
kicks ass, Jackie Chan gets laughs, B.D. Wong is a top. Arabs have | kendrick
had Klinger and Monk. Clearly, they have some catching up to do." | @io.com
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On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:37:54 -0700 (PDT), Allan C Cybulskie
<allan_c_cybulskie.RemoveThis@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Wasn't it Morrowind that was criticized for this with its
>lock-picking and diplomacy mini-games?

You're thinking of Oblivion. Morrowind used pure skill checks for both
of these situations, though the player could choose exactly which sort
of diplomacy they were trying to use(praise/insult/bribe/intimidate)
and of course spells could replace skills when they were available.
Of course, many of the fans considered the development for consoles as
being a major reason for the introduction of minigames.
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On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:18:16 +1000, Greg Johnson <greg.gsj DeleteThis @gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:37:54 -0700 (PDT), Allan C Cybulskie
><allan_c_cybulskie DeleteThis @yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> Wasn't it Morrowind that was criticized for this with its
>>lock-picking and diplomacy mini-games?
>
>You're thinking of Oblivion. Morrowind used pure skill checks for both
>of these situations, though the player could choose exactly which sort
>of diplomacy they were trying to use(praise/insult/bribe/intimidate)
>and of course spells could replace skills when they were available.
>Of course, many of the fans considered the development for consoles as
>being a major reason for the introduction of minigames.

Just wait until you get to play the mini-game when you try and reload your
machine gun in the middle of a battle in Fallout 3! It adds sooo much to
the game!
--
Michael Cecil
Now filtering Google Groups, OE and Idiots
http://macecil.googlepages.com/index.htm
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In article <fula0g$tjj$1@rumours.uwaterloo.ca>,
Ross Ridge <rridge.RemoveThis@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>Ross Ridge <rridge.RemoveThis@caffeine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>>In terms of console RPGs, I think almost most all Japanese games do
>>in fact make it over to North America. The ones that don't tend to be
>
>Kendrick Kerwin Chua <kendrick.RemoveThis@nospam.io> wrote:
>>I don't believe this is necessarily the case. The biggest sellers are
>>certainly localized, thanks in part to years of familiarity. But some of
>>the most representative games are never brought over, and for a variety of
>>reasons. Sakura Taisen is a tactical RPG with a relationship subgame, and
>>it spawned four sequels and ports to three different platforms.
>
>Sakura Taisen is a weird tactical dating sim and most recent releases
>in the series for consoles have been remakes. If you look at the
>current state console RPGs, you'll find there's very few new original
>RPGs released for the PlayStation 2 or any newer console in Japan that
>weren't brought over to North America. Things were different back when
>Sakura Taisen was first released back in 1996. If it were being released
>for the first time today, I'd bet there would be some company willing
>to localize it. Consider Steambot Cronicles (Bumpy Trot in Japan),
>it's a wierd hybrid game, in a similar setting as Sakura Taisen, much
>less popular and it got relased here.

I can see that. I suppose that my perspective is shaped by disappointment
that so many RPGs that I was looking forward to never got translated. Shin
Megami Tensei 9 on the Xbox comes to mind. But I would say as late as
2004, the ratio of localized games to JPN-exclusives was maybe one in
five. Of course, it's arguable whether or not the other four games in any
batch are worth an American gamer's time.

>>Zag's statement about the cream of the crop being localized is fairly
>>accurate, although in my opinion there's terrific stuff that doesn't make
>>it to these shores. When publishers are judging game value, they're
>>looking at potential sales rather than qualities that we would rate highly
>>as players.
>
>Localization is cheap however. The potential sales don't need to be very
>high to justify bringing a game over. That's why you see third party
>publishers "pulling" RPGs over from Japan. If a game doesn't make it
>over, even an obscure or niche title, it's probably to do it being in
>a weird genre, derived from an manga/anime series with little exposure
>here, and/or because the original publishers demanded unreasonable
>licencing terms.

Localization doesn't have to be cheap, but you're right that it's
frequently done with an eye towards the bottom line. But if you leave out
all the spoken dialogue and half of the minigames and never bother with
the two expansion disks, then you can certainly do it inexpensively. The
only risk is the wrath of Internet complainers.

-KKC, scouring the city for old 8-bit computers.
--
-- "Arabs are the new Asians, at least in media. Stereotypes gave way to
deeper roles over 40 years of assimilation into western culture. Bruce Lee
kicks ass, Jackie Chan gets laughs, B.D. Wong is a top. Arabs have | kendrick
had Klinger and Monk. Clearly, they have some catching up to do." | @io.com
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Thus spake Michael Cecil <macecil RemoveThis @gmail.com>, Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:00:51
-0500, Anno Domini:

>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:18:16 +1000, Greg Johnson <greg.gsj RemoveThis @gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 03:37:54 -0700 (PDT), Allan C Cybulskie
>><allan_c_cybulskie RemoveThis @yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Wasn't it Morrowind that was criticized for this with its
>>>lock-picking and diplomacy mini-games?
>>
>>You're thinking of Oblivion. Morrowind used pure skill checks for both
>>of these situations, though the player could choose exactly which sort
>>of diplomacy they were trying to use(praise/insult/bribe/intimidate)
>>and of course spells could replace skills when they were available.
>>Of course, many of the fans considered the development for consoles as
>>being a major reason for the introduction of minigames.
>
>Just wait until you get to play the mini-game when you try and reload your
>machine gun in the middle of a battle in Fallout 3! It adds sooo much to
>the game!

ROFL!

--
Nostromo
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Ross Ridge wrote:
> Zaghadka <president.DeleteThis@whitehouse.gov> wrote:
>> Baldur's Gate 2 notwithstanding, of course. That also had an excellent story.
>> It sold like gangbusters too. I wonder why nobody continued along that path? I
>> suspect it doesn't scale well with modern graphics hardware and voiceovers.
>
> Well, Bioware did pretty much continue along that path. While Neverwinter
> Nights sorta veered off the path by expecting players to make up their
> own stories, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect and I assume their
> upcoming Dragon Age all are story driven RPGs like Baldur's Gate.
>
>> I suspect that full voice acting killed my favorite sort of game. My ears still
>> bleed when I hear that one female voice in Oblivion! I think that sort of game
>> *requires* text or it gets too expensive to produce.
>
> Yah. I cringe when I see some reviewer complain about the lack of voice
> acting in a game and complain about having to read too much text.

That's because they're under 25 & have adapted to listen faster than
they can think. Just imagine what their reading skills are like.

--
Nostromo
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With a deafening roar and a whoosh of spray, Nostromo swings about and
addresses the awaiting newsgroup...

> Ross Ridge wrote:

>> Yah. I cringe when I see some reviewer complain about the lack of
>> voice acting in a game and complain about having to read too much
>> text.
>
> That's because they're under 25 & have adapted to listen faster than
> they can think. Just imagine what their reading skills are like.

Sounds to me like they had better pray they never lose their reading finger
in an accident.

--
Paulon Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-
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On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:29:42 +0000 (UTC), Paulon <-@-.-> wrote:

>With a deafening roar and a whoosh of spray, Nostromo swings about and
>addresses the awaiting newsgroup...
>
>> Ross Ridge wrote:
>
>>> Yah. I cringe when I see some reviewer complain about the lack of
>>> voice acting in a game and complain about having to read too much
>>> text.
>>
>> That's because they're under 25 & have adapted to listen faster than
>> they can think. Just imagine what their reading skills are like.
>
>Sounds to me like they had better pray they never lose their reading finger
>in an accident.

Freaky. Do they read Braille or do they actually have eyeballs in their
fingers?
--
Michael Cecil
Now filtering Google Groups, OE and Idiots
http://macecil.googlepages.com/index.htm
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