RPG Report & Planescape: Torment

Thus spake rpgs rock dvds <rpgsrockdvds.DeleteThis@hotmail.co.uk>, Sat, 15 Mar 2008
00:29:13 -0700 (PDT), Anno Domini:

>On 15 Mar, 06:09, Inlaw Biker <gmonsqua....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>(snip)
>
>> The question now is, what's next?  Morrowmind, Elder Scrolls III is
>> probably next, but right now I'm playing the Neverhood again.  I am
>> first and foremost an Adventure junkie, so maybe that's why Torment
>> appealed to me.
>
>Re: PS:T, I must get that game installed ASAP!
>
>Re: Morrowind, I recommend going to somewhere like planetelderscrolls,
>and DL'ing lots of "hall of fame" mods, such as hi-hes textures,
>better bodies & clothes, and loads of other very cool goodies.

Maybe he can find a story there too, but I doubt it <EG>

--
Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

Thus spake Inlaw Biker <gmonsquared.RemoveThis@yahoo.com>, Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:09:12
-0700 (PDT), Anno Domini:

>I wanted to report back on my RPG quest. Last month I'd asked for a
>backlog of RPGs I "must try." My collection of classic RPGs has now
>grown into something of a hall of fame or computer games, beginning
>around 1999. I decided, based on its reputation, to begin with
>Planescape: Torment. Now I rather wish I had not...

<snip>

It's just that good, ain't it?

>The question now is, what's next? Morrowmind, Elder Scrolls III is
>probably next, but right now I'm playing the Neverhood again. I am
>first and foremost an Adventure junkie, so maybe that's why Torment
>appealed to me.

If you're an adventure junky steer clear of TES sandboxes is my very honest
& vehement advice. Hybrid rpgs like Anachronox, VTMB & more recently The
Witcher may be far further up your alley Greg.

--
Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

Thus spake mcv <mcvmcv.TakeThisOut@xs4all.nl>, 15 Mar 2008 09:07:00 GMT, Anno Domini:

>Inlaw Biker <gmonsquared.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Now I've
>> finished it and I'm probably spoiled for other RPG's. This game is
>> unspeakably good.
>
>That's a problem I've experienced too. After Torment, any other CRPG
>is just lame. It's taken me years before I was able to move on.

Fallout 1/2 are certainly in the same league, as is VTMB & The Witcher imo,
if we're talking storyline, 3-dimensional NPCs & you having a real impact on
the game world & flow.

>> I also got all the way to the end without the bronze egg. Walking all
>> the way back to Pharod's to pick it up just never occurred to me.
>> When I realized my mistake I restored a save point and went to get it
>> and re-played the end. I would think a better hint to go pick it up
>> would've helped, or did I miss that?
>
>I don't even remember the bronze egg. What did you need that for?
>Could be I've gone back for it too, but I really don't know anymore.

I also don't recall that. Then again, I musta had 2 dozen items I lugged
around & never worked out what they were for either heh.

>But the Modron Maze isn't really an antegral part of the game. It's
>funny, but it has a very different atmosphere, and if anything, it
>might actually interrupt the flow of the rest of the story. But it
>wouldn't hurt to go back to an old save just to check it out.

It was a hoot.

>> Right when the Modrons reveal that the cube is a portal,
>> you're at a pivotal part of the game - the Brothel. I found the
>> Brothel confusing and ignored the Modrons, they just didn't seem
>> important at the time.
>
>The Brothel is way more important (and fun!) than the Modrons, IMO,
>so you made the right choice. On the other hand, I think it's possible
>to use the cube later.
>
>> Some other thoughts... these scenes impressed me. Going back to visit
>> Mebbeth after Ravel is dead.
>
>I don't think I ever did that. Another scene I missed?

Same here. Mind you, I still haven't finished the game *blush* (playing on &
off on the work laptop, almost completed Curst I think).

>> Of course, the finale.
>
>I think after Ravel I hurried too much towards the finale and didn't
>quite get everything out of it that I should have. Friends told me it
>was mainly the first half that was brilliant and offered lots of
>freedom, whereas the bit after Ravel was more linear and less interesting.
>But everybody keeps saying stuff about the finale that I simply don't
>remember. I guess I need to replay the game just to experience the
>finale a bit better.
>
>> What I found incredibly immersive was
>> finding that my own character was so involved in so many of the
>> stories.
>
>This is the one thing where Torment truly shines, especially compared
>to other CRPGs. In other games, you're just some nameless schmuck who
>runs everybody else's errands, but here it turns out you've been
>involved in lots of great, dramatic and evil stuff, lots of plots and
>subplots really revolve around you. You're not interchangable, it
>really is about you! And although many other CRPGs have tried the
>same thing (you're here to fulfill some prophesy, have been involved
>with the bad guy but lost your memory, etc), none of them succeeded
>at capturing that feeling the way Torment did.

The Witcher comes close. I think there's something to be said about NOT
starting off as "Generic Hero 3245" & being a bit more locked into a
background, personality and history (along with stats/skills/etc). It gives
the developers far more focus & ability to customise the story & universe
specifically to you. Bit hard to do effectively if you're a half-elven mage
chick or a Orc warrior or a dwarven priest, heh.

>> The question now is, what's next? Morrowmind, Elder Scrolls III is
>> probably next, but right now I'm playing the Neverhood again. I am
>> first and foremost an Adventure junkie, so maybe that's why Torment
>> appealed to me.
>
>Morrowind is nowhere near as great. It offers you an incredible
>amount of freedom, you can go anywhere, do anything, pick what quests
>to fulfill and even how, but it lacks a compelling story, good
>dialogue, etc. NPCs exist to give you quests, and you exist to run
>those errands. Ofcourse there is some big plot, and ofcourse you're
>destined to play a part in it, but you can ignore it if you like,
>and it's entirely possible to miss it completely if you're not
>careful.

Or if you're just not looking for it, meh. My dozen hours with MW & 30 with
Oblivion left me with hardly a main plot worth talking about (Oblivion's
actually breaks the game if you follow it too early). In either case they
were both uninteresting & contrived anyway. I just don't see where the
*roleplaying* is, when everything is just a cardboard cutout so you can play
in an ever-widening sandbox. It's like acting in one of those solo plays,
except there's no audience, almost like a mmo with only you in it. Meh.

--
Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:18:55 GMT, "Morgan" <Nospam.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:

>"Inlaw Biker" <gmonsquared.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:d3a07fec-466f-49b8-af18-b0dc5749f2b4@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com
>> On Mar 15, 4:24 am, "Morgan" <Nos....DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote:
>> > "Inlaw Biker" <gmonsqua....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >
>> > news:71a9b340-71a3-47ae-95ed-f30e51a48b26@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com
>> >
>> > > I wanted to report back on my RPG quest. Last month
>> > > I'd asked for a backlog of RPGs I "must try." My
>> > > collection of classic RPGs has now grown into
>> > > something of a hall of fame or computer games,
>> > > beginning around 1999. I decided, based on its
>> > > reputation, to begin with Planescape: Torment. Now I
>> > > rather wish I had not...
>> >
>> > So, do you have your own answer to the question?
>>
>> Sure, don't you? Like most good literature, the final
>> meaning of the game is open to interpretation. If they
>> have to spell it it doesn't have the same impact.
>
>I'm still not sure of my answer, the Nameless one's answer was regret as I
>recall though.
>
I opted for 'nothing', iirc. "Nothing can change the nature of a
man."

Damn - now *I* want to reinstall it !
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

Inlaw Biker <gmonsquared RemoveThis @yahoo.com> looked up from reading the entrails
of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
<snip>
>I also never used the Modron Cube. Was there a major dialog or quest
>hint that was supposed to lead me there? I feel like I missed a major
>part of the game here. I'm not even sure how I got the cube to be
>honest. Right when the Modrons reveal that the cube is a portal,
>you're at a pivotal part of the game - the Brothel. I found the
>Brothel confusing and ignored the Modrons, they just didn't seem
>important at the time.

Among other things the cube gets you a potential party member (assuming
you find him in the modron maze accessed via the cube.) I think there's
also a high level spell to be had in there, but it's been ages since I
played and I can't be sure.

>Some other thoughts... these scenes impressed me. Going back to visit
>Mebbeth after Ravel is dead. Stale Mary, the champion of zombies.
>The trap/shrine my previous self had built. The alley that re-
>arranges itself. Coaxmetal - maybe the most impressive being in the
>game. Of course, the finale. What I found incredibly immersive was
>finding that my own character was so involved in so many of the
>stories.
>
>At any rate I now fully count Planescape: Torment as one of the top 10
>games I've ever played. And I've played a lot of them. I thank you
>folks for suggesting it.
>
>The question now is, what's next? Morrowmind, Elder Scrolls III is
>probably next, but right now I'm playing the Neverhood again. I am
>first and foremost an Adventure junkie, so maybe that's why Torment
>appealed to me.

Morrowind has a lot of things going for it, especially now with beefier
machines that won't strain to run it.
There's a hell of a lot of good (and bad) mods to be added to tweak the
graphics or gameplay or whatnot.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:09:12 -0700 (PDT), Inlaw Biker
<gmonsquared.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>The question now is, what's next? Morrowmind, Elder Scrolls III is
>probably next, but right now I'm playing the Neverhood again. I am
>first and foremost an Adventure junkie, so maybe that's why Torment
>appealed to me.

If what you're after is Adventure, Morrowind is not particularly
suitable for you. What it has to offer is a well-built alien world,
with many interesting details, and many potential plots to get
involved in, but no single well-defined story. Because it's so open to
different playstyles and characters, it loses out on providing a
driving reason for you to follow any particular path. Unlike Torment,
the world of Tamriel is only about you if you want it that way, and if
you don't have a strong idea of what you want your character to be,
you can easily get so distracted that you completely lose track of the
game.

>Greg.

Another Greg.
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

Greg Johnson <greg.gsj.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:09:12 -0700 (PDT), Inlaw Biker
> <gmonsquared.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>The question now is, what's next? Morrowmind, Elder Scrolls III is
>>probably next, but right now I'm playing the Neverhood again. I am
>>first and foremost an Adventure junkie, so maybe that's why Torment
>>appealed to me.
>
> If what you're after is Adventure, Morrowind is not particularly
> suitable for you. What it has to offer is a well-built alien world,
> with many interesting details, and many potential plots to get
> involved in, but no single well-defined story. Because it's so open to
> different playstyles and characters, it loses out on providing a
> driving reason for you to follow any particular path. Unlike Torment,
> the world of Tamriel is only about you if you want it that way, and if
> you don't have a strong idea of what you want your character to be,
> you can easily get so distracted that you completely lose track of the
> game.

Very well put. That's exactly Morrowind's weakness and strength at the
same time. You *can* make your own story in Morrowind if you want to,
but you'll have to do it all yourself, and it'll only be in your head.
Turning Morrowind into a roleplaying game is hard work, and it's very
easy to slip. The game doesn't encourage or reward that kind of play
at all. It's a sandbox where you can be what you want to be, but if
you don't know, chances are you'll be a nameless schmuck running other
people's errands.


mcv.
--
Science is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. It's a tool.
A very powerful tool, but not the only tool. And if only that which
could be verified scientifically was considered real, then nearly all
of human experience would be not-real. -- Zachriel
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

"Mark Morrison" <blank DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:7teot3h0vocd2kpuea74hobup8ti855f7g@4ax.com

> > I'm still not sure of my answer, the Nameless one's
> > answer was regret as I recall though.
> >
> I opted for 'nothing', iirc. "Nothing can change the
> nature of a man."
>
> Damn - now *I* want to reinstall it !

IIRC if your wisdom/Int is high enough then the Origanal Namless One tells
you his own answer near the end. It might be my memory playing tricks on me
though.
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 08:33:01 -0700, "boolWorm" <zip> wrote:

>
>"Inlaw Biker" <gmonsquared.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:71a9b340-71a3-47ae-95ed-f30e51a48b26@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>> This is one of those rare, transcendent (pun intended) games that
>> breaks new ground. It might best describe it as an "Adventure - RPG -
>> Interactive Novel." What's amazing is that it succeeds at all three.
>
>How does PS:T succeed as an rpg? The combat and character advancement was
>completely vapid.
>
>PS:T was a great adventure game and "Interactive Novel", as you say. But
>its RPG elements were tacked on. If one had to categorize PS:T, it fits
>much better into the Adventure Game category than RPG.

I'd have to say that it did succeed as an RPG, but in a
non-traditional way. The combat was almost always trivial, but the
character advancement worked quite well, because of the effect that
your stats had on the options available to you at any given time.
Whether you'd put that last point into Strength or Charisma really did
matter in Torment, something which is all too rare in most modern
RPGs.
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

On Mar 15, 12:34 pm, "boolWorm" <zip> wrote:
> "Gerry Quinn" <ger....TakeThisOut@indigo.ie> wrote in message
>
> news:MPG.224605b98329fd9f98976c@news.indigo.ie...
>
>
>
> > In article <V7idnRpbCPN8dkbanZ2dnUVZ_qeln....TakeThisOut@comcast.com>, "boolWorm"
> > <zip> says...
>
> >> "Inlaw Biker" <gmonsqua....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:71a9b340-71a3-47ae-95ed-f30e51a48b26@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > This is one of those rare, transcendent (pun intended) games that
> >> > breaks new ground. It might best describe it as an "Adventure - RPG -
> >> > Interactive Novel." What's amazing is that it succeeds at all three.
>
> >> How does PS:T succeed as an rpg? The combat and character advancement
> >> was
> >> completely vapid.
>
> > Are you trolling?
>
> > It's generally accepted that a focus on stats and levels is something of
> > a blight on role-playing, or more exactly a strategic/tactical appendage
> > that often tends to overshadow the role-playing body.
>
> No, it's not generally accepted that stats and combat (to rephrase) are a
> blight on roleplaying games. Wihtout them what you're left with is an
> adventure game. Think about it. A character's choices affecting the game
> world and any other non-stat element of RPGs can be in adventure games
> easily. Adventure games can be purely "role playing games", if you want to
> parse "role playing game" as its literal definition instead of the
> connotations of stats-based game rules that it has acquired. Do you think
> rulebooks for PnP RPGs have page after page of rules about what one can do
> to "role play within a story" or are they devoted to stats and their effects
> within the rule system? Why is one PnP RPG system better than another?
> Does one allow better stories and character interaction than another? Of
> course not. But the rule system matters. And I'd love to see one that
> wasn't based on stats in one form or another.

The old adventure/RPG battle. Basically, I agree with you. In the
context of video/computer games, RPGs do require a stat/skill system,
if not, they'd be in the adventure games category.
What's the difference? Well, in an adventure game I may have an enemy
in front, to pass that obstacle I might need a sword that I should
find somewhere else. If I have it, I win, if I don't have it, I have
to find it. Some adventure games give you different ways of
accomplishing it (find the sword to win, use scissors to cut a rope so
the lamp above the enemy falls on him, etc). RPGs rely on stats to
overcome obstacles.
Now, I've always hated this definition. 20 or so years ago when the
genres were developing, many RPGs were also adventure games (example:
Quest for Glory series). Not many adventure games had stats as the
purists wouldn't like that back then. I completely preferred those
RPGs of old, with there adventure/RPG mix. you had to use your brain,
in addition to increasing your character's stats.
Nowadays you have the 'action' RPGs, much more marketable, but making
for much shallower games imho. In the same situation above, you won't
need the sword/scissors to win as the adventure games had it, or you
won't even need a character with stats and skills (although you do
have them, for marketing purposes), just just need good reflexes and
lots of clicking/button smashing/hit and retreat. Sad.
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

On Mar 15, 8:50 pm, Leo <Anonym... RemoveThis @anonymous.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 09:34:15 -0700, "boolWorm" <zip> blabbed:
>
> >No, it's not generally accepted that stats and combat (to rephrase) are a
> >blight on roleplaying games. Wihtout them what you're left with is an
> >adventure game. Think about it. A character's choices affecting the game
> >world and any other non-stat element of RPGs can be in adventure games
> >easily. Adventure games can be purely "role playing games", if you want to
> >parse "role playing game" as its literal definition instead of the
> >connotations of stats-based game rules that it has acquired. Do you think
> >rulebooks for PnP RPGs have page after page of rules about what one can do
> >to "role play within a story" or are they devoted to stats and their effects
> >within the rule system? Why is one PnP RPG system better than another?
> >Does one allow better stories and character interaction than another? Of
> >course not. But the rule system matters. And I'd love to see one that
> >wasn't based on stats in one form or another.
>
> I agree w/Gerry on this one. Not so much that stats and such
> are a blight on rpg's, they go well w/rpg's, often. But I don't think
> they are a necessary part of an rpg. A game can be an rpg still,
> w/out them. I consider the old choose-your-own-adventure books I read
> as a kid to be rpg's even, the ones for younger kids had no stats or
> dice rolling or anything other than making choices that changed how
> the story progressed. The more complicated ones did have dice, stats,
> etc.., and so were far more tactical, and were also great, but felt no
> more like role playing than the ones w/out. It was the control over
> the story of the character that made it feel like role playing, not
> the winning of tactical battles. In fact, if I spend 100% of my
> decision making time in a game making decisions that effect story,
> then that game feels much more like i'm playing a role, than if I
> spend 90% of my decision making timme in the game on tactical battles
> and only 10% on story altering decisions. Tactical battles themselves
> don't usually even alter the story after they are won other than - if
> you win, the story goes on, if you die, game over. This makes them
> more like an elaborate puzzle in an adventure game than any kind of
> role playing element, you must solve this puzzle to continue. (I
> remember in freespace 2 you could lose missions and continue on, but
> having won or lost would change what missions were available to you
> later, so that would be an example of battles actually affecting story
> rather than just being a mandatory obstacle).
>
<snip>
That is all true and nice, but you just have to remember that RPG is
not the same as CRPG. Yes, a real RPG is one in which you determine
the fate of the character by making decisions. But when talking CRPGs
that's not correct. In your definition, the abundant japanese 'dating
sims' would be RPGs.
Do I like it? no, I would love it if when I see RPG in a computer or
console game description, was the real meaning of RPG in which we both
agree, but sadly, it's not. It just means there are stats/skills,
plain and simple.
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

"Leo" <Anonymous.DeleteThis@anonymous.com> wrote in message
news:tpoot350u827ekitmndj9dgkvuaf1poqks@4ax.com...

> I think a game can be both an adventure game and an rpg too,
> both a strategy game and an rpg as well. But again, arguing over the
> distinction misses the point.

I would have to disagree, to the extent that words and labels matter. I
appreciate that you think the "rpg" genre has drifted from what you want it
to be, or what you like about it, but I can say the same thing. It's just
that you and I like different things, and I would consider what you like
about rpgs to already have a perfectly servicable category: adventure game.
Myself, I like stats and a good system of rules for battle and exploration
and items etc. There is no existing game category which encompasses what I
like, other than RPG. So I'm a bit disappointed when people hold up PS:T as
the epitome of what they're looking for in an RPG, because what they like
about it is its adventure game aspects rather than its RPG aspects.

The best stats based RPG of the past decade was Wizardry 8, but it's hard to
find anybody who even appreciates the game from that perspective - even
recognizes that it was well done.
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment 

"Gerry Quinn" <gerryq.RemoveThis@indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:MPG.224757df998a5144989774@news.indigo.ie...

> I don't deride the older games that pioneered the field, and did their
> best with the technology available. I even enjoy some of those games,
> and games like them. But the CRPG genre is not bound or defined by the
> tropes they over-used, and its future does not lie in cloning them.

Game design is a field that pre-dates PnP RPGs. The art of designing a
system of stats and rules for an RPG is broadly the same as went into
designing a board game 50 years ago.

This art of game design - that has nothing to do with the storytelling
aspects that you long for out of a game - will never be used up or dried
out. It can be completely abandoned as an irrelevant appendage to true
"gaming" however, and that would be unfortunate.

The funny thing is, while we argue over stats/ruleset vs story, the most
successful current single player cRPG games, Morrowind and Oblivion, are
abysmal failures in *both* aspects.

On the other hand, the most successful MMORPG, WoW, is successful precisely
because Blizzard understands stats/rulesset game design so well.
 >> Stay informed about: RPG Report & Planescape: Torment